BAPTISM SAVES, FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS"

[Jane_Doe22]

Again, you miss the point. The Church does not hold Protestants today accountable for the errors of the reformers. A non Catholic can have lots of faith in the Bible, but when it comes to believing what the Bible says about God preserving an infallible, indefectible, hierarchical, supernatural CHURCH, where is their faith? Where is yours? Suddenly the truth of Scripture becomes relative.

A Protestant can have just a much faith in those verses as a Catholic does. It is a different understanding, but the faith is just the same.
Let us acknowledge each other's faith and not just ignore it because it's different than ours. Such ignoring only propagates destructive "anti" attitudes all around.

 

[ScottA]

No - YOUR assumption that the 7 churches were ALL that existed at the time is really ignorant. They were but a small sampling of the churches at the time.

"A small sampling" - that is what I said. It is not "ignorant"...it is a [perfect] sampling.

 

[BreadOfLife]

"A small sampling" - that is what I said. It is not "ignorant"...it is a [perfect] sampling.

No – the letters were specific to those 7 Churches. There is nothing to indicate that they were a“microcosm” of the entire Church.

YOUR problem is your rejection of the Eucharist – even though the ENTIRE Church unanimously agreed on the Real Presence until the 16th century. YOUR idea that Jesus lied about the gates of Hell prevailing against His Church for 15 centuries because it was nothing more than a gaggle of idolaters is not only anti-Biblical – it’s asinine.

 

[ScottA]

No – the letters were specific to those 7 Churches. There is nothing to indicate that they were a“microcosm” of the entire Church.

YOUR problem is your rejection of the Eucharist – even though the ENTIRE Church unanimously agreed on the Real Presence until the 16th century. YOUR idea that Jesus lied about the gates of Hell prevailing against His Church for 15 centuries because it was nothing more than a gaggle of idolaters is not only anti-Biblical – it’s asinine.

I have given the best example of the imperfection of the church and their ability to come up with religious practices by their own interpretation. But if you require more, by all means, let's hear how perfect the rest of the churches were.

But I am toying with you...because you are being ridiculous.

The other churches were no better...it is a pointless argument. You are avoiding the obvious because you have put your faith in their imperfect interpretations and practices as if thousands of would-be leaders could not be wrong, when the scriptures say "none are righteous, no not one", with the warning that if they were not they would suffer a worse blindness than came upon Israel.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I have given the best example of the imperfection of the church and their ability to come up with religious practices by their own interpretation. But if you require more, by all means, let's hear how perfect the rest of the churches were.

But I am toying with you...because you are being ridiculous.

The other churches were no better...it is a pointless argument. You are avoiding the obvious because you have put your faith in their imperfect interpretations and practices as if thousands of would-be leaders could not be wrong, when the scriptures say "none are righteous, no not one", with the warning that if they were not they would suffer a worse blindness than came upon Israel.

Can you think pf another doctrine or belief that the ENTIRE Church was in agreement on for the first 1500 years that was wrong?

 

[mjrhealth]

YOUR idea that Jesus lied about the gates of Hell prevailing against His Church

Jesus never lied about His churh, it is you who is doing that by calling His church a harlot. He never said the gates of hell would not prevail against the catholic or any on mens churches in fact like yours they are filled with heresies and teh works of teh devil.

1Co_6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

keep digging your grave, is it not deep enough...

 

[BreadOfLife]

Jesus never lied about His churh, it is you who is doing that by calling His church a harlot. He never said the gates of hell would not prevail against the catholic or any on mens churches in fact like yours they are filled with heresies and teh works of teh devil.

1Co_6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

keep digging your grave, is it not deep enough...

First of all – I never said that Christ’s Church was a “harlot”. I challenge you to show me the post where I supposedly made this comment. Why don’t you try having an honest conversation for a change, Einstein? Too difficult for you??

Secondly – Christ said that the gates of Hell would NOT prevail against His Church (Matt. 16:18).
That Church has been called “The Catholic Church” since the first century. The 1st century bishop of Antioch (St. Ignatius) referred to the “Catholic Church” in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans in 107 AD.

There was no TV, no radio, no newspaper, no internet – just word of mouth. For Ignatius to have written to his readers using this term and expecting them to understand what he was talking about – it doesn’t make ANY sense unless it was already universally recognized as “The Catholic Church”.

