Balancing Justification and Eternal Life By Faith Alone vs By Works of Faith

[GracePeace]

How do you balance the Biblical doctrine of past-tense justification by faith without good works with the Biblical doctrine of future-tense justification by good works of faith?

It is true that Romans 4 speaks of justification by faith, apart from good works--and that it is of faith so that it may be a gift, and not of works, so that it is not a payment--but, from passages like Romans 2, it is also obvious that God is not finished judging, and that there is a judgment coming at which only the doers of the Law/doers of good will be justified and repaid eternal life.

Romans 2
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.
12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

 

[GracePeace]

In Hebrews, it speaks of resting from our own works...

Hebrews 4
10For whoever enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from His. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same pattern of disobedience.

...but, then, speaks of other works we are expected to do, which are done by faith, which are, apparently, in a different category...

Hebrews 11
17By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac on the altar. He who had received the promises was ready to offer his one and only son,c 18even though God had said to him, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.”d 19Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and in a sense, he did receive Isaac back from death.
20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning the future.
21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
22By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites and gave instructions about his bones.
23By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after his birth, because they saw that he was a beautiful child, and they were unafraid of the king’s edict.
24By faith Moses, when he was grown, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25He chose to suffer oppression with God’s people rather than to experience the fleeting enjoyment of sin. 26He valued disgrace for Christ above the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking ahead to his reward.
27By faith Moses left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw Him who is invisible. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch Israel’s own firstborn.
29By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to follow,e they were drowned.
30By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.
31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies in peace, did not perish with those who were disobedient.
32And what more shall I say? Time will not allow me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the raging fire, and escaped the edge of the sword; who gained strength from weakness, became mighty in battle, and put foreign armies to flight.
35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused their release, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36Still others endured mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment.
37They were stoned, they were sawed in two,f they were put to death by the sword. They went around in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, oppressed, and mistreated. 38The world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and hid in caves and holes in the ground.

Could it be that the works that do not justify us are our own works--"good works" produced by the flesh (Ro 8:3; Gal 3:3), "a righteousness of our own" from "the [knowledge of good and evil]" (Php 3:9)--but that the works that do justify us at the coming judgment are the "God's righteousness" God performs in us when we walk by faith?

Romans 1
5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake
...
17For in [the Gospel] the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”
Romans 14
5Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
...
23But the one who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that is not from faith is sin.f

But wouldn't this lead us right back to justifying ourselves by our works, so that justification is not a gift?
Unless the righteousness we perform is itself a gift (Ro 5)?
Unless we work as justified people?
Even so, in this case, aren't we still obtaining justification by good works?
But we aren't justifying ourselves, God's righteousness is justifying us when we work God's works.
Eg, Paul says he was abundant in labors, but, since he's "under Grace", it wasn't him but God's grace.

1 Corinthians 15
10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

I don't know of any other way to reconcile the two.

 

[GracePeace]

Also, even with the rule of Romans 14:5 ("each man must be fully persuaded in his own mind") holding true, there is apparently yet a danger of being persuaded incorrectly: Being incorrectly persuaded, persuaded of a lie, with respect to service to God after being saved by grace through faith and receiving the Holy Spirit (Gal 3:1-3), results in deserting God (Gal 1:6), being severed from Christ (Gal 5:4)--the Galatians apparently did not even know they were believing in a lie, but "ignorantia juris non excusat", "ignorance of the Law is no excuse", and, so, they were bearing the penalty.

Galatians 5
7You were running so well. Who has obstructed you from obeying the truth? 8Such persuasion does not come from the One who calls you. 9A little leaven works through the whole batch of dough.

So, how is it that the Galatians were penalized? After having already been saved, they, also, concerning service to God/maturation, were "fully persuaded", and, yet, their "persuasion" did not qualify them as "walking by faith", because it did not come from God, and actually disqualified them concerning the faith--thus, it is possible that a Christian can be "fully persuaded" of the rightness of their way, and still not qualify as "walking by faith" or "revealing God's righteousness", rendering them "condemned" and not "justified" in the present (and, if they don't course correct, "condemned" at the coming judgment). Their "persuasion" may not be from God--what they think is their "service to God", because they are "persuaded" of its correctness, may actually be a denial of the faith, and it may actually be disqualifying. So a person has to be careful in how they proceed in the faith, even if their intentions are good and they think they are doing good work, because they may be tripping over and not know why (though they may feel the distance from God).

