@Aunty Jane - A thread to discuss, with you specifically, a few things, if you will indulge a little time with me. Thank you.

[Adventageous]

Since no one went to heaven before Jesus opened the way for his elect to follow

Was what Peter, James and John saw on the Mount of Transfiguration was just a “vision”?

'Vision'? "οραμα" Simply means that which is seen, which can be by the eyes or with the mind/heart, and thus with the eye of the mind. For instance:

Act 7:31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,​

Did Moses actually see with his own eyes the burning bush, or did he only imagine it in the mind? Same word, "οραμα".

Notice the words and he brackets koine Greek, and verse connections:

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see ["ιδωσιν" [G1492], idosin, from eido, meaning to look upon] the Son of man coming [see 2 Peter 1:16] in his kingdom.​

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,​

Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.​

Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared ["ωφθησαν" [G3700], ophthesan, from optanomai, means to see with the eyes] unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.​

Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.​

Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.​

Mat 17:6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.​

Mat 17:7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.​

Mat 17:8 And when they had lifted up their eyes ['επαραντες δε τους οφθαλμους αυτων", again the word "ophthalmous" is used, meaning eyes], they saw ["ειδον" [G1492], eidon, from eido, meaning to look upon] no man, save Jesus only.​

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision ["οραμα" [G3705], [h]orama, meaning to see] to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.​

Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?​

Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.​

Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.​

Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.​

Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen ["ιδωσιν" [G1492], idosin, from eido, meaning to look upon] the kingdom of God come with power [see 2 Peter 1:16].​

Mar 9:2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.​

Mar 9:3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.​

Mar 9:4 And there appeared ["ωφθη" [G3700], ophthe, from optanomai, means to see with the eyes] unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.​

Mar 9:5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.​

Mar 9:6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.​

Mar 9:7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.​

Mar 9:8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about ["περιβλεψαμενοι" [G4017], periblepsamenoi from periblepo, meaning to look all around], they saw ["ειδον" [G1492], eidon, from eido, meaning to look upon] no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.​

Mar 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen ["ειδον" [G1492], eidon, from eido, meaning to look upon], till the Son of man were risen from the dead.​

Mar 9:10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.​

Mar 9:11 And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?​

Mar 9:12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.​

Mar 9:13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.​

Luk 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see ["ιδωσιν" [G1492], idosin, from eido, meaning to look upon] the kingdom of God.​

Luk 9:28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.​

Luk 9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.​

Luk 9:30 And, behold ["ιδου" [G2400, idou, to behold with the eyes, to see, to look upon], there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:​

Luk 9:31 Who appeared ["οφθεντες" [G3700], ophthentes, from optanomai, means to see with the eyes]] in glory [see 2 Peter 1:17], and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.​

Luk 9:32 But Peter and they that were [past tense] with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake ["διαγρηγορησαντες" [G12356], diagregoresantes, from diagregoreo, meaing to be fully awake], they saw ["ειδον" [G1492], eidon, from eido, meaning to look upon] his glory [see 2 Peter 1:17], and the two men that stood with him.​

Luk 9:33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.​

Luk 9:34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.​

Luk 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.​

Luk 9:36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen ["εωρακασιν" [G3708], [h]eorakasin, from horao, meaning to stare at, see, look upon, witness, experience (with eyesight, mind, body, etc)].​

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2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses ["εποπται", [G2030], epoptai from epoptes, meaning one who looks upon] of his majesty.​

2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.​

2Pe 1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.​

2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:​

It was on the 7th day (after 6 days and before "about an" 8) that the Mount of Transfiguration took place.

Peter, in 2 Peter is contrasting his own eyewitness testimony at the mount of Transfiguration, his own eyesight there, to that of prophecy of the scripture, which is more sure than his own eyesight, since the eyes of a man might be deceived or be led astray, but God's prophetic word is always true and can never lie or deceive (Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18, etc). They saw with their eyes and heard with their ears. In scripture, this is known as being an awake 'vision' or 'sight' to behold, rather than a dream while asleep, but this is that which something is seen and heard while fully awake. (Luke 9:32). Several examples in scripture can be given in addition to this.

So, consider all of the words, in their context as used, and they being fully awake (and several translations into English translate it that way), and then seeing Moses and Elijah in "glory", which means resurrected and glorified immortal bodies (see Romans 5:14; Jude 1:9 for Moses, and see 2 Kings 2 for Elijah) of flesh and bones. They were no whispy aether, but flesh and bone glorified Moses and Elijah standing on the Mount of Transfiguration next to Jesus, which is why Peter wanted to build three Tabernacles on the spot. Even the voice of the Father with the clouds of Heaven were present there. They were not asleep, nor imagining it. They actually saw it with their own eyes and heard with the own ears.

 

[Adventageous]

Since no one went to heaven before Jesus opened the way for his elect to follow

Wait what about ,"Firstborn from the dead” (Colossians 1:18)

Read the context. "Firstborn from the dead" (πρωτοτοκος εκ των νεκρων) deals with "preeminence" (πρωτευων ), not in time or space, as the text does not say "first to be resurrected from the dead". I can show examples of firstborn having nothing to do with being the first (in time or place) to be born. Need examples?

