Are You Saved Because You Believe OR Do You Believe Because You Are Saved?

[CoreIssue]

Disagree. Faith IN God is spiritual, and is gifted to men Viaa thee Lord God who IS Spirit.



Natural "faith", is not "spiritual faith". I would say that hinges more on secular "Confidence" rather than "spiritual Faith".



ANY man "HEARING" the Word of God is being Enlightened to the Truth.
Every man who is BELIEVING what he Hears, is being given FAITH from God, IN MEASURES.

A man who continues HEARING and BELIEVING, continues receiving the Gift of Measures Faith from God.

Thus IF the man Continues to INCREASE in Belief, so also is the man INCREASED in Faith.

It is when a man Begins to BE AFFECTED by his INCREASE in FAITH, the man is becoming PREPARED to CONFESS his Belief and Give His Life to the Lord God.

Once that Occurs..^^...the man becomes IN FAITH-FULLNESS unto Thee Lord God Almighty. And the man Remains so, forever, By the Power of God.

(Should the man NEVER make than Confession, AT ANY time he can stop believing, stop receiving measures of faith and be called having fallen from faith.)

Glory to God,
Taken

Well you have a problem.

If married do you have faith in your wife?

Do you have faith your car start at any time?

Do you have faith you can pay your bills?

Do you have faith you are along with a certain amount of years on this earth and no more?

God increases our faith by giving us more reason to have faith.

People who never repent and walk away do not lose the ability to have faith. They simply stop exercising the ability.

 

[Marymog]

Salvation is forgiveness of sin.

An innocent is not accountable for person, so there's nothing to forgive.

Sooooo an innocent can not obtain salvation because they had no sins to forgive?????

(I think that is what you are saying)

 

[CoreIssue]

Sooooo an innocent can not obtain salvation because they had no sins to forgive?????

(I think that is what you are saying)

Saved from what?

 

[Marymog]

Saved from what?

I guess I should be more clear so we are both on the same page.

Can/will an "innocent" go to heaven?

Mary

 

[CoreIssue]

I guess I should be more clear so we are both on the same page.

Can/will an "innocent" go to heaven?

Mary

Yes. They are not guilty of any sin to put them in hell.

We are told nothing about where such will be eternity.

Meaning in the new Jerusalem or outside on the new earth.

Nor are we told the physical and mental condition they will be in. The same level as in life or something else.

 

[Marymog]

Yes. They are not guilty of any sin to put them in hell.

We are told nothing about where such will be eternity.

Meaning in the new Jerusalem or outside on the new earth.

Nor are we told the physical and mental condition they will be in. The same level as in life or something else.

Sooooo innocents do obtain salvation......Why are you playing a word game with me?? I'm guessing because you have YOUR definition of salvation....

definition of salvation: deliverance from the power and effects of sin

Hence innocents have been delivered from the power/effects of sin. Not in the same way you and I (the normative way) but they have been delivered none the less.

Mary

 

[Enoch111]

Don't know if this is your example of Christians playing semantic games....or your understanding of Faith and Belief in a math equation.

It was you who tried to make faith and belief different. But my equation simply expressed what is in the Bible -- faith is belief and belief is faith.

 

[CoreIssue]

Sooooo innocents do obtain salvation......Why are you playing a word game with me?? I'm guessing because you have YOUR definition of salvation....

definition of salvation: deliverance from the power and effects of sin

Hence innocents have been delivered from the power/effects of sin. Not in the same way you and I (the normative way) but they have been delivered none the less.

Mary

No word games.

Salvation means cleansed from sin one is responsible for.

The innocent are not accountable.

 

[Dave L]

What does that prove?

It proves you cannot find free will in the flesh.

 

[CoreIssue]

It proves you cannot find free will in the flesh.

Only in your fantasies.

 

[Marymog]

No word games.

Salvation means cleansed from sin one is responsible for.

The innocent are not accountable.

Nope......I gave you the dictionary definition of sin....it doesn't mean what you say.

Thank you.

 

[CoreIssue]

Nope......I gave you the dictionary definition of sin....it doesn't mean what you say.

Thank you.

You deliberately are dodging.

You never deal with the issue of accountability.

 

[Marymog]

You deliberately are dodging.

You never deal with the issue of accountability.

And you have your definition which is NOT the same as the dictionary definition.....

 

[Marymog]

You deliberately are dodging.

You never deal with the issue of accountability.

A innocent can not be held accountable for sin.

They still obtain salvation even though they have no accountability. Innocents have been held from the power and effects of sin thru grace.

 

[Helen]

That is incorrect.

Small children and persons with mental disabilities are
Not saved. They were never held accountable for sin.

The others you mentioned are covered in the Bible, specifically Romans. They were judged by the law of conscience.

I think that was what she was trying to say, you just said it clearer.

C.S. Lewis believed that God will say to the many...." When you worshipped that mountain and called it, '...whatever..' , or when you worshipped that special tree by the name...'.whatever'...your heart was seeking Me, you just didn't know My Name."

He will judge our hearts and it's motivations...
Everyone...even small children and the grunting bush-man has conscience.

 

[Helen]

A innocent can not be held accountable for sin.

They still obtain salvation even though they have no accountability. Innocents have been held from the power and effects of sin thru grace.

Would you agree with my post #95 above?

I think you and Coreissue are saying the same thing differently.

 

[CoreIssue]

And you have your definition which is NOT the same as the dictionary definition.....

Deal with accountability and you have your answer.

 

[CoreIssue]

Would you agree with my post #95 above?

I think you and Coreissue are saying the same thing differently.

Actually were not.

She's talking about salvation from sin.

I am saying they were never accounted for sin, so nothing to be saved from.

Catholics believe in baptizing infants for salvation

 

[Marymog]

Would you agree with my post #95 above?

I think you and Coreissue are saying the same thing differently.

Thank you BG.....I appreciate your input. You are a joy to hear from and have given me good advise in the past.

I agree with you that Coreissue and I are saying the same thing differently.

However, @CoreIssue said Salvation means one is cleansed from sin one is responsible for. That is NOT what salvation is. Innocents (ex. infants who never sinned) have NO SIN so there is nothing to cleanse from them. Infants still obtain salvation. They obtain salvation thru grace, not cleansing.

Great quote from C.S. Lewis....thank you. That quote has to do with persons that are at the age of understanding, reason and accountability. Infants and mentally challenged people don't meet those criteria however they still obtain salvation.

Respectfully....Mary

 

[Marymog]

Deal with accountability and you have your answer.

Ummmm.....I have!!

Infants and mentally challenged people have no accountability. You and I do. They obtain salvation thru grace. We obtain it thru "cleansing" (aka forgiveness).

Hope that makes it clear for you.....