Since the Law produces slaves, ipso facto invoking fear--and the Law is merely a species of "the knowledge of good and evil" (so that even a Christian who is not explicitly "under Law" could suffer repercussions as if he were)--I speculate that this revolves around serving with fear (elsewhere, also, God refuses to save His already-saved people if there is fear involved), which, one might suspect, ought to be taken care of by being justified by faith alone.
Relevant would be, "Perfect love casts out fear, because fear has to do with torment," excepting for the fact that it says the one who keeps God's commands is perfect in love.
Well, obviously, the person who does no wrong, but keeps God's commands, has no reason to fear, but this does not lend "perfect love casts out fear" to "we're justified by faith, not works, so we're not afraid, and we can serve without fear, so we're not bearing the penalty of serving under Law/with fear", but lends "perfect love casts out fear" to "the one who knows good if he doesn't do it for him it is sin" and "let each man be fully persuaded in his own mind" (ie, "if you are persuaded to do some good thing, but you don't do it, you're condemned, thus, you must justify yourself by positively doing the good that you know"), which seems problematic... unless you ask God for forgiveness?

@marks I would not mind discussing this with you, since you try to be honest, and you don't fling poop at me.

 

[GracePeace]

Notice: In Galatians, the solution to their error of trying to become perfect by being "under Law" is never "Christ alone--you're not saved by works", the solution to their error is "faith which works by love" and "serve one another by love".

This is a working description of...

Galatians 3
1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

He takes issue with their method of perfection--the Law, which is weak in that it relies on sinful flesh (Ro 8:3), rather than Grace (as explained, serving in the newness of the Spirit of Grace takes the form of walking by one's convictions (Ro 1:17, 14:5,23))--not with their seeking perfection. Yet, somehow, their seeking perfection by the Law is tantamount to seeking justification by works of the Law (which he had already, before, condemned).
So, it is possible that in seeking perfection, progress in spirituality, a person may--even without explicitly being under Law (since, again, the Law is merely a special form of the more generalized knowledge of good and evil that all men, Jew and Gentile, are "under" since Adam)--actually deny justification by faith in Christ. Again, for the aforementioned reasons, I would speculate that this would take the form of serving God in fear, and such a persuasion would not be from God.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Notice: In Galatians, the solution to their error of trying to become perfect by being "under Law" is never "Christ alone--you're not saved by works", the solution to their error is "faith which works by love" and "serve one another by love".

This is a working description of...

Galatians 3
1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

He takes issue with their method of perfection--the Law, which is weak in that it relies on sinful flesh (Ro 8:3), rather than Grace (as explained, serving in the newness of the Spirit of Grace takes the form of walking by one's convictions (Ro 1:17, 14:5,23))--not with their seeking perfection. Yet, somehow, their seeking perfection by the Law is tantamount to seeking justification by works of the Law (which he had already, before, condemned).
So, it is possible that in seeking perfection, progress in spirituality, a person may--even without explicitly being under Law (since, again, the Law is merely a special form of the more generalized knowledge of good and evil that all men, Jew and Gentile, are "under" since Adam)--actually deny justification by faith in Christ. Again, for the aforementioned reasons, I would speculate that this would take the form of serving God in fear, and such a persuasion would not be from God.

Dear GracePeace,

Grace vs. Works. Here is what God's Word teaches:

When a believer is converted, they will enter into the rest of Christ. They will no longer have to observe a day of rest each week as the Old Covenant of Law commands. The converted believer will now rest in Christ every day of the week.

The Old Covenant of Law demands that a person must "work" to earn their salvation. The Sabbath Day ordinance was given to foreshadow the time when a person will no longer have to work. Under the New Covenant, Christ does 100% of the work of our salvation (both the physical and the spiritual work). When we enter into Christ, we enter into His "rest". This is how Christ fulfills the Sabbath Day ordinance:

Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

So what about verses like this one below?