“Firstborn” can literally mean the one 'who was first to be born', as in Genesis 10:15, 19:31,33,34,37, 22:21, 25:13, 27:19,32, 29:26, 35:23, 36:15, 38:6,7, 41:51, 43:33, 46:8, 48:14,18, 49:3; Exodus 4:23, 6:14, 11:5, 12:12,29, 13:2,13,15, 22:29, 34:20; Numbers 3:2,12,13,40,41,42,43,45,46,50, 8:16,17, 18:15, 33:4; Deuteronomy 21:15,16,17, 25:6; Joshua 6:26, 17:1; Judges 8:20; 1 Samuel 8:2, 14:49, 17:13; 2 Samuel 3:2; 1 Kings 16:34; 1 Chronicles 1:13,29, 2:3,13,25,27,42,50, 3:1,15, 4:4, 5:1,3, 6:28, 8:1,30,39, 9:5,31,36, 26:22,4; 2 Chronicles 21:3; Nehemiah 10:36; Psalms 78:51, 105:36, 135:8, 136:10; Micah 6:7; Matthew 1:25; Luke 2:7; Hebrews 11:28 KJB.

However, “first born” also carries another definition, in that it also means “the chief”, “set before” [placed ahead of, or instead of], “might”, and “beginning of strength”, “excellency of dignity”, “excellency of power”, “be greater”, “higher than the kings of the earth”, “the preeminence”:

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Genesis 48:16-20​

Manasseh was literally the “firstborn”, the preeminence went unto the younger, Ephraim, and so he was “set … before ...” Manasseh, and Ephraim would be the “greater”.

Genesis 49:3; 1 Chronicles 5:1​

Reuben was literally the first to be born of Jacob/Israel, we see the words connected with “firstborn” in these texts is more than simply being first to be born, for though Reuben was this, he was still “Unstable as water ...” and would “... not excel” because of what he had done, and therefore that which would have been his by birthright, was “given unto” another, and was no longer “to be reckoned after the birthright”. Therefore the word “firstborn” was to mean more than simply first to be born, but was to carry with it all these, “... might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power” and Reuben failed at this because of his actions.

Exodus 4:22 KJB - And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:​

Israel is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that Esau, and not Jacob [Israel], was the literal firstborn [Genesis 25:25-26 KJB], but in this instance we are dealing with the spiritual matter, since Jacob was the one that overcame with God, and prevailed, and so given a new name. We can also know by scripture that Jesus is the True Israel (Matthew 2:13-15,19-21; Hosea 11:1; his children are his disciples; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33), the true "overcomer" (John 16:33; Revelation 3:21), the real "Prince" with God (Isaiah 9:6; Daniel 8:11,25, 9:25, 10:13,21, 11:22, 12:1; Acts 3:15, 5:31; Revelation 1:5), being Lord over His own house, whose house are we (Psalms 98:3; Hebrews 3:6; Jeremiah 31:33), who himself is the "elect" (Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:6) of the Father, in whom all the promises of God find their realization (2 Corinthians 1:20). The promises made by God were all based upon condition (Exodus 19). 'Israel' after the flesh, as a 'nation', is left desolate (Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35), to bear no more fruit ever again (Matthew 21:19), cursed, withered away (Mark 11:21), dried up from the roots (Mark 11:20), "twice dead" (Jude 1:12), and the axe already laid at their root (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), cut down and to be thrown into the fire.

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Numbers 3:41-45, 8:14-18​

The children of Israel rebelled, they forfeited their right as the 'firstborn', and so God took [“taken ... for”] the Levites “instead of” them.

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Psalms 89:27 KJB - Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.​

David [Psalms 89:20 KJB] is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that David is actually the youngest son of Jesse [1 Samuel 16:10-11 KJB]. We can also see by the use in Psalms 89:27 KJB that “firstborn” is related to pre-eminence, in other words: “higher than the kings of the earth”. David was a type pointing to Christ [Luke 24:27; John 5:39 KJB]. The term “firstborn” in this instance does not actually mean first to be born, but rather “pre-eminent, first over all, special, chosen, headship, of blessing, chief” and it was God which would “make” it this way.

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Jeremiah 31:9 KJB - They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.​

Ephraim is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that Manasseh was the literal “firstborn” of Joseph [Genesis 41:50-52 KJB], and yet God also called Israel his “firstborn”:

Exodus 4:22 KJB - And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:​

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Hosea 11:1 KJB - When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.​

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Matthew 2:15 KJB - And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.​

The reference to “Israel”, being the “firstborn”, in Hosea and Matthew 2:15 KJB is actually a reference to Jesus Christ.

1 Chronicles 26:10 KJB - Also Hosah, of the children of Merari, had sons; Simri the chief, (for though he was not the firstborn, yet his father made him the chief​

Persons can be “made” “firstborn”, in otherwords “the chief” [the pre-eminent], without actually being the literally “firstborn”.

Even in Job 18:12-13 [“firstborn of death”] and in Isaiah 14:30 [“firstborn of the poor”], the term “firstborn” in these instances is also being used in a figurative sense. Like “disease and decay” or “chiefest of the poor”, the most poorest of them.

So, in considering the word “Firstborn”, what does this mean when it refers to Jesus in Colossians 1:15? Context tells us.

The actual Greek word for “first created” is “protoktioti”, but Paul [a Jew, raised a Pharisee] chooses carefully instead, by aide of the Holy Spirit Himself [2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21 KJB], the Greek word for the “chosen” headship connotation: “prototokos” [“Firstborn”, see also Hebrews 1:6 KJB “first begotten into the world”; Revelation 1:5 “first begotten of the dead”]. For we are to inherit all things through Jesus Christ, for notice:

2 Corinthians 1:20 KJB - For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.​

So when we consider again the usage in Colossians 1:15 KJB, let us look at the immediate context to see if Paul meant “firstborn” in the sense of “headship and pre-eminence of promise” or “first created”.

We go to Colossians 1:18 KJB:

Colossians 1:18 KJB - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.​

Paul solves the issue for us, line upon line: “... head of the body … who is the beginning … have the preeminence.”

