Are You Saved Because You Believe OR Do You Believe Because You Are Saved?

[Taken]

Since when have Christians started playing semantic games with the Gospel?

Not sure what you mean.

FAITH = BELIEVING = BELIEF = FAITH.

Don't know if this is your example of Christians playing semantic games....or your understanding of Faith and Belief in a math equation.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ezra]

i am saved because i have a KNOW SO SALVATION that you may know you have eternal life

 

[Taken]

The Bible speaks of people having their own faith

Sure. God makes that clear in His First Commandment;
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me".

and some having a special gift of stronger faith God.

Sure. Scripture teaches God dictates the measure unto a man of how much of the gift of faith a man shall receive.

Rom 12
[3] For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith..

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ezra]

Are You Saved Because You Believe OR Do You Believe Because You Are Saved?
This was a similar question to what Dave_L posted on his Profile page. This is posted with his permission.

Would any like to chime in?
Keep it umm, err, civil

may i answer with scripture?
John 17:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1 John 5:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.. its not a think so hope so maybe so i believe so..BUT a know so

 

[Harvest 1874]

So you must be a Jehovah's Witness (or some such adherent). But the Bible is very clear that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one God in three Persons.

Jehovah's Witnesses are not the only ones who ever disagreed with this God dishonoring and blasphemous doctrine devised by men. Centuries before there were any JW's the truth was known, our Lord himself stated: "Hear, O Israel, the Lord thy God is One God: and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and soul and mind and with all thy strength."

Not three individuals composing one God, nor three Gods composing one person.

"My Father is greater than I"-greater than all. (John 14:28) Jesus declared that of Himself He could do nothing; that He was merely the Mouthpiece of God in His teachings, and the Finger of God in His working of miracles. He directed that His followers should worship the Father, and declared, when leaving, "I ascend to My Father and to your Father, to my God and to your God." John 20:17

The scriptures do not support this false doctrine at all, it is only through twisting and wrestling with the scriptures that its advocates make it so.

I will not here waste any more time arguing the point with you as it has been my experience that most Trinitarians have been completely given over to this false doctrine (in one way or another) and it is a waste of consecrated time to argue with them, besides the fact that this along with many other false doctrines commonly held by the professing church in no way affects their salvation.

 

[Soverign Grace]

Are You Saved Because You Believe OR Do You Believe Because You Are Saved?
This was a similar question to what Dave_L posted on his Profile page. This is posted with his permission.

Would any like to chime in?
Keep it umm, err, civil

I knew no other Christians and was raised Catholic so did not have any guidance on spiritual rebirth. I had sought God: "Ye shall seek me and find me when ye search for me with all your heart." I didn't know what happened to me, but I began being able to understand the bible, when before it made no sense. I also experienced a time of the veil being removed and I could see that I was a sinner - not this good person I thought I was. Then I was out at a store and someone had left the booklet "Steps to Christ" there and I took it home. It explained spiritual rebirth; God used it to show me that's what I underwent.

So to answer your question, I guess I believe because God saved me. Scripture says that no man can come to the Father unless He draws them.

 

[Ezra]

Not three individuals composing one God, nor three Gods composing one person.

ok so your apostolic Pentecostal aka oneness .. what do you call the father the son the holy ghost recall at jesus baptism God spoke this is my beloved son hear ye HIM john 3:16 for God so loved the world HE gave his only SON these 2 scriptures shows 2 separate persons.. then Jesus said when he left he would send the comforter /Holy-ghost / spirit of Truth . when i do the math this shows me 3 persons 3 separate jobs / ministries together the form the Trinity

 

[Marymog]

Not True.

Taken

Hi Taken,

I should have been more clear: Small children, persons with mental disabilities and persons who were never given the opportunity to believe (ex. lost tribes of the Amazon) will be saved hence my statement belief is not necessary for salvation.

Hope that helps clear up any confusion.

Mary

 

[Waiting on him]

Are You Saved Because You Believe OR Do You Believe Because You Are Saved?
This was a similar question to what Dave_L posted on his Profile page. This is posted with his permission.

Would any like to chime in?
Keep it umm, err, civil

John 6:29 KJV
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Tecarta Bible

 

[CoreIssue]

My point was God does not have to give you faith in him. Everyone has a natural ability have some degree of faith.

But to some he gives even greater faith once they believe.

 

[Dave L]

My point was God does not have to give you faith in him. Everyone has a natural ability have some degree of faith.

But to some he gives even greater faith once they believe.