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

After Christ converts a person, they will love Him and will keep His commandments. They do this not by their own work, but because of the spiritual work of Christ that He does within the person:

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

This is how Christ fulfills the Law "within" each of us. Christ does the work of following the commandments for us.

So what are the commandments that Christ causes us to obey?

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

When we love God and our neighbor we are keeping the commandments of Christ. And as Phil 2:13 says, Christ is the one who causes us to keep them. We have no work of our own to perform. If we are not loving God and our neighbor, we are not converted and we are not walking by the Spirit.

Also, consider what Paul said below:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

After Christ converts a believer and causes them to enter into His "rest", Christ will continue to perform all the works which are necessary to mature them so that they produce spiritual fruit. Because Christ does all the work, they have nothing to boast about concerning their salvation. They have become like Christ because Christ lives within them and causes them to "will and do of His good pleasure". This is what the Sabbath Day ordinance foreshadows.

Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his (on the seventh day, the Sabbath Day).

For believers who have not been converted, but have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit, they have not entered into Christ's rest. They still believe that they must "work" to earn their salvation.

Observing the Sabbath Day ordinance is no different than observing the ordinance of circumcision. Here is what Paul said about it:

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Paul says that when a believer tries to keep even one ordinance of the Law, they become a debtor to keeping the whole Law. In other words, they are trying to make themselves acceptable by the Old Covenant of Law which is impossible to do. When a believer falls back to trying to follow the Law (even just one point of the Law), they will no longer be covered by the blood of Christ under the New Covenant of Grace through Faith. They have rendered the sacrifice of Christ to be of no effect and have "fallen from grace".

Satan's "another Gospel" teaches a salvation by works. The Doctrine of Free Will is the foundation of his lie. When a believer accept this false doctrine, they will lose their salvation. Mixing "works" with faith is the sin that leads to death.

1John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

This is how Satan kills the saints and is how the church became apostate.

Joe

 

[GracePeace]

Dear GracePeace,

Grace vs. Works. Here is what God's Word teaches:

When a believer is converted, they will enter into the rest of Christ. They will no longer have to observe a day of rest each week as the Old Covenant of Law commands. The converted believer will now rest in Christ every day of the week.

The Old Covenant of Law demands that a person must "work" to earn their salvation. The Sabbath Day ordinance was given to foreshadow the time when a person will no longer have to work. Under the New Covenant, Christ does 100% of the work of our salvation (both the physical and the spiritual work). When we enter into Christ, we enter into His "rest". This is how Christ fulfills the Sabbath Day ordinance:

Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

So what about verses like this one below?

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

After Christ converts a person, they will love Him and will keep His commandments. They do this not by their own work, but because of the spiritual work of Christ that He does within the person:

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

This is how Christ fulfills the Law "within" each of us. Christ does the work of following the commandments for us.

So what are the commandments that Christ causes us to obey?

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

When we love God and our neighbor we are keeping the commandments of Christ. And as Phil 2:13 says, Christ is the one who causes us to keep them. We have no work of our own to perform. If we are not loving God and our neighbor, we are not converted and we are not walking by the Spirit.

Also, consider what Paul said below:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

After Christ converts a believer and causes them to enter into His "rest", Christ will continue to perform all the works which are necessary to mature them so that they produce spiritual fruit. Because Christ does all the work, they have nothing to boast about concerning their salvation. They have become like Christ because Christ lives within them and causes them to "will and do of His good pleasure". This is what the Sabbath Day ordinance foreshadows.

Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his (on the seventh day, the Sabbath Day).

For believers who have not been converted, but have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit, they have not entered into Christ's rest. They still believe that they must "work" to earn their salvation.

Observing the Sabbath Day ordinance is no different than observing the ordinance of circumcision. Here is what Paul said about it:

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Paul says that when a believer tries to keep even one ordinance of the Law, they become a debtor to keeping the whole Law. In other words, they are trying to make themselves acceptable by the Old Covenant of Law which is impossible to do. When a believer falls back to trying to follow the Law (even just one point of the Law), they will no longer be covered by the blood of Christ under the New Covenant of Grace through Faith. They have rendered the sacrifice of Christ to be of no effect and have "fallen from grace".