Now, consider the greater context of the whole of scripture, for Christ Jesus can be said to fulfill both meanings, in that not only is:

[1] Jesus is the “firstborn”, being the preeminent one:

Romans 9:5; Colossians 1:16,20; Ephesians 1:21-23, 3 :9, 4:15; Hebrews 7:26; John 1:3​

[2] Jesus is also the “firstborn” of the Woman/Church:

Isaiah 9:6; Luke 2:11; Hebrews 2:10; Revelation 12:1-5,13​

After this, how can any say that the Son [Jesus] is created or even first to be resurrected using that “firstborn” text?

 

[Adventageous]

because the verse is very obscure

What about the following texts is/are obscure?

Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.​

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;​

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,​

Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.​

Mat 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.​

Which part specifically is obscure?

What you have stated is your "opinion", but that is not what scripture clearly states.

Even sharing my own opinion, now, the passage is perfectly clear, and not obfuscated at all.

[50] Jesus cries out loud, breathes his last.​

[51] The Most Holy Place veil in the Temple in Jerusalem was torn from top to bottom​

[51] there was an earthquake​

[51] the very rocks around Jerusalem were split and moved​

[52] the graves around Jerusalem were opened due to the shaking of the quake​

[52] many persons who were dead and in their graves [vs 53] arose from death after Jesus arose three days later [vs 53]​

[53] the dead came out of their already opened graves (opened three days prior when Jesus died [vs 50] and the earthquake took place [vs 51])​

[53] these resurrected person went into the city Jerusalem, and appeared to people, even as Jesus himself did to those who knew him​

[54] the Roman centurion was witness to all these things, including the earthquake, and made a statement about Jesus.​

What is unclear, or obfuscated in any of that?

 

[Adventageous]

Those who are "resurrected first" were not to be raised to life until the time of Christ's "parousia"...his return.

You have a mistaken notion, just like Mary and Martha did, in Lazarus' death and resurrection.

There were/are resurrections before Jesus return (second advent), or even first advent.

There were persons taken to Heaven, before Jesus' returns in the second advent, and even before his first advent.

Cases of Translation (Taken alive without experiencing death) in Scripture to consider:

OT:

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[01.] Enoch - Genesis 5:24; Hebrews 11:5​

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[02.] Elijah - 2 Kings 2:1-12​

NT:

[03.] Final Harvest - 1 Thessalonians 4:15,17​

Cases of Resurrections in Scripture to consider:

OT:

[01.] Moses by The Son of God (aka Jesus/Michael, the eternal uncreated and Highest Angel (Messneger) of the LORD (Father) - Numbers 20:8-12, 27:13, 31:2; Deuteronomy 4:21-22, 31:2,14,16, 32:51-52, 34:1-8; 1 Samuel 2:6; Matthew 22:32; John 11:25-26; Matthew 17:1-12; Mark 9:1-13; Luke 9:27-36; 2 Peter 1:16; Romans 5:14; Jude 1:9​

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[02.] Widow of Zarephath's Son by Elijah - 1 Kings 17:17-24; Hebrews 11:35​

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[03.] Shunamite Woman's Son by Elijah - 2 Kings 4:18-37; Hebrews 11:35​

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[04.] A man touching Elisha's bones - 2 Kings 13:20-21​

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[05.] Valley of the Dry Bones (Raised Army) by Ezekiel (natural and spiritual applications; 1 Corinthians 15:46) - Ezekiel 37:1-14​

NT:

[06.] Widow of Nain's Son by Jesus - Luke 7:11-17; Hebrews 11:35​

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[07.] Jairus' Daughter by Jesus - Matthew 9:18,19,23-26; Mark 5:22-24,35-43; Luke 8:41-42,49-56; Hebrews 11:35​

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[08.] Lazarus by Jesus - John 11:1-47; Hebrews 11:35​

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[09.] Jesus by the Father in Heaven, Himself (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost/Spirit; (JEHOVAH Elohiym) Colossians 2:12; 1 Peter 1:21; 1 Corinthians 6:14; Acts 2:24, 3:15, 13:33; Hebrews 13:20; (JEHOVAH, the Ancient of Days (The Father)) Acts 4:10; Ephesians 1:20; Romans 6:4; Galatians 1:1; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; (Jesus JEHOVAH; The Son of the Father) John 2:19, 10:18; (The Holy Spirit/Ghost of JEHOVAH) Romans 8:11; 1 Peter 3:18; See also: Matthew 28:1-20; Mark 16:1-20; Luke 24:1-53; John 20:1-31; 1 Corinthians 15:20,23, &c; ​

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[10.] Firstfruits/Wavesheaf at the time of Jesus' Resurrection around Jerusalem by JEHOVAH Elohiym - Matthew 27:50-53, 28:1-4; Isaiah 26:19; (for Jesus, see also Psalms 40:6; Hebrews 10:5; Galatians 4:4); Psalms 68:8,17-21 (vs 21., see Genesis 3:15); compare Psalms 68:18 to Ephesians 4:8-10; Compare Leviticus 23:9-14; 15-22 (Firstfruits) to 1 Corinthians 15:21-23. See also Psalms 24:1-10 (Triumphal Entry with Victory Train into New Jerusalem above), with Psalms 98:1-3; Colossians 2:15. See also Acts 1.​

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[11.] Tabitha/Dorcas by Peter - Acts 9:36-42​

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[12.] Eutychus by Paul - Acts 20:9-12​

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[13.] Special Harvest - Daniel 12:2,12; Matthew 26:64; Mark 14:62; Revelation 1:7, 14:13, &c;​

