Are you sending your neighbors to Hell?
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I didn’t twist your words and intentionally twisting the words of others benefits no one.
If I were you, I would direct interested readers to your many posts and threads on the subject of doctrine. Perhaps you will provide the thread titles and forum locations for their convenience.
You also have the opportunity now to restate your position on doctrine here, if you feel it necessary and desire to do so.
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“To rise from error to truth is rare and beautiful.” - Victor Hugo
Honour Edward William Fudge - Afterlife | Conditional Immortality
It is with a deep sense of gratitude that we Honour Edward William Fudge, who passed away on November 26. What an outstanding contribution he has made.
Being Baptist (if I remember correctly), I thought you might appreciate this piece (“In Honour of Edward William Fudge”) written by Baptist Pastor Warren Prestidge.
Pastor Prestidge also wrote a book on the subject of conditional immortality titled Life, Death & Destiny. If you haven’t read, I would recommend it to you.
He also runs a website in New Zealand which contains many articles on the subject. Here is a link to the site, for you and / or others who may be interested.
Home - Afterlife | Conditional Immortality
Exploring Conditional Immortality Articles exploring issues of the afterlife from a Christian Evangelical Perspective including human nature, the soul, life after death, final punishment, the resurrection and eternity Latest from the blog Key Articles Conditional Immortality Start here: What is...
RLT63
Well-Known Member
Thank you“To rise from error to truth is rare and beautiful.” - Victor Hugo
Honour Edward William Fudge - Afterlife | Conditional Immortality
It is with a deep sense of gratitude that we Honour Edward William Fudge, who passed away on November 26. What an outstanding contribution he has made.www.afterlife.co.nz
Being Baptist (if I remember correctly), I thought you might appreciate this piece (“In Honour of Edward William Fudge”) written by Baptist Pastor Warren Prestidge.
Pastor Prestidge also wrote a book on the subject of conditional immortality titled Life, Death & Destiny. If you haven’t read, I would recommend it to you.
He also runs a website in New Zealand which contains many articles on the subject. Here is a link to the site, for you and / or others who may be interested.
Home - Afterlife | Conditional Immortality
Exploring Conditional Immortality Articles exploring issues of the afterlife from a Christian Evangelical Perspective including human nature, the soul, life after death, final punishment, the resurrection and eternity Latest from the blog Key Articles Conditional Immortality Start here: What is...
“Unquenchable courage”
I’m close to finishing reading The Little Shepherd of Kingdom Come; a novel about the Civil War in Kentucky. The author uses the phrase “unquenchable courage” (p. 270) to describe a Union soldier’s admiration of the Confederate soldiers he is fighting against. There was nothing a Union soldier could do, implies the author, that would extinguish the courage of the South’s fighting men. The Confederates - outnumbered and ill supplied - just kept coming. Their unquenchable courage ceased, quenched, on the battlefield only when death rendered them no longer able to act [courageously or otherwise].
I’m close to finishing reading The Little Shepherd of Kingdom Come; a novel about the Civil War in Kentucky. The author uses the phrase “unquenchable courage” (p. 270) to describe a Union soldier’s admiration of the Confederate soldiers he is fighting against. There was nothing a Union soldier could do, implies the author, that would extinguish the courage of the South’s fighting men. The Confederates - outnumbered and ill supplied - just kept coming. Their unquenchable courage ceased, quenched, on the battlefield only when death rendered them no longer able to act [courageously or otherwise].
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
To state with confidence that "no Christian" is going to pay attention to X or Y, you would need to have a comprehensive and intimal knowledge of the minds and lives of around 2400 million Christians. Alternatively, you would have to be appointed by those Christians as their representative or spokesperson.
Humbleness starts with recognizing our own position.
I do not speak in the name of God, or in the name of my religious community. My opinions are as fallible as those of anyone else. I am fully responsible for the opinions I post.
I don't come here to "instruct", but to share and, if possible, to help building bridges between believers.