Satan's "another Gospel" teaches a salvation by works. The Doctrine of Free Will is the foundation of his lie. When a believer accept this false doctrine, they will lose their salvation. Mixing "works" with faith is the sin that leads to death.

1John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

This is how Satan kills the saints and is how the church became apostate.

Joe

1. As the OP shows, there is a judgment coming at which only doers of the Law will be justified, thus we must ask God how it is that we are both judged justified in the present by faith alone (not by our own works, so that it can be a gift, not a payment), and, yet, how we are judged justified by works of faith both in the present (Ro 14:23; James 2) and future judgments (Ro 2).
We are nowhere permitted to believe only the parts of the Bible we prefer.

2. Now, to say that works will automatically be done by those with "true" faith doesn't work--if that were the case, Christians would not be commanded to yield their members to God as instruments of righteousness (Ro 6:13), since it would be done by itself, nor could they be warned they will not live, but die, if they do not (Ro 8:12,13), nor could they be "condemned" in the present for sinning (Ro 14:23), nor could the Corinthians have been rebuked for their sinful way, nor could James have indicted his audience as "adulteresses" against God and called them to repent and not only have but also walk in faith (Ja 2), nor could the "little children" have been warned to "remain in Him" (1 Jn 2:28) instead of being led away by idols (1 Jn 5:21), nor could Christ have found fault with Churches (Rv 2,3).

 

[GracePeace]

Paul says that when a believer tries to keep even one ordinance of the Law, they become a debtor to keeping the whole Law. In other words, they are trying to make themselves acceptable by the Old Covenant of Law which is impossible to do. When a believer falls back to trying to follow the Law (even just one point of the Law), they will no longer be covered by the blood of Christ under the New Covenant of Grace through Faith. They have rendered the sacrifice of Christ to be of no effect and have "fallen from grace".

Satan's "another Gospel" teaches a salvation by works. The Doctrine of Free Will is the foundation of his lie. When a believer accept this false doctrine, they will lose their salvation. Mixing "works" with faith is the sin that leads to death.

I'm not saying we serve by the Law--in fact, in the replies, I explicitly condemn that--so that's not the issue.

"Salvation by works" (as you are using it) is really a misnomer, as I've argued. Works will save you on the Day of Judgment, so the question is how both can be true, and I've covered some material on how the two might be reconciled.

The objection Paul has to the idea of "justification by works" is if it consists in "a righteousness of my own from [the knowledge of good and evil]", but that form of "righteousness" would, by definition, not encompass "God's righteousness" revealed "from faith to faith" (Ro 1:5,17, 14:5,23)--"our own righteousness" will not justify us, because it isn't up to snuff, but "God's righteousness", working God's works, apparently does justify us.

 

[dev553344]

Men are justified by faith and or works. For those that cannot labor in the field they are justified by faith. But Christ called laborers to the field, so earn what you will for the Lord. Noting that none of these things could truly save you, but Christ alone can save you if he chooses. Yet we are commanded to have faith and if we can labor in the field to have works.

I think it's up to the person to decide how much works he will provide, and also perhaps how much faith also.

 

[GracePeace]

Men are justified by faith and or works. For those that cannot labor in the field they are justified by faith. But Christ called laborers to the field, so earn what you will for the Lord. Noting that none of these things could truly save you, but Christ alone can save you if he chooses. Yet we are commanded to have faith and if we can labor in the field to have works.

I think it's up to the person to decide how much works he will provide, and also perhaps how much faith also.

What does "justified by faith and or works" mean? Does this mean "you have to choose whether you believe you're justified by faith or by works"?

 

[dev553344]

What does "justified by faith and or works" mean? Does this mean "you have to choose whether you believe you're justified by faith or by works"?

Hmmm, the bible spells out in two different places that you are either justified by faith for those that have no works, it also spells out that works justifies a man. That's what it means.

 

[dev553344]

Oh, I don't see it as "or", I see both as true.