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[14.] The Righteous (Resurrection unto Eternal Life at the start of the 1,000 Years of Revelation 20:1-7; Isaiah 24:22) - 1 Samuel 2:6; Job 14:12-14, 19:26; Hosea 13:14; Matthew 22:31; Mark 12:18,23,25; Luke 14:14, 20:35,36; John 5:29a, 6:25,28,29,39,40,44,54, 11:24,25; Acts 4:2, 17:31,32, 23:6, 24:15a,21; Romans 6:5,8, 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:12,13,16,20,21,23,29,32,35,42,43,52-55; Philippians 3:10,11; Colossians 3:3; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Timothy 2:18, 4:1; Hebrews 6:2, 11:35; Revelation 20:5b,6; -- All the Holy "Clouds" of Angels, the "reapers", with Him -- Psalms 68:17, 104:3; Isaiah 66:15; Matthew 13:39,49, 16:27, 24:30, 25:31,51, 26:64; Mark 8:38, 13:27; Luke 9:26, 21:27; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 3:13, 4:16-17; Hebrews 1:7; Revelation 1:7, 12:7​

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[15.] The Wicked (finally impenitent; Resurrection unto Damnation, 2nd Death at the close of the 1,000 Years of Revelation 20:1-7; Isaiah 24:22) - John 5:29b; Acts 17:31, 24:15b; Revelation 20:5a; (2nd Death; Genesis 2:17; Job 20:26,29, 31:2-3; Psalms 7:9, 9:17, 11:6, 21:9, 37:10, 37:20, 37:28,38, 68:2, 69:28, 75:8,10, 92:7,9, 104:35, 106:18, 112:10, 145:20; Proverbs 2:22, 10:25,28,30, 12:7, 13:9, 14:11, 24:20; Ezekiel 18:4, 18:20; Isaiah 13:9, 25:8, 66:17,24; Nahum 1:10; Obadiah 1:16; Zephaniah 1:2-3; Malachi 4:1; Matthew 10:28; John 3:16; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 6:8; James 1:15; 2 Peter 3:10; Jude 1:12; Revelation 2:1; 7:17, 20:6,9,14, 21:4,8)​

NT: (Special Cases for consideration)

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[16.] The "Two Witnesses" (not actually persons, they are symbols of the "Law" and the "Testimony" (word of God), see Acts 10:43; Romans 3:21; Deuteronomy 31:26; Matthew 24:14; tie to "Moses" - Exodus 4:9, 7:19,21, 9:14; Deuteronomy 11:17, tie to "Elijah" - 1 Kings 8:35; 2 Chronicles 6:26, 7:13 (see also 1 Kings 17:1,14-15, 8:1,41,44-45), see also Luke 4:25; James 5:17; tie to "truth fallen in the street" - Isaiah 59:14 (see also, for "street", Nehemiah 8:1,3; Job 29:7; Daniel 9:25; see also for "truth", Psalms 119:142,151; John 14:6, 15:26, 16:13; 1 John 5:6; Deuteronomy 32:4; Psalms 25:10); tie to "light", "candlestick" - Psalms 119:105; Isaiah 8:20; 2 Peter 1:19; tie to "the word of the LORD", "my spirit" - Zechariah 4:6; see also Revelation 1:2,9, 6:9, 12;17, 20:4; Deuteronomy 4:2, Revelation 14:7,12; Exodus 20:11; Isaiah 1:10; 2 Kings 17:13; Psalms 19:7, 78:5; Proverbs 29:18; Isaiah 8:16,20; Lamentations 2:9; Ezekiel 7:26; Matthew 22:40; Romans 3:21; Revelation 1:10, &c.) - Revelation 11:3-12​

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[17.] Paul (not actually resurrected, merely injured and helped up) - Acts 14:19-20; 2 Corinthians 11:25, 12:1-7​

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[18.] Anti Christos (koine Greek) (Vicarivs Christi (Latin); Beast of the Sea; Son of Perdition; Man of Sin; receives a 'deadly wound' (Government/State Authority with execution powers is stripped from it), and later is healed (Government/State Authority with execution powers are returned to it; it counterfeits Christ Jesus; this is not an individual person, but a system, a Church/State entity*) - Revelation 13:3,12; Daniel 11:40​

 

[Wrangler]

personal opinions count for nothing

Here is a contradiction that I have argued with people for years.

it should be what our own research has "shown" us is true

It is incorrect to say opinions count for nothing even though that is what we hear all the time. And the only kind of opinion is personal.

Therefore, what differentiates opinions is what they are based on, e.g., the set of facts and logical analysis.

 

[Adventageous]

The entire Bible was written by Jews, from a Jewish perspective

Moses was Hebrew (Exo. 2:11) & Israelite (of Levi; Exo. 2:1), not a Jew (from Judah, much later became a designation of remnant of Judah, included what was left of Benjamin, and some Levites in NT, as a whole in the southern tribes remnants). There is a difference between Hebrew (of Eber), Israelite (of Jacob) and Jew (of Judah, primarily, some exception by the time of the NT is written).

Joshua was Hebrew & Israelite (of Ephraim by Joseph; Num. 13:8), not a Jew (see previous notes).

Samuel was Hebrew & Israelite (of Ephraimite and Levite; 1 Chr. 6:33-38; 1 Sam. 1:1), not a Jew (see previous notes).

Ruth was of Moab (Ruth 1:4; and possibly written by Samuel (traditionally accepted by some)), not a Jew.

Nebuchadnezzar (Babylonian) wrote quite a bit of Daniel 4.

