BAPTISM SAVES, FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS"

[epostle]

You obviously have me mixed up with someone else, I say just the opposite, and I confront you.

But I see you hate spiritualizing everything. Me, I love it! Go figure, God is spirit.

First, your interpretation of Dan. 2:44 and Jer.33:17 as being purely spiritual kingdoms is false and nonsensical. You dreamed that up because you are anti-church and those verses CLEARLY support a physical, earthly "kingdom" and you can't stand it.

Second, your misrepresentation of what I said is another evil falsehood. I don't "hate" spiritualizing when it is called for. That is another one of your LIES.
Yes, God is spirit and Jesus has a physical body, and Jesus is God. Do you deny this too???
Third, Dualism appears in Protestantism in varying degrees, sometimes none at all, but you are the most GNOSTIC/DUALISTIC Christian I have ever met in the 25 years I've been in forums.
Gnosticism is a very broad term, specifically you are a Dualist in your general approach to just about everything.

God is spirit. What exactly His spiritness is we don’t know. However, we do know that within the realms of the unseen came the seen. Into His vast deep cosmos, He spoke and there was material. Before He introduced man onto this earth, He created matter by which man could interact with God. He looked upon the heavens, the earth, the seas and the creatures He had breathed into existence and He pronounced them good. The material world, matter, physicalness is good! THIS YOU DENY!

Creating us to enjoy and interrelate with matter, God gifted us with eyes to see the colors, shapes, textures, shadows and light. He gave us hearing to understand depth and balance, to delight in music and voices, wind and waves. We can taste, touch and smell the physical realm. The material world allows us to interact with ourselves, others and God. Imagine trying to know God without senses. Yet, we also know there is much more than what our senses can identify. There is the spiritual world that is experienced beyond matter. Both the physical and the spiritual are integral to knowing God. THIS YOU DENY.

The effects of disobeying our Creator was the tearing apart of perfect unity--the oneness--of spiritual and material. Isolation infiltrated our existence and we began our irreversible drift from God. Human interrelationships deteriorated, and our beings, both our souls and our bodies began decomposing until finally--death--the material disappears. The world grew fragmented on the spiritual level and worked its way down to the microscopic level. The immaculate and spotless system collapsed.

Then the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus, Son of God, stepped into the world of matter and began the process of reunifying what had shattered. We still breathlessly await the final restoration of both the physical and spiritual when Christ comes again.

Get it, Scott? both the physical and spiritual. Your accusation of me hating the spiritual because you over-emphasize it at the expense of the physical is another prot-cult satanic lie.

Every time you are confronted with your stupid misrepresentations and straw man fallacies, you weasel your way out by shifting the topic, like you just did. You cannot explain your anti-Catholic bigotry because their is no explanation. That's why you make up nonsense.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Indeed, we are getting somewhere, just not where you think.

We have come to confirm just "As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one;"...not even the early church fathers, or the martyrs. Be they apostles, fathers, or martyrs, does not prove them correct in all things. Nonetheless, just as it was with Israel, their imperfection has contributed to "work all things together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose."

No - being wrong on non-essentials is ONE thing.
Being an IDOLATER is quite another . . .

1 Cor. 6:9-10
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor IDOLATERS nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

If YOU believe worship of the Eucharist to be idolatry - then you MUST agree that the ECFs were IDOLATERS who will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God.

You cannot have it BOTH ways. Either they were idolaters who taught millions of people to be idolaters - or they were CORRECT in their teaching on the Real Presence in the Eucharist.
Scripture shows them to be in Heaven . . .

Rev. 6:9
When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

 

[ScottA]

First, your interpretation of Dan. 2:44

Oh, how fun - you have given me enough error to be busy until the end of time. Not that I should bother, since you have no love for my spiritualizing for you, and your apparent disdain for God whom is spirit.

But one thing at a time:

Daniel 2:44
"And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever."

And here is the answer to your arrogant assertion about what you obviously have not considered and cannot reconcile with your misguided interpretation:

2 Peter 3:10–12
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?"

...No fair commenting until I am through answering all your questions/assertions above in post #541.

 

[ScottA]

First, your interpretation of Dan. 2:44 and Jer.33:17 as being purely spiritual kingdoms is false and nonsensical. You dreamed that up because you are anti-church and those verses CLEARLY support a physical, earthly "kingdom" and you can't stand it.

This one is a really fun one - but do stop me if I go over your head:

Jeremiah 33:17
“For thus says the Lord: ‘David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel;"

...Obviously, you have never answered this question (below) that Jesus asked people like yourself during His time that didn't know about spiritual things. But darn, you will have to have the correct answer...or there is no point in going on to all your other errors and misunderstandings. So, answer this first:

Mark 12:35
"Then Jesus answered and said, while He taught in the temple, “How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the Son of David?"

...When you have answer this, perhaps we can have some more fun and continue on with your error and confusion list. No fair jumping ahead!

 

[epostle]

Oh, how fun - you have given me enough error to be busy until the end of time. Not that I should bother, since you have no love for my spiritualizing for you, and your apparent disdain for God whom is spirit.