Strange:

James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Galatians 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

 

[GracePeace]

Strange:

James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Galatians 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Right, the thread is called "balancing" the two ideas, or "reconciling" them--I've explained how I would reconcile them in the replies.

 

[GracePeace]

Strange:

James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

At least you don't try to wave the reality away, like so many do. LOL

 

[GracePeace]

Strange:

James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Galatians 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

In the replies I've sought to reconcile the two

In Hebrews, it speaks of resting from our own works...

Hebrews 4
10For whoever enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from His. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same pattern of disobedience.

...but, then, speaks of other works we are expected to do, which are done by faith, which are, apparently, in a different category...

Hebrews 11
17By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac on the altar. He who had received the promises was ready to offer his one and only son...37They were stoned, they were sawed in two,f they were put to death by the sword. They went around in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, oppressed, and mistreated. 38The world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and hid in caves and holes in the ground.

Could it be that the works that do not justify us are our own works--"good works" produced by the flesh (Ro 8:3; Gal 3:3), "a righteousness of our own" from "the [knowledge of good and evil]" (Php 3:9)--but that the works that do justify us at the coming judgment are the "God's righteousness" God performs in us when we walk by faith?

Romans 1
5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake
...
17For in [the Gospel] the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”
Romans 14
5Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
...
23But the one who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that is not from faith is sin.f

But wouldn't this lead us right back to justifying ourselves by our works, so that justification is not a gift?
Unless the righteousness we perform is itself a gift (Ro 5)?
Unless we work as justified people?
Even so, in this case, aren't we still obtaining justification by good works?
But we aren't justifying ourselves, God's righteousness is justifying us when we work God's works.
Eg, Paul says he was abundant in labors, but, since he's "under Grace", it wasn't him but God's grace.

1 Corinthians 15
10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

I don't know of any other way to reconcile the two.

Also, even with the rule of Romans 14:5 ("each man must be fully persuaded in his own mind") holding true, there is apparently yet a danger of being persuaded incorrectly: Being incorrectly persuaded, persuaded of a lie, with respect to service to God after being saved by grace through faith and receiving the Holy Spirit (Gal 3:1-3), results in deserting God (Gal 1:6), being severed from Christ (Gal 5:4)--the Galatians apparently did not even know they were believing in a lie, but "ignorantia juris non excusat", "ignorance of the Law is no excuse", and, so, they were bearing the penalty.

Galatians 5
7You were running so well. Who has obstructed you from obeying the truth? 8Such persuasion does not come from the One who calls you. 9A little leaven works through the whole batch of dough.

So, how is it that the Galatians were penalized? After having already been saved, they, also, concerning service to God/maturation, were "fully persuaded", and, yet, their "persuasion" did not qualify them as "walking by faith", because it did not come from God, and actually disqualified them concerning the faith--thus, it is possible that a Christian can be "fully persuaded" of the rightness of their way, and still not qualify as "walking by faith" or "revealing God's righteousness", rendering them "condemned" and not "justified" in the present (and, if they don't course correct, "condemned" at the coming judgment). Their "persuasion" may not be from God--what they think is their "service to God", because they are "persuaded" of its correctness, may actually be a denial of the faith, and it may actually be disqualifying. So a person has to be careful in how they proceed in the faith, even if their intentions are good and they think they are doing good work, because they may be tripping over and not know why (though they may feel the distance from God).

Since the Law produces slaves, ipso facto invoking fear--and the Law is merely a species of "the knowledge of good and evil" (so that even a Christian who is not explicitly "under Law" could suffer repercussions as if he were)--I speculate that this revolves around serving with fear (elsewhere, also, God refuses to save His already-saved people if there is fear involved), which, one might suspect, ought to be taken care of by being justified by faith alone.
Relevant would be, "Perfect love casts out fear, because fear has to do with torment," excepting for the fact that it says the one who keeps God's commands is perfect in love.
Well, obviously, the person who does no wrong, but keeps God's commands, has no reason to fear, but this does not lend "perfect love casts out fear" to "we're justified by faith, not works, so we're not afraid, and we can serve without fear, so we're not bearing the penalty of serving under Law/with fear", but lends "perfect love casts out fear" to "the one who knows good if he doesn't do it for him it is sin" and "let each man be fully persuaded in his own mind" (ie, "if you are persuaded to do some good thing, but you don't do it, you're condemned, thus, you must justify yourself by positively doing the good that you know"), which seems problematic... unless you ask God for forgiveness?