From what I understand of the internal evidence, Luke was a Gentile Physician (Col. 4:14, in conjunction with vs. 11; Philemon 1:24), who wrote both Luke and Acts, and never is the geneology of Luke given as being among the 12 tribes.

Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin (Rom. 11:1; not Judah), and states that he is an Hebrew of the Hebrews, and Israelite (Php. 3:5), however, by the time of the NT, the designation "Jew" included the entirety of the southern tribes (Judah (majority), Benjamin (very minority), and Levites (very minority)) and their remnants (Acts 21:39).

 

[Johann]

Moses was Hebrew (Exo. 2:11) & Israelite (of Levi; Exo. 2:1), not a Jew (from Judah, much later became a designation of remnant of Judah, included what was left of Benjamin, and some Levites in NT, as a whole in the southern tribes remnants). There is a difference between Hebrew (of Eber), Israelite (of Jacob) and Jew (of Judah, primarily, some exception by the time of the NT is written).

Joshua was Hebrew & Israelite (of Ephraim by Joseph; Num. 13:8), not a Jew (see previous notes).

Samuel was Hebrew & Israelite (of Ephraimite and Levite; 1 Chr. 6:33-38; 1 Sam. 1:1), not a Jew (see previous notes).

Ruth was of Moab (Ruth 1:4; and possibly written by Samuel (traditionally accepted by some)), not a Jew.

Nebuchadnezzar (Babylonian) wrote quite a bit of Daniel 4.

From what I understand of the internal evidence, Luke was a Gentile Physician (Col. 4:14, in conjunction with vs. 11; Philemon 1:24), who wrote both Luke and Acts, and never is the geneology of Luke given as being among the 12 tribes.

Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin (Rom. 11:1; not Judah), and states that he is an Hebrew of the Hebrews, and Israelite (Php. 3:5), however, by the time of the NT, the designation "Jew" included the entirety of the southern tribes (Judah (majority), Benjamin (very minority), and Levites (very minority)) and their remnants (Acts 21:39).

Correct...




It is common to confuse Jews with Israelites today as almost all Jews live in Israel. And although all Jews are Israelites, not all Israelites are Jews. To explain the reason for this, it is important to specify the difference between being a Jew and an Israelite. Although both sets of groups fall under the group of Hebrews, there are some significant differences between the two. Hebrews, Israelites and Jews all belong to the nation that was chosen by God in the Old Testament.

Legend has it that Jacob, who was the son of Isaac and was also the promised son of Abraham had his name changed to Israel when he wrestled with a Holy man (sent by God). In simple words, the nation that grew from the descendants of the followers of Abraham and Isaac (and then Jacob aka Israel) later got to be known as Israel, and its people Israelites. Later when the nation divided, the people of the northern part kept the name Israelites whereas their Southern counterparts now became known as Judahs.

To clarify the difference between the two, let’s first take a look at the history of the two groups. The group of people who migrated and settled in what is now known as Palestinian hinterland sometime around the fourteenth century are normally referred to as Hebrews. After the death of King Solomon, there was a division in the commonwealth of Israel. This gave rise to a Northern kingdom that was comprised of ten main tribes which became Israel. Shechem was its first capital which was later replaced by Samaria which became the new permanent capital. Then there was the Southern Kingdom which consisted of the Judah, Benjamin as well as some other tribes which became known as the nation of Judah. Its capital remained in Jerusalem. Judah however was later captured by Babylon.

Although there are many conflicts and confusions regarding the facts, what is most commonly considered is the legend that there were two Hebrew kingdoms to start with. One of them, Israel, was the larger and more prosperous one and was north relative to the other, Judah. Judah was the southern kingdom and although gained power in the future, was smaller and less wealthy than Israel. The people of Judah were known as Judahs and that of Israel, Israelites. In the bible, there is reference to a united monarchy comprised of two kingdoms, together known as Israel sometime around the tenth century BC.

During the Babylonian Exile, power remained with the Judah kings as well as the Judah religious leaders. Judahism began to expand in Judah in the 7th Century BC and during the Babylonian Exile, became the national religion of the citizens. After being exiled to Babylon, and when they returned, these people became known as Jews. It is their descendants who are the Jews living today. The Bible however, called all these people Israelites; the native Judahites as well as the refugees from the northern kingdom of Israel.

Differences between Jews and Israelites | Difference Between

Differences between Jews and Israelites It is common to confuse Jews with Israelites today as almost all Jews live in Israel. And although all Jews are Israelites, not all Israelites are Jews. To explain the reason for this, it is important to specify the difference between being a Jew and an...

www.differencebetween.net

You may disagree.

 

[RLT63]

It is what I "believe", based on what I have learned from the Bible. It is my biblical opinion.

Since you are asking me what only God knows, that is difficult to answer. There is only one truth and the "wheat" have it....so who are the "wheat"? We have to find them and allow ourselves to be taught by them. Jesus said he would appoint a "faithful slave" to feed his entire household "their food at the proper time". (Matt 24:45)

Looking back in history we see something obvious....personal opinions count for nothing....so when we accept a belief, it shouldn't be because someone told us something was true....it should be what our own research has "shown" us is true, by comparing scripture to scripture.

You will need to explain this as I have no idea as to what you are referring? What "special resurrection at the time of Jesus own resurrection"?
There was no special resurrection at the time of Jesus' resurrection that I am aware of.

Since no one went to heaven before Jesus opened the way for his elect to follow, Jesus could have raised John the Baptist like he did his friend Lazarus, but there is no mention of such a resurrection. The ones referred to in Matthew 27:53 were not resurrected IMV, because the verse is very obscure and only Matthew reported it....if it had been a "resurrection of the saints" at the time of Jesus death, then what became of them? Such a monumental event would have been mentioned in all the gospels.