May God continue to bless your life and that of your family and beloved ones, Dan.
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
Notice how the words "FILLED" and "FOREVER" are capitalized in the post that I'm quoting.
Some people seem emotionally attached to a doctrine in which millions of his fellowmen suffer unbelievable pain forever. A hell in which people like @Matthias and me get from God indestructible physical bodies that withstand third-grade burns and Sulphur gas intoxication for the sole purpose of feeling pain day and night. A torture that, because of our beliefs, we deserve.
However, maybe this emotional attachment to hell is mere appearance.
Perhaps what these people are emotionally attached to is not hell as such, but the Bible as a text to be interpreted as literally as possible.
Perhaps the doctrinal tower they have has built, where their self-esteem and religious identity seek refuge, has as cornerstone the text, rather than the Christ which the text was meant to reveal.
Challenge that foundation, and the tower collapses.
The fear of collapsing is so big, that these brothers and sisters are willing to sacrifice rationality, prudence, kindness, love, mental health, everything. How to deal with this situation? Not sure, but I imagine we should stick to the love of Christ.
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Agree.
From the OP (opening post #1)
Christian Universalism has an answer.
- Does Christian Universalism sidestep the justice of God?
- Does Christian Universalism deny the justice of God?
- Where did Christian Universalism come from? - New or old?
Apokatastasis in the early church
When many hear about Apokatastasis (the restoration of all things), Universalism, Christian Universalism, Universal Restoration, Universal Reconciliation, Ultimate Redemption, Ultimate Reconciliation, UR... There is an assumption that this is a new idea. Something modern liberal theologians...
www.christianityboard.com
'
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
I did not… but it would be better to evade Scripture, than to quote Scripture while evading reason.
Sounds like JW confusion!
Matthew 5:22
22 Whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
I’m not calling you fool, @Jack. I believe you are a noble, intelligent being. You and me are like waves of the same sea.
We all evade reason when we feel afraid or confused… we evade reason when we feel that our personal attachments are being threatened.
Quoting Scripture while avoiding reason results from making the text the foundation of our life.
God existed before the first page of the Bible was written.
Our notions of good and evil existed before we read the first page of the Bible. Those notions were nurtured by our mothers at home.
Among those notions is the certainty that defending people of all religions from being hurted is good.
We all evade reason when we feel afraid or confused… we evade reason when we feel that our personal attachments are being threatened.
Quoting Scripture while avoiding reason results from making the text the foundation of our life.
God existed before the first page of the Bible was written.
Our notions of good and evil existed before we read the first page of the Bible. Those notions were nurtured by our mothers at home.
Among those notions is the certainty that defending people of all religions from being hurted is good.
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My BRP for today -> Matthew 3 - 4.
“Every tree which does not produce good fruit will be hacked down and thrown into the fire.”
(Matthew 3:10)
What will happen to the tree that is chopped down and thrown into the fire?
It will be turned into a tree that produces good fruit? I don’t think so.
It will continue to burn forever, never being reduced to smoke and ashes? I don’t think so.
It will be consumed by the flames? Every tree which I’ve ever seen chopped down and thrown into the fire has ended this way.
If the analogy holds, the unfruitful tree / person will be consumed by the flames in the place of destruction.
“Every tree which does not produce good fruit will be hacked down and thrown into the fire.”
(Matthew 3:10)
What will happen to the tree that is chopped down and thrown into the fire?
It will be turned into a tree that produces good fruit? I don’t think so.
It will continue to burn forever, never being reduced to smoke and ashes? I don’t think so.
It will be consumed by the flames? Every tree which I’ve ever seen chopped down and thrown into the fire has ended this way.
If the analogy holds, the unfruitful tree / person will be consumed by the flames in the place of destruction.
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
Undoubtedly the analogy is powerful and could be interpreted as you do.
People who believe in the eternal torture, also rely on eloquent verses that could be interpreted as they do.