@marks I would not mind discussing this with you, since you try to be honest, and you don't fling poop at me.

etc

 

[dev553344]

In the replies I've sought to reconcile the two



etc

I've just accepted the fact that we are called to labor in the field, but not all of us. For instance I am schizophrenic and do a terrible job at proselyting, in fact I have done more damage than good trying to proselyte, so I will help people and just have faith.

 

[GracePeace]

Strange:

James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Galatians 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Here is the other post about reconciling the two

Notice: In Galatians, the solution to their error of trying to become perfect by being "under Law" is never "Christ alone--you're not saved by works", the solution to their error is "faith which works by love" and "serve one another by love".

This is a working description of...

Galatians 3
1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

He takes issue with their method of perfection--the Law, which is weak in that it relies on sinful flesh (Ro 8:3), rather than Grace (as explained, serving in the newness of the Spirit of Grace takes the form of walking by one's convictions (Ro 1:17, 14:5,23))--not with their seeking perfection. Yet, somehow, their seeking perfection by the Law is tantamount to seeking justification by works of the Law (which he had already, before, condemned).
So, it is possible that in seeking perfection, progress in spirituality, a person may--even without explicitly being under Law (since, again, the Law is merely a special form of the more generalized knowledge of good and evil that all men, Jew and Gentile, are "under" since Adam)--actually deny justification by faith in Christ. Again, for the aforementioned reasons, I would speculate that this would take the form of serving God in fear, and such a persuasion would not be from God.

 

[GracePeace]

I've just accepted the fact that we are called to labor in the field, but not all of us. For instance I am schizophrenic and do a terrible job at proselyting, in fact I have done more damage than good trying to proselyte, so I will help people and just have faith.

Well, I need a coherent message before proceeding, so I have had to study and pray about the things the Bible teaches.

The idea that "I have to have faith" doesn't work unless you know the message you're supposed to be believing--and that is what this thread is about, making sense of the message in order to believe it.

 

[GracePeace]

I've just accepted the fact that we are called to labor in the field, but not all of us. For instance I am schizophrenic and do a terrible job at proselyting, in fact I have done more damage than good trying to proselyte, so I will help people and just have faith.

As I said before, the actual objection Paul seems to have to the idea of "justification by works" is when it consists in "a righteousness of my own from [the knowledge of good and evil]", but that form of "righteousness" would, by definition, not encompass "God's righteousness" revealed "from faith to faith" (Ro 1:5,17, 14:5,23)--"our own righteousness" will not justify us, because it isn't up to snuff, but "God's righteousness", being forgiven and then working God's works, apparently does justify us.

 

[FaithWillDo]

1. As the OP shows, there is a judgment coming at which only doers of the Law will be justified, thus we must ask God how it is that we are both judged justified in the present by faith alone (not by our own works, so that it can be a gift, not a payment), and, yet, how we are judged justified by works of faith both in the present (Ro 14:23; James 2) and future judgments (Ro 2).
We are nowhere permitted to believe only the parts of the Bible we prefer.

2. Now, to say that works will automatically be done by those with "true" faith doesn't work--if that were the case, Christians would not be commanded to yield their members to God as instruments of righteousness (Ro 6:13), since it would be done by itself, nor could they be warned they will not live, but die, if they do not (Ro 8:12,13), nor could they be "condemned" in the present for sinning (Ro 14:23), nor could the Corinthians have been rebuked for their sinful way, nor could James have indicted his audience as "adulteresses" against God and called them to repent and not only have but also walk in faith (Ja 2), nor could the "little children" have been warned to "remain in Him" (1 Jn 2:28) instead of being led away by idols (1 Jn 5:21), nor could Christ have found fault with Churches (Rv 2,3).