Matt 27:51-53...at the moment of Jesus' death.....
"And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many."
First, whoever “the saints" or "holy ones” were, Matthew did not say they were resurrected. He said their bodies, or corpses, were raised. Second, he did not say that these bodies came to life. He said they were raised up, and the Greek verb e·geiʹro, meaning to “raise up,” does not always refer to a resurrection. It can, among other things, also mean to “lift out” from a pit or to “get up” from the ground. (Matt 12:11; 17:7; Luke 1:69)
There was a great earthquake and upheaval in the earth at the time of Jesus’ death, and tombs were opened, tossing lifeless bodies into the open. Such occurrences during earthquakes were reported in the second century C.E. by Greek writer Aelius Aristides and in 1962, in Colombia.
"They" (as in the ones who reported this event in the city) are not identified.

This view of the event harmonizes with Bible teachings. In 1 Corinthians 15, the apostle Paul gives convincing proof of the resurrection, but he completely ignores Matt 27:52-53. So do all other Bible writers. (Acts 2:32, 34) The corpses raised up at Jesus’ death could not have come to life in the way Epiphanius thought, because on the third day after his death, Jesus became “the firstborn from the dead.” (Col 1:18) That would mean that the saints were raised before him. So the scriptures conflict, but only if they are misinterpreted.
(See also 1 Thess 3:13; 4:14-17) Those who are "resurrected first" were not to be raised to life until the time of Christ's "parousia"...his return.


I like to allow the Bible to answer my questions.....and it can only do that if we have a complete understanding of the big picture.
The Bible does not contradict itself....it is men who contradict the Bible.

Yes, completely...it is what I did myself. There are Bible facts and there are Bible principles and statements that can be ambiguous.
The entire Bible was written by Jews, from a Jewish perspective....it helps to remember that when "the church" puts a pagan spin on Jewish scripture.

I will get to your other posts as I have time....

They went into the holy city and appeared to many. How does a corpse do that? As you frequently do you interpret the scripture to say what you want it to and ignore the obvious.

 

[Aunty Jane]

@Adventageous.....was it a discussion that you wanted, because this is hardly a discussion.
If you are an SDA, then you already know that we share certain beliefs, and disagree on others.

I am also in Australia in a different time zone.

You are not giving me time to respond before you flood the thread with more posts. I am a full time carer and I do not have the ability to respond to a thread like this because it would take my time and attention for far too long......it is apparent that you want to tell me about what you believe, but are not prepared to wait for any response from me before you move on to the next topic....so I will have to decline your request because it is clear that you just want to promote your own beliefs. That’s fine but please don’t use me to accomplish it.

If you want the truth, but you believe that you have found it already, why bother me?
At best this thread is merely designed to be a platform for proving JW’s are wrong......I could respond to all you have said, but I do not have the time or the inclination to devote that kind of time to someone who is not really interested in what I believe.....

I will respectfully leave you to it....

 

[Johann]

@Adventageous.....was it a discussion that you wanted, because this is hardly a discussion.
If you are an SDA, then you already know that we share certain beliefs, and disagree on others.

I am also in Australia in a different time zone.

You are not giving me time to respond before you flood the thread with more posts. I am a full time carer and I do not have the ability to respond to a thread like this because it would take my time and attention for far too long......it is apparent that you want to tell me about what you believe, but are not prepared to wait for any response from me before you move on to the next topic....so I will have to decline your request because it is clear that you just want to promote your own beliefs. That’s fine but please don’t use me to accomplish it.

If you want the truth, but you believe that you have found it already, why bother me?
At best this thread is merely designed to be a platform for proving JW’s are wrong......I could respond to all you have said, but I do not have the time or the inclination to devote that kind of time to someone who is not really interested in what I believe.....

I will respectfully leave you to it....

Well said
Could see you were bombed without waiting for a reply.
Keep strong
J.

 

[Johann]

They went into the holy city and appeared to many. How does a corpse do that? As you frequently do you interpret the scripture to say what you want it to and ignore the obvious.

Most of us are doing it, including you and me, without realizing it.
J.

 

[RLT63]

Most of us are doing it, including you and me, without realizing it.
J.

You’re probably right

 

[Adventageous]

They went into the holy city and appeared to many. How does a corpse do that? As you frequently do you interpret the scripture to say what you want it to and ignore the obvious.

The text does not say "corpse", as if walking 'zombies' flooded the city like a Hollywood nightmare (real 'zombies' are those 'living in the flesh', but dead in the spirit, not born again).

Here is what the text says:

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,​

Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.​

"many bodies of the saints which slept arose" - ie, resurrected, in fulfillment of Isaiah 26:19. Please notice, it does not say "all" the "saints" arose. It says "many", which means this is a special firstfruits resurrection, a trophy resurrection. Jesus took these back with him to Heaven, as firstfruits, as type in Leviticus 23 shows, of the great harvest (first great resurrection) to come (though there is one more special resurrection to come just before it).

Isa_26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.​

It states that "Thy (Jerusalem) dead men shall live", being "together with my (Messiah's) dead body shall they arise", and "the earth shall cast out the dead" (earthquake, just as Matthew 27 stated). They are not "corpses". They are living persons, with newly living bodies, immortalized.

As Jesus, arose from the grave, being bodily resurrected, and went into the city later, so too, did those whom were raised at that time. They all came with resurrected bodies, as Jesus' had.