You believe that references to an eternal torment should be interpreted differently.
Well, I believe that references to a total destruction should be interpreted differently.
By the time Jesus was on earth, fire was a symbol not just of destruction, but of test and purification as well. This symbol had been introduced by Zoroaster and had influenced Jewish imagery.
Fire changes forever the nature of the thing that is being burnt.
Talking about Jesus, John he Baptist said: "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."
Have you wonder why the action of the Holy Spirit is represented as "fire"? Does the Holy Spirit destroy the person... or does the Holy Spirit test and transform the person?
Paul uses the symbol of fire for the Day of Judgement, for both testing and for purification. Please notice that although the test may destroy what is wrong about a person, the person herself can be saved through that process.
For no one can lay another foundation than that which was laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or stubble, each one’s work will be revealed. For the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. If anyone’s work which he has built on the foundation endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss. But he himself will be saved, still going through the fire. (1 Cor 3:11-15)
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Excerpt from the OP.
Perhaps the best evidence that no one really believes in a forever-burning Hell.
Or that no one really loves their neighbors. Take your pick.
If you really loved your neighbors, and believed in a forever-burning Hell, you wouldn't send them there.
I can hear the reply coming now. "I didn't send them to Hell, they sent themselves there."
Did you do anything to stop them? Did you convince them otherwise?
Did you live a life that made Christ attractive? I see...
[
Perhaps the best evidence that no one really believes in a forever-burning Hell.
Or that no one really loves their neighbors. Take your pick.
If you really loved your neighbors, and believed in a forever-burning Hell, you wouldn't send them there.
I can hear the reply coming now. "I didn't send them to Hell, they sent themselves there."
Did you do anything to stop them? Did you convince them otherwise?
Did you live a life that made Christ attractive? I see...
[
We differ with our beliefs, concerning universalism.
I don’t believe everyone dies and just goes straight into the heavenly gates, that would be unfair judgment, and make God not good… today is the day we choose…
Faith in “faithlessness” or faith in “Yahavah” only one brings newness of life, and is benefiting in the next life to come. However those who don’t want nothing to do with God, God allows them to go their own way, that is our difference…
I don’t believe the life is filled with attractiveness, when in Christ, it’s suffering in the sense of dying to self… and no one likes that… it’s part of it, just as much as Yahavah separated the light and the darkness in the beginning. It needed to be done…
That’s why hell today is over with according to the Bible, and there is an inside and outside of the heavenly kingdom.
Are you sure?
Neither do I.
Is the will of humans sovereign to the will of God?
An unfortunate view. Life is better when you see the beauty of it.
Where is that in the Bible?
[
Hello, Steven
You
Copilot
Can you share with me the details of the kingdom that are mentioned by John in Revelation 21, and 22.
Copilot
Explore
Certainly! Revelation 21 and 22 provide a vivid description of the new heaven, new earth, and the New Jerusalem. Here are some key details:
You
Sent by you:
Can you show me the bible verse that talks about hell being done away with by John in Revelation/Copilot
Sent by Copilot:
Certainly! The verse you’re referring to is likely Revelation 20:14. It states:This verse describes the final judgment where death and Hades (hell) are thrown into the lake of fire, symbolizing their ultimate end.
Can you share with me the details of the kingdom that are mentioned by John in Revelation 21, and 22.
Copilot
Sent by Copilot:
Explore
Certainly! Revelation 21 and 22 provide a vivid description of the new heaven, new earth, and the New Jerusalem. Here are some key details:
Revelation 21
- New Heaven and New Earth: John sees a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away (21:1).
- New Jerusalem: The holy city, New Jerusalem, comes down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband (21:2).
- God Dwelling with Humanity: God will dwell with His people, and they will be His people. He will wipe away every tear, and there will be no more death, mourning, crying, or pain (21:3-4).
- Description of the City: The city is described with brilliant imagery, including walls of jasper, streets of pure gold, and foundations adorned with precious stones (21:18-21).