"Apparent disdain for God whom is spirit" is another LIE, trying to affirm what I never said or implied in the first place. The problem with your LIE is you have to back it up with another LIE.

But one thing at a time:

Daniel 2:44
"And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever."

And here is the answer to your arrogant assertion about what you obviously have not considered and cannot reconcile with your misguided interpretation:

2 Peter 3:10–12
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?"

...No fair commenting until I am through answering all your questions/assertions above in post #541.

Exegesis of text is NOT interpreting. 2 Peter 3:10–12 is about the end of time, it has NOTHING to do with the prophecies of Daniel 2:44 and Jeremiah 33:17, and I challenge you to find ANY Protestant commentary that agrees with your bible twisting.

What is arrogant is your ridiculous spiritualizing "the days of the kings", and the fact that the historic CHURCH, that can never be destroyed, turns your stomach. So you insult her with stupid misrepresentations. Worse, you demonize Christ by demonizing His Church, which is an extension of the Incarnation. The CHURCH is not a country club of your imagination.

You equate sinful behavior with what you think are doctrines, with no evidence, and no explanations. Get this through your thick skull: sins are not doctrines.
Do you really think the councils who clarified the Trinity in the 4th century were charlatans? Your ignorance and hostility is beyond words.

 

[ScottA]

No - being wrong on non-essentials is ONE thing.
Being an IDOLATER is quite another . . .

1 Cor. 6:9-10
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor IDOLATERS nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

If YOU believe worship of the Eucharist to be idolatry - then you MUST agree that the ECFs were IDOLATERS who will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God.

You cannot have it BOTH ways. Either they were idolaters who taught millions of people to be idolaters - or they were CORRECT in their teaching on the Real Presence in the Eucharist.
Scripture shows them to be in Heaven . . .

Rev. 6:9
When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

You are still trying to fit this all into your own terms...which is getting in the way of you fully understanding. I recommend you embrace the idea of renewing your mind.

Nonetheless, the terms you have stated are clear enough and true: those early church fathers who made idols of the bread and the wine as if inanimate objects were God...will not inherit the kingdom of God. They were false teachers.

But do not assume that holding the title of leader, made them such. Many were followers, but followers of men. Can you not relate?

 

[mjrhealth]

Worse, you demonize Christ by demonizing His Church, an extension of the Incarnation.

Actually you are, you are calling Christs church a Harlot.... And that is straight from helll

 

[BreadOfLife]

You are still trying to fit this all into your own terms...which is getting in the way of you fully understanding. I recommend you embrace the idea of renewing your mind.

Nonetheless, the terms you have stated are clear enough and true: those early church fathers who made idols of the bread and the wine as if inanimate objects were God...will not inherit the kingdom of God. They were false teachers.

But do not assume that holding the title of leader, made them such. Many were followers, but followers of men. Can you not relate?

WRONG.

According to the New Testament - they were the LEADERS of the Church - who, according to YOU were leading millions astray. The Bible calls them "Episkopoi" (Overseers/Bishops) and they were responsible for shepherding Christ's flock.

As I have shown on several occasions now - the Leaders of the Church will be held to a more stringent judgment than the rest of us (James 3:1, Matt. 15:14, Luke 12:48, Heb 13:17, Mark 9:42).
If they are right - they will share in their Master's joy.
If they are WRONG - they will be condemned.

So - we have come to the following conclusions:
- The Early Church Fathers were the Bishops/Overseers of the Church.
- They were the Martyrs of the Early Church by the Romans.
- As Martyrs - they are described in Rev. 6:9, as being in Heaven.
- They UNANIMOUSLY preached on the Real Presence of the Eucharist and taught the worship of it as the Body and Blood of Christ.

- According to YOU - they are GUILTY of Idolatry and leading millions of others to idolatry and will have NO part in the Kingdom of God.
- BUT - as Martyrs - the Bible describes them in Rev. 6:9, as being in Heaven.

Ergo - YOU disagree with Scripture.

 

[ScottA]

Apparently you don't remember speaking against God whom is spirit, as you did below. So here it is again:

Only because your force them to mean the opposite of what they say.

Jer. 33:17 does not say "spiritual David" , invisible heavenly throne of the heavenly only House of Israel. Dan. 2:44 does not say– in the time of the spiritual kings...
Your Gnosticism, spiritualizing everything in sight, is glaring and you cannot defend this heresy. You support Gnosticism all over this board. When challenged to produce evidence, or an explanation of your EVIL insults, you change the subject or run and hide. If you hate the Catholic Church, you hate Jesus. Period.

...Obviously, the "EVIL insults" and "lies" are yours.

 

[Waiting on him]

Apparently you don't remember speaking against God whom is spirit, as you did below. So here it is again:
...Obviously, the "EVIL insults" and "lies" are yours.

My answer to the OP is you don’t have to be baptized with water to receive salvation, but if your baptized before being saved you just come out of the water a clean sinner.

 

[epostle]

Actually you are, you are calling Christs church a Harlot.... And that is straight from helll

Tell that to Dave Hunt.