Rom_6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:​

​

Luk_24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.​

​

Php_3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.​

 

[Adventageous]

Well said
Could see you were bombed without waiting for a reply.
Keep strong
J.

Mistaken. All those responses, are a single reply to Aunty Jane's reply. You see, error is often easy to say, but the truth takes time to unpack, and display. It is not my fault, that this forum has a severe limitation on replies. Evidence takes time and space to display. Each response was to a portion of Aunty Jane's "opinion". If you will please notice, I did wait for her responses to my response (broken into several replies) before continuing the discussion. You have misjudged me.

Secondarily, this thread was specifically for her, not for anyone else. If you are not amen-able to my method, you are free to vacate this area, though I do not necessarily deisre that. However, I will say, that my primary responses will be to her, and perhaps a few to others. Thank you.

 

[Adventageous]

Most of us are doing it, including you and me, without realizing it.
J.

Most indeed may be "doing it", but I have not. If you think so, feel free to point it out, and I will respond in kind, showing you it is not so by myself.

 

[RLT63]

The text does not say "corpse", as if walking 'zombies' flooded the city like a Hollywood nightmare (real 'zombies' are those 'living in the flesh', but dead in the spirit, not born again).

Here is what the text says:

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,​

Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.​

"many bodies of the saints which slept arose" - ie, resurrected, in fulfillment of Isaiah 26:19. Please notice, it does not say "all" the "saints" arose. It says "many", which means this is a special firstfruits resurrection, a trophy resurrection. Jesus took these back with him to Heaven, as firstfruits, as type in Leviticus 23 shows, of the great harvest (first great resurrection) to come (though there is one more special resurrection to come just before it).

Isa_26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.​

It states that "Thy (Jerusalem) dead men shall live", being "together with my (Messiah's) dead body shall they arise", and "the earth shall cast out the dead" (earthquake, just as Matthew 27 stated). They are not "corpses". They are living persons, with newly living bodies, immortalized.

As Jesus, arose from the grave, being bodily resurrected, and went into the city later, so too, did those whom were raised at that time. They all came with resurrected bodies, as Jesus' had.

Rom_6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:​

​

Luk_24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.​

​

Php_3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.​

Evidently you didn’t read Aunty Jane’s post. She said this verse means there was an earthquake and dead bodies were exposed, there was no resurrection. That’s why I was asking how a corpse could go in the holy city and appear to many. I believe something like you suggest in your post happened, some people were raised from the dead and they were seen by many

 

[Adventageous]

@Adventageous.....was it a discussion that you wanted, because this is hardly a discussion.

It is a discussion. I stated, with evidence, the point under present consideration.

You replied, with several fallacies.

I then responded to those fallacies in individual responses, as they could not be given in a single post, as the length, surpasses the limitation of this forum (the character limit is set entirely too low, especially when it includes in the BB (html) all the coding behind the scenes).

Therefore, please continue with your thoughts. Feel free to make them as detailed as you need, and I will read each one as I have, and respond to each point I think needs to be responded to in kind.

If you are an SDA, then you already know that we share certain beliefs, and disagree on others.

What I am is not relevant to the present discussion. I am asking you specific questions, based upon your own byline quotation, about "opinion" and "Bible discussion".

I have yet to have an answer from you about the latter, "Bible". When you say "Bible", what are you specifically referring to? Please address this question, and feel free to respond to the other material when you are able. I can wait.

I am also in Australia in a different time zone.

I am in American Samoa, so you are not that far distant from myself. As for the time zone, I am up rather late, which makes about a day and 4 hr difference from myself, if you are East Coast Australia. I speak with another 'sister' in Australia all of the time, and know the time zone difference. That 'sister' is approximately 20-21 hrs ahead of me. So while it may be Midnight my time, it is only about 8pm there.

You are not giving me time to respond before you flood the thread with more posts.

Not true. As I stated to another, my responses are a single response, broken up, into several posts due to the limitation of this forum, based upon your single response, which carried multiple fallacies in a single response. After I responded to those specific fallacies, I ended my response and wait, until now for your next replies.

You, as the other, are mistaken. I specifically waited for your further reply.

I am a full time carer and I do not have the ability to respond to a thread like this because it would take my time and attention for far too long......

Your response, assumes, my time is not just as valuable. I told you in advance, to take your time, and I could wait for you to properly reply.

it is apparent that you want to tell me about what you believe,

You are mistaken, again here. I responded with what the Bible (KJB) plainly states. Again, I shared with you truth, not my opinion in those latest responses. I do not believe in private interpretation. To say otherwise, is to put words into my mouth, and to have a strawman of a character that is not mine, before you. I specifically asked you questions, so that you could tell me what you believe. So far, you have not addressed the Bible question I asked. You were the one who went off on a tangent, in response to a minor section about the special resurrection, which was simply given in example as evidence about an opinion I had on John the Baptist. It was not the main thrust of my questions to you. It was simply a side note, that you attacked. I then responded in detail. You have yet to address any of it from your "bible" (which is what exactly? I told you where and what my Bible is).

but are not prepared to wait for any response from me before you move on to the next topic

Untrue, as can be seen from what I have stated now, in several places. My responses are a single response, broken up into several replies, based upon your multiple fallacies in your reply. I did not move onto any new topics. I have waited until now, for your response. You, as another, have grossly misjudged me, and my intent.

....so I will have to decline your request

Cowardice, from my perspective. You took an easy way out, because you are unable (I mean this) to address my reply in any meaningful way with evidence. In other words, you do not have an answer, and simply took this way out. All such as yourself that I have ever met - do this. They engage me in conversation, hoping to 'teach me' something about their 'opinions'. I then respond in detail. They flee the scene never to be heard from again even though they say that they will 'ask an elder', and yet never come back to provide the answer of that 'elder'.