- No Temple: There is no temple in the city because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple (21:22).
- Eternal Light: The city does not need the sun or moon, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp (21:23).
- Open Gates: The gates will never be shut, for there will be no night there (21:25).
Revelation 22
- River of Life: A river of the water of life, clear as crystal, flows from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city (22:1-2).
- Tree of Life: On each side of the river stands the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations (22:2).
- No More Curse: There will be no more curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and His servants will serve Him (22:3).
- Seeing God’s Face: They will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads (22:4).
- Eternal Reign: There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign forever and ever (22:5).
Not what I said. Not what you said.
What you actually wrote and what I actually wrote.
I know that death and hell will be thrown in the Lake of Fire, but that hasn't happened yet.
If it has, you should believe in Christian Universalism. (Ultimate Redemption, Universal Reconciliation - UR)
[
Hello, Steven
You
Sent by you:
Can you show me the bible verse that talks about hell being done away with by John in Revelation/
Copilot
Sent by Copilot:
Certainly! The verse you’re referring to is likely Revelation 20:14. It states:
This verse describes the final judgment where death and Hades (hell) are thrown into the lake of fire, symbolizing their ultimate end.
Can you share with me the details of the kingdom that are mentioned by John in Revelation 21, and 22.
Copilot
Sent by Copilot:
Explore
Certainly! Revelation 21 and 22 provide a vivid description of the new heaven, new earth, and the New Jerusalem. Here are some key details:
Revelation 21
- New Heaven and New Earth: John sees a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away (21:1).
- New Jerusalem: The holy city, New Jerusalem, comes down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband (21:2).
- God Dwelling with Humanity: God will dwell with His people, and they will be His people. He will wipe away every tear, and there will be no more death, mourning, crying, or pain (21:3-4).
- Description of the City: The city is described with brilliant imagery, including walls of jasper, streets of pure gold, and foundations adorned with precious stones (21:18-21).
- No Temple: There is no temple in the city because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple (21:22).
- Eternal Light: The city does not need the sun or moon, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp (21:23).
- Open Gates: The gates will never be shut, for there will be no night there (21:25).
Revelation 22
These chapters paint a beautiful and hopeful picture of the eternal state and the ultimate fulfillment of God’s promises123.
- River of Life: A river of the water of life, clear as crystal, flows from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city (22:1-2).
- Tree of Life: On each side of the river stands the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations (22:2).
- No More Curse: There will be no more curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and His servants will serve Him (22:3).
- Seeing God’s Face: They will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads (22:4).
- Eternal Reign: There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign forever and ever (22:5).
That’s where you’re confused. I don’t believe in “universalism,” period. That just says all people go straight into heaven when they die… the salvation for all being had I do believe in, but not everyone going straight into the Kingdom in the afterlife…
Universalism is a dangerous doctrine
Link Directive - All considerable information for the benefit of skeptics, believers, or unbelievers. Keep growing and maturing, look at the scriptures and seek truth, and may the spirit guide. #2 The End of Material Religion # 14 For your consideration. -> A FEW QUICK COMMENTS ON FULFILLMENT...
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They do end up in heavenly realm but not everyone ends ups immediately with staying with Yahavah after judgement, in the Kingdom.
I was just sharing to your question.
“Where does it say hell ends in the Bible.”
“What does the Kingdom look like.”
You should never assume anything and just hear me out. I’m glad to air out my differences cause you’re confuse(d) if you assume I accept “universalism” as something I accept… cause I do not. There is separation founded…. Just like,
Yahava separates the light from the dark.
“And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness.”
Genesis 1:4 ESV
There seems to be two parties that leave this life.
People who were faithful in faithlessness.
People who were faithful to Yahavah, and continued to do his will, by the Holy Spirit given to them.
Not everyone is gonna want to live with Yahavah, even angels left their domains.
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