At some point, you have to use your brain and ability to reason, Einstein. . .

 

[mjrhealth]

I never said that Christ’s Church was a “harlot”

you did when you said your church is His Church, you do that everyday.

Secondly – Christ said that the gates of Hell would NOT prevail against His Church (Matt. 16:18).
yep not the catholic church or any of mens churches whose sins are being exposed everyday, Sorry bold is your doing.

Eph_5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

and yours is stained with the blood of the innocent.. Its in the papers in the news every day her sins exposed.

God bless

 

[ScottA]

Can you think pf another doctrine or belief that the ENTIRE Church was in agreement on for the first 1500 years that was wrong?

There are several. But, seriously, that's your defense? Your criteria for what is right and wrong...is people following people?

That reminds me of a bumper sticker: "Eat Lamb - 1,000,000 coyotes can't be wrong!"

Seriously...I have already given the example of the leaders of Israel being wrong, which should be enough. God has listed several. I have no need to list them for you. The word is full of examples of "chosen" people not doing what is right in the eyes of the Lord. You would do better to do just the opposite!

As for the church, the jury is not in yet...you are going to have to make your own choices just as Israel did...and that is the point: Each must walk through the valley of decision. And the leaders don't have a good track record.

 

[BreadOfLife]

you did when you said your church is His Church, you do that everyday.

Secondly – Christ said that the gates of Hell would NOT prevail against His Church (Matt. 16:18).
yep not the catholic church or any of mens churches whose sins are being exposed everyday, Sorry bold is your doing.

Eph_5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

and yours is stained with the blood of the innocent.. Its in the papers in the news every day her sins exposed.

God bless

And the biggest HOLE in your rant – as I already showed you - is that it can illustrated that the Catholic Church was the Church of the FIRST century. I showed you a direct quote from Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch who was a pupil of the Apostle John in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans:

St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch
“Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church”.

"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead." (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 107]).

Hmmmmmm – now, WHICH Church does this sound like??

Obedience to the Bishops, priests and deacons – The Eucharist, the Real Presence, etc. It doesn’t sound like ANY Protestant denomination. It sounds like the CATHOLIC CHURCH.

 

[BreadOfLife]

There are several. But, seriously, that's your defense? Your criteria for what is right and wrong...is people following people?

That reminds me of a bumper sticker: "Eat Lamb - 1,000,000 coyotes can't be wrong!"

Seriously...I have already given the example of the leaders of Israel being wrong, which should be enough. God has listed several. I have no need to list them for you. The word is full of examples of "chosen" people not doing what is right in the eyes of the Lord. You would do better to do just the opposite!

As for the church, the jury is not in yet...you are going to have to make your own choices just as Israel did...and that is the point: Each must walk through the valley of decision. And the leaders don't have a good track record.

You have been shown that the doctrine of the Real Presence was a unanimous belief of the Church for 1500 years – yet you refuse to accept it.

You have been given the Scripture verses that support it – yet you have refused to believe them.

You stated that this belief is nothing short of IDOLATRY – damning ALL Christians for 1500 years to perdition and implying that only people AFTER the Protestant Revolt were saved.

You have been challenged to come up with just ONE other unanimously-believed doctrine of the Church for 1500 years – yet you have failed to produce one.

This is what we educated people refer to as living in denial.

 

[mjrhealth]

And the biggest HOLE in your rant – as I already showed you - is that it can illustrated that the Catholic Church was the Church of the FIRST century. I showed you a direct quote from Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch who was a pupil of the Apostle John in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans:

St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch
“Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church”.

"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead." (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 107]).

Hmmmmmm – now, WHICH Church does this sound like??

Obedience to the Bishops, priests and deacons – The Eucharist, the Real Presence, etc. It doesn’t sound like ANY Protestant denomination. It sounds like the CATHOLIC CHURCH.

see BOL I dont have to rant, nor shout nor quote mens religious doctrines because I know that youre religion like all mens religions are an abomination unto God, and I am not going to sit here and help you dig your grave, you are doing it fine on your own.

 

[ScottA]

You have been shown that the doctrine of the Real Presence was a unanimous belief of the Church for 1500 years – yet you refuse to accept it.