Pro 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

Pro 18:17 He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him.

 

[Adventageous]

because it is clear that you just want to promote your own beliefs.

No, I asked you specific questions, for you to answer. You decided to run off on a tangent about a minor example I provided about my own personal opinion on John the Baptist. You still have not addressed the original question about the "Bible". I am here to question YOUR beliefs, opinions. If, by asking questions, of yourself, you must 'up and leave', because the questioning is too specific, I must judge your religion to be very fragile, and incapable of serious examination. In other words, not worth the time to even bother with.

However, upon my own part, in what I believe and practice, is most serious, even having eternal consequences. Thus, my own religion requires deep thought, prayerful study, and intense evidence and detail, lest a mistep lead me to a wrong eternal conclusion. My own belief and practice, is able to withstand any scrutiny, any question, any length of interrogation. I pity any religion (faith and practice) which has not the same substance of character, nor the same substance which affects my own character.

A religion that is as shallow, as yours, presently, seems to be, can only make a shallow alteration upon your character, which, as you have just demonstrated, is simply to vanish into wispy aether at the mere touch of investigation. I am sorry for you Aunty Jane. It is a pitiable existence from where I sit.

That’s fine but please don’t use me to accomplish it.

Use you? I gave you the full opportunity to openly, publically, and in any length you desired, to answer a few specific questions. You danced, you twirled, you gave an apparent show to impress, but unlike Herod, I am not impressed. I found it to be superficial, hollow, empty, and mechanical (simply repeated fallacy that you never questioned yourself in the first place).

If you want the truth, but you believe that you have found it already, why bother me?

If I "want the truth"? No, Aunty Jane, I have the truth. This was never about me finding the truth. That has already taken place, quite some time ago, and that same Truth, leads me into all Truth, so I do not need you, or anyone else for that. This was about questioning your statements about "opinion" and "bible", and any other subject you cannot wait to get to. I will discuss anything you like. I will question you, until you flee again. You seek to teach. I sought to question, so that you could teach. Yet, my questions will undermine all you teach, so that they will show you that what you teach cannot be sustained in inquiry. You would vacate upon each and every point, claiming some excuse or another, even as you just have.

At best this thread is merely designed to be a platform for proving JW’s are wrong.

I said nothing about JW's in my OP, nor to you before this point. I even specifically gave in reply to another, that it matters not what you originally claim to be with me. I am not interested in denominational name tags at this point. This thread was specifically about you, and questioning you, so that you could give what you (yourself) individually believed and practiced.

It seems you are the one attempting to defend the indefensible, of which I care not. I am for speaking with you. However, if you give WTS answers, they cannot be held publically without obvious ridicule from scripture. It was not I who mocked, but God Himself who laughed at the idiocy and lunacy that is the WTS monstrosity (now controlled by Jesuits, but never the less).

.....I could respond to all you have said,

I will wait, as I said I would from the beginning.

but I do not have the time

That is not true, and is a falsification. I have seen the length of your replies, and the amount of time you spend upon others in various places in the forums. You have not even given me, in respect, 1/10th of the time and effort you spend on promoting something which is not actually you, but a watch tower of Babel of another.

or the inclination to devote that kind of time to someone who is not really interested in what I believe.....

I am most interested in what "you" believe. The entire point of this was so you could answer questions, and you be able to explain what you believe. So far, you have not done that. You have avoided my question on the "Bible" several times now, and then gave forth the fallacy of the WTS, on a side issue. I have spoken that which is true in regards both our actions.

I will respectfully leave you to it....

I do not believe you for a second that you leave me "respectfully", for you have not in actual practice shown it.

You ran, and will always run, if you do not stay and face an actual honest (though intense) inquiry.

As an ex-Catholic, I had to face my own self when the inquiry came to me. I chose not to run, but to face each thing that came with honesty, integrity, patience, and endurance. Some answers I had to wait two years for. If only you could do the same. Why would I want anything from you that you believe to be true, if you cannot even stay long enough to examine what you believe to be true by simple questions.

I go back to my question again.

what do you mean by "Bible"?

If you change your mind, and do not desire to be seen as a coward, you may begin again, with that question which was from the beginning. Will you? I doubt it. The question itself already throws so much into your mind that you cannot accept that it alone causes you fear. Where is the "Bible"? What is the "Bible"? How do I know if what I have is the "Bible"? and so on it goes.

Now, was this a single response, in two parts, that I await your reply, or multiple responses that I didn't wait for you reply to?

 

[Adventageous]

Evidently you didn’t read Aunty Jane’s post. She said this verse means there was an earthquake and dead bodies were exposed, there was no resurrection. That’s why I was asking how a corpse could go in the holy city and appear to many. I believe something like you suggest in your post happened, some people were raised from the dead and they were seen by many

You are mistaken again. I provided, in several responses, to the fallacy you again present.

Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Mat 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Go to the text, again.

The bodies were indeed exposed for 3 days (vs 51-52a), but on the third day, when and after Jesus arose, they also "arose" (vs .52b) and then went into the city after being resurrected (vs 53).

 

[RLT63]

You are mistaken again. I provided, in several responses, to the fallacy you again present.

Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Mat 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Go to the text, again.

The bodies were indeed exposed for 3 days (vs 51-52a), but on the third day, when and after Jesus arose, they also "arose" (vs .52b) and then went into the city after being resurrected (vs 53).

Okay, you don’t seem to understand that I don’t disagree with you.