Human faith will not save. It can only believe in the power of the flesh. It cannot discern spiritual truth. So it always finds the true Christ obnoxious and any false Christs delightful.

 

[CoreIssue]

ok so your apostolic Pentecostal aka oneness .. what do you call the father the son the holy ghost recall at jesus baptism God spoke this is my beloved son hear ye HIM john 3:16 for God so loved the world HE gave his only SON these 2 scriptures shows 2 separate persons.. then Jesus said when he left he would send the comforter /Holy-ghost / spirit of Truth . when i do the math this shows me 3 persons 3 separate jobs / ministries together the form the Trinity

He is a Bible Student, a very very close variant of Jehovah witness.

Both are adherents to Russell's teachings. Like SDA our adherence to Ellen G White.

 

[CoreIssue]

Hi Taken,

I should have been more clear: Small children, persons with mental disabilities and persons who were never given the opportunity to believe (ex. lost tribes of the Amazon) will be saved hence my statement belief is not necessary for salvation.

Hope that helps clear up any confusion.

Mary

That is incorrect.

Small children and persons with mental disabilities are
Not saved. They were never held accountable for sin.

The others you mentioned are covered in the Bible, specifically Romans. They were judged by the law of conscience.

 

[CoreIssue]

Human faith will not save. It can only believe in the power of the flesh. It cannot discern spiritual truth. So it always finds the true Christ obnoxious and any false Christs delightful.

Not what my Bible says. But then again, you do not believe in the literal Bible jump around between archaic words in archaic Bibles to find words you think you can spin and redefine your meanings.

Put another way, the Calvinism you believe in is a lie.

So is your amillennialism.

 

[Dave L]

Not what my Bible says. But then again, you do not believe in the literal Bible jump around between archaic words in archaic Bibles to find words you think you can spin and redefine your meanings.

Put another way, the Calvinism you believe in is a lie.

So is your amillennialism.

Here's a description from the bible on the natural state of man. Challenge; find any passage that supports your views about faith and free will.

“But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:18–21)

Here's a description from the bible on the state of man after the new birth. Challenge; find any passage that supports your views about faith and free will. Hint; faith and free will exist only after being born again.

 

[Marymog]

That is incorrect.

Small children and persons with mental disabilities are
Not saved. They were never held accountable for sin.

The others you mentioned are covered in the Bible, specifically Romans. They were judged by the law of conscience.

Ummmm.....what do you mean they are not saved? They didn't go to heaven?

Mary

 

[Taken]

Hi Taken,

I should have been more clear: Small children, persons with mental disabilities and persons who were never given the opportunity to believe (ex. lost tribes of the Amazon) will be saved hence my statement belief is not necessary for salvation.

Hope that helps clear up any confusion.

Mary

I would say, belief is required, but ability to reason is not required.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[CoreIssue]

Here's a description from the bible on the natural state of man. Challenge; find any passage that supports your views about faith and free will.

“But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:18–21)

Here's a description from the bible on the state of man after the new birth. Challenge; find any passage that supports your views about faith and free will. Hint; faith and free will exist only after being born again.

What does that prove?

 

[CoreIssue]

Ummmm.....what do you mean they are not saved? They didn't go to heaven?

Mary

Salvation is forgiveness of sin.

An innocent is not accountable for person, so there's nothing to forgive.

 

[Taken]

My point was God does not have to give you faith in him.

Disagree. Faith IN God is spiritual, and is gifted to men Viaa thee Lord God who IS Spirit.

Everyone has a natural ability have some degree of faith.

Natural "faith", is not "spiritual faith". I would say that hinges more on secular "Confidence" rather than "spiritual Faith".

But to some he gives even greater faith once they believe.

ANY man "HEARING" the Word of God is being Enlightened to the Truth.
Every man who is BELIEVING what he Hears, is being given FAITH from God, IN MEASURES.

A man who continues HEARING and BELIEVING, continues receiving the Gift of Measures Faith from God.

Thus IF the man Continues to INCREASE in Belief, so also is the man INCREASED in Faith.

It is when a man Begins to BE AFFECTED by his INCREASE in FAITH, the man is becoming PREPARED to CONFESS his Belief and Give His Life to the Lord God.

Once that Occurs..^^...the man becomes IN FAITH-FULLNESS unto Thee Lord God Almighty. And the man Remains so, forever, By the Power of God.

(Should the man NEVER make than Confession, AT ANY time he can stop believing, stop receiving measures of faith and be called having fallen from faith.)

Glory to God,
Taken