Dear GracePeace,
The verses that you mentioned can only be rightly understood when we divide them by believers who have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit and by believers who have received both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit and are converted.

When Christ first comes to an unbeliever, He will give them the Early Rain of the Spirit. With the Early Rain, the believer will have a "measure of faith" and certain spiritual gifts. It is at this point they will make a confession of faith and will enter the church. However, the new believer will remain spiritually blind and carnally minded. In this unconverted state, they are in a spiritual war within themselves. In that war, they should yield their members to God and not to their carnal nature (and at some point, this includes the influence of the spirit of anti-Christ). This is also why Paul chastised the Corinthian church and why he said that they are carnal and not spiritual. They had not yet received the Latter Rain and were not converted.

The time that a believer spends between the Early and Latter Rains is represented by the spiritual symbols "time, times and a half, 3 1/2 years, 42 months or 1260 days". It is during this time that a new believer will fall prey to Satan via the spirit of anti-Christ. This when they become "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45) and become a "man of sin". However, when Paul wrote his letters to the churches he started, the spirit of anti-Christ had not yet devoured the churches. Paul was working with the new believers in the church trying to keep them as a "chaste" virgin until the second coming of Christ when Christ will give them the Latter Rain and convert them. After a new believer is converted, their spiritual blindness will be healed and Christ will appear to them spiritually. In other words, God's Word will open up to their understanding. When this happens, they will "see" the Abomination of Desolation that happened within themselves when Satan devoured them. This is also when the "man of sin" (themselves) is revealed. With this knowledge of the truth, judgment will fall. The spirit of anti-Christ and the Great Harlot (worsened carnal nature) will be removed and destroyed. This is the first part of Christ's judgment. Afterward, the newly converted believer will be chastised by Christ to mature them. This chastisement is to removed all the carnal thoughts and beliefs from within the believer's mind. Once that judgment is complete, they will have "learned" righteousness and be a fully mature child of God who walks by the Spirit.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Joe

 

[GracePeace]

Dear GracePeace,
The verses that you mentioned can only be rightly understood when we divide them by believers who have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit and by believers who have received both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit and are converted.

When Christ first comes to an unbeliever, He will give them the Early Rain of the Spirit. With the Early Rain, the believer will have a "measure of faith" and certain spiritual gifts. It is at this point they will make a confession of faith and will enter the church. However, the new believer will remain spiritually blind and carnally minded. In this unconverted state, they are in a spiritual war within themselves. In that war, they should yield their members to God and not to their carnal nature (and at some point, this includes the influence of the spirit of anti-Christ). This is also why Paul chastised the Corinthian church and why he said that they are carnal and not spiritual. They had not yet received the Latter Rain and were not converted.

The time that a believer spends between the Early and Latter Rains is represented by the spiritual symbols "time, times and a half, 3 1/2 years, 42 months or 1260 days". It is during this time that a new believer will fall prey to Satan via the spirit of anti-Christ. This when they become "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45) and become a "man of sin". However, when Paul wrote his letters to the churches he started, the spirit of anti-Christ had not yet devoured the churches. Paul was working with the new believers in the church trying to keep them as a "chaste" virgin until the second coming of Christ when Christ will give them the Latter Rain and convert them. After a new believer is converted, their spiritual blindness will be healed and Christ will appear to them spiritually. In other words, God's Word will open up to their understanding. When this happens, they will "see" the Abomination of Desolation that happened within themselves when Satan devoured them. This is also when the "man of sin" (themselves) is revealed. With this knowledge of the truth, judgment will fall. The spirit of anti-Christ and the Great Harlot (worsened carnal nature) will be removed and destroyed. This is the first part of Christ's judgment. Afterward, the newly converted believer will be chastised by Christ to mature them. This chastisement is to removed all the carnal thoughts and beliefs from within the believer's mind. Once that judgment is complete, they will have "learned" righteousness and be a fully mature child of God who walks by the Spirit.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Joe

I'm not going to go out of my way to use or wrangle about terms not used by the Apostles--eg, "early rain".

The texts are difficult enough to understand on their own without introducing new terminologies.