 

[ScottA]

WRONG.

According to the New Testament - they were the LEADERS of the Church - who, according to YOU were leading millions astray. The Bible calls them "Episkopoi" (Overseers/Bishops) and they were responsible for shepherding Christ's flock.

As I have shown on several occasions now - the Leaders of the Church will be held to a more stringent judgment than the rest of us (James 3:1, Matt. 15:14, Luke 12:48, Heb 13:17, Mark 9:42).
If they are right - they will share in their Master's joy.
If they are WRONG - they will be condemned.

So - we have come to the following conclusions:
- The Early Church Fathers were the Bishops/Overseers of the Church.
- They were the Martyrs of the Early Church by the Romans.
- As Martyrs - they are described in Rev. 6:9, as being in Heaven.
- They UNANIMOUSLY preached on the Real Presence of the Eucharist and taught the worship of it as the Body and Blood of Christ.

- According to YOU - they are GUILTY of Idolatry and leading millions of others to idolatry and will have NO part in the Kingdom of God.
- BUT - as Martyrs - the Bible describes them in Rev. 6:9, as being in Heaven.

Ergo - YOU disagree with Scripture.

Again, this very thing occurred with Israel, and was explained by Christ in Matthew 23. Such leaders are indeed held accountable.

But you are then assuming also that the martyrs were those same offenders, when they are not. Is every leader in the church a martyr? Certainly not. They may have been unanimous in there teaching, but not in their testimony. You have assumed too much.

 

[ScottA]

Second, your misrepresentation of what I said is another evil falsehood. I don't "hate" spiritualizing when it is called for. That is another one of your LIES.

I was quoting you using "spiritualizing" as a bad word.

The point is...spiritualizing is the most godly thing that could be done, the very thing that God is doing for the salvation of His children.

And you don't like it so much you use it as criticism.

 

[epostle]

Apparently you don't remember speaking against God whom is spirit, as you did below. So here it is again:
...Obviously, the "EVIL insults" and "lies" are yours.

The early church fathers absolutely perverted the gospel - they were wrong.

They were wrong when The Early Church Fathers discerned the books of the New Testament? Your ignorance is astounding!

speaking against God whom is spirit, as you did below.

And you post the SAME LIE THREE TIMES!!!

 

[ScottA]

Yes, God is spirit and Jesus has a physical body, and Jesus is God. Do you deny this too???

Jesus [had] a physical body.

 

[ScottA]

Third, Dualism appears in Protestantism in varying degrees, sometimes none at all, but you are the most GNOSTIC/DUALISTIC Christian I have ever met in the 25 years I've been in forums.
Gnosticism is a very broad term, specifically you are a Dualist in your general approach to just about everything.

Another name-caller's 'ism I will have to look up to understand and to know what some people think of those who have been born again of the spirit of God, caught up above the earth in the revelations of the the Lord.

 

[ScottA]

God is spirit. What exactly His spiritness is we don’t know.

I know.

 

[ScottA]

God is spirit. What exactly His spiritness is we don’t know. However, we do know that within the realms of the unseen came the seen. Into His vast deep cosmos, He spoke and there was material. Before He introduced man onto this earth, He created matter by which man could interact with God. He looked upon the heavens, the earth, the seas and the creatures He had breathed into existence and He pronounced them good. The material world, matter, physicalness is good! THIS YOU DENY!

Creating us to enjoy and interrelate with matter, God gifted us with eyes to see the colors, shapes, textures, shadows and light. He gave us hearing to understand depth and balance, to delight in music and voices, wind and waves. We can taste, touch and smell the physical realm. The material world allows us to interact with ourselves, others and God. Imagine trying to know God without senses. Yet, we also know there is much more than what our senses can identify. There is the spiritual world that is experienced beyond matter. Both the physical and the spiritual are integral to knowing God. THIS YOU DENY.

Don't you have an 'ism for someone who imagines all of what you just said?

Actually, it's not that big of a mystery: Technically (even scientifically) speaking, matter is energy, and the seen (visible) world is light divided from darkness.

What's there to deny?

 

[mjrhealth]

Tell that to Dave Hunt.

Who is Dave Hunt???

 

[ScottA]

The effects of disobeying our Creator was the tearing apart of perfect unity--the oneness--of spiritual and material. Isolation infiltrated our existence and we began our irreversible drift from God. Human interrelationships deteriorated, and our beings, both our souls and our bodies began decomposing until finally--death--the material disappears. The world grew fragmented on the spiritual level and worked its way down to the microscopic level. The immaculate and spotless system collapsed.

Then the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus, Son of God, stepped into the world of matter and began the process of reunifying what had shattered. We still breathlessly await the final restoration of both the physical and spiritual when Christ comes again.

Get it, Scott? both the physical and spiritual. Your accusation of me hating the spiritual because you over-emphasize it at the expense of the physical is another prot-cult satanic lie.

That is not biblical.

The scriptures tell us that the physical body "returns to the earth as it was" and that "both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up."

But here you are propagating a lie. "Another prot-cult satanic lie?" Perhaps.