No, not at all - I accept it.

You have been given the Scripture verses that support it – yet you have refused to believe them.

No, not at all - I believe it.

You stated that this belief is nothing short of IDOLATRY – damning ALL Christians for 1500 years to perdition and implying that only people AFTER the Protestant Revolt were saved.

No, you have not been listening - I said more than once, that some are condemned and some are not.

And on the contrary, I have explained (and you refuse to believe) that God does not view all in one group as you do, which I did with the word of Jesus on it, by the precedence set forth at Calvary regarding Israel: "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

You have been challenged to come up with just ONE other unanimously-believed doctrine of the Church for 1500 years – yet you have failed to produce one.

This is what we educated people refer to as living in denial.

Which we who have the spirit of God refer to as "blindness"...for I have explained that the jury for the church is not yet in - there is still time for you. And yet I gave the exact example given by God, the blessing unto all nations: Israel. Yet, even though it is not from me, but from God, you do not receive it.

You are a hard case, and therefore I suspect you are too proud to deny all that you have learned from men, to receive only what is from God.

So be it.

 

[ScottA]

And the biggest HOLE in your rant – as I already showed you - is that it can illustrated that the Catholic Church was the Church of the FIRST century. I showed you a direct quote from Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch who was a pupil of the Apostle John in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans:

St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch
“Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church”.

"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead." (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 107]).

Hmmmmmm – now, WHICH Church does this sound like??

Obedience to the Bishops, priests and deacons – The Eucharist, the Real Presence, etc. It doesn’t sound like ANY Protestant denomination. It sounds like the CATHOLIC CHURCH.

This is the argument of a child, saying "Mine!"

These are not the words and actions of a member of His church which according to the scriptures is made without hands, but of the world.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, not at all - I accept it.
No, not at all - I believe it.
No, you have not been listening - I said more than once, that some are condemned and some are not.

And on the contrary, I have explained (and you refuse to believe) that God does not view all in one group as you do, which I did with the word of Jesus on it, by the precedence set forth at Calvary regarding Israel: "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
Which we who have the spirit of God refer to as "blindness"...for I have explained that the jury for the church is not yet in - there is still time for you. And yet I gave the exact example given by God, the blessing unto all nations: Israel. Yet, even though it is not from me, but from God, you do not receive it.

You are a hard case, and therefore I suspect you are too proud to deny all that you have learned from men, to receive only what is from God.

So be it.

ALL you had to say is, “No - I can’t think of ANY other doctrine that was unanimously believed in for the first 1500 years of the Church’s history - -then rejected by Protestants.”


Actually, I can - but YOU can’t . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

see BOL I dont have to rant, nor shout nor quote mens religious doctrines because I know that youre religion like all mens religions are an abomination unto God, and I am not going to sit here and help you dig your grave, you are doing it fine on your own.

TRANSLATION:
“I don’t have a rational or intelligent response for the overwhelming evidence you’re presented so I’ll stick to making moronic comments.”

 

[BreadOfLife]

This is the argument of a child, saying "Mine!"

These are not the words and actions of a member of His church which according to the scriptures is made without hands, but of the world.

No - it is simply hard evidence that YOU refuse to accept.
Denial and refusal to accept the truth is the act of a child . . .

 

[ScottA]

ALL you had to say is, “No - I can’t think of ANY other doctrine that was unanimously believed in for the first 1500 years of the Church’s history - -then rejected by Protestants.”


Actually, I can - but YOU can’t . . .

Give yourself a pat on the back (no one else is going to). But have you heard anything?

 

[ScottA]

No - it is simply hard evidence that YOU refuse to accept.
Denial and refusal to accept the truth is the act of a child . . .

The only thing I have denied or refused, was your claims that that segment of the church you practice with, was right. Because your only real defense or proof came down to the interpretations of men. Which proves nothing, except that you have taken sides, the side of men.

 

[mjrhealth]

TRANSLATION:
“I don’t have a rational or intelligent response for the overwhelming evidence you’re presented so I’ll stick to making moronic comments.”

like I said I dont have to yell, those who have the truth dont need violence to get the truth across, while those whose lifes are a complete lie do, and you are the perfect example. And no im not giving you a shovel you already have one.

Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Joh 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

God bless