BAPTISM SAVES, FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS"

[Ernest T. Bass]

This is my opinion on the matter. If a person told me they believe in Jesus but yet refuses water baptism, then I would assume they do not have true faith. How can one have confidence in their faith if they are unwilling to follow the commands of God? That faith is disobedient. Even Jesus was baptized. To reject water baptism is to reject one of the most beautiful acts a person can participate in. It re-enacts the Gospel. Why wouldn't a professing believer in Christ not want to be baptized? It is more than just getting wet, it is a clear status change in everyway possible.

You say baptism "re-enacts the Gospel" From my thread on 2 Thessalonians 1:8 the Gospel must be obeyed if one does not want to be lost in flaming fire. And one obeys the gospel when one is water baptized where the old man of sin DIES, is BURIED in a watery grave then RESURRECTED up from that watery grave to walk in newness of life. Therefore NOT being water baptized is DISOBEDIENCE, sin, rejecting the gospel of Christ. Again, Acts 2:41 the implication of this verse is those that rejected being baptized were the ones that did not receive Peter's gospel word. Water baptism therefore is not an option.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Water baptism has always been an Israel thing and there are references to it in the OT. Everyone in the Bible that was water baptized was either a Jew or was a saved Gentile during the Acts period, all of whom were part of Israel, since they were all grafted into Israel.

We today are not a part of Israel in any imaginable way. In fact, there is no Israel today, in God's eyes, and hasn't been for 1954 years. They will be back as God's people shortly though, in about 2064. We Gentiles are God's chosen people today. The only place you'll find our marching orders for today and what our exact future will bring is in Paul's 7 epistles written AFTER Acts. Water baptism isn't mentioned in those 7 ALL-GENTILE books. If it doesn't specifically say so in those 7 books, it doesn't belong to you. The other 59 books are totally for Israel. Except for Christ, nothing EVER given to Israel was also given to the Gentiles.

Here's a few things that were NEVER, EVER given to you. There are 100s more that the Denominational Church System has stolen from Israel. It really makes no difference, though. Since none of these things were ever given to you, you'll never get them anyway. Go to Paul's last 7 books and see what REALLY belongs to you. Heaven, for example, which no Jew (except Christ) EVER had a chance of going to. Search and See!! Millions of times better than anything ever given to Israel.

These things don't belong to you, or me or anyone, Jew or Gentile, saved after about 64AD. Different people. Different Times. Different Dispensation.
---the rapture,
---the Gifts,
---the New Jerusalem,
---the Acts Church,
---water baptism,
---communion,
---the Lord's prayer,
---the Sermon on the Mount,
---the Kingdom of Heaven,
---the Great Commission,
---the New Covenant,

There is no verse that limits water baptism to just fleshly Israel. Acts 15:11 Peter says Jews and Gentiles are saved in a "like manner" way and that like manner way was water baptism being commanded to both Jew (Acts 2:38) and Gentile (Acts 10:47-48).

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Oh look, it's this one again!

Water baptism is a man performed ritual and man performed rituals in and of themselves do not save.

What verse do you have to support this statement?

 

[ScottA]

WRONG.
Nicodemus was asking about REBIRTH, not initial, uterine birth.

No...he was only REFERRING to initial birth asking how rebirth was even possible. Jesus set him straight, but apparently not everyone understood.

 

[LC627]

Now, now. Let's not ignore your Christian history and what I have already stated as fact: We KNOW thru early Christian writings, specifically the Diache (70-80AD), which was written before the book of Revelations, that immersion ONLY was not used. The 70-80AD writing is a few years before your 253AD reference of which I am proud of you for knowing.

Scripture says baptism saves. You don't believe Scripture?

Be honest here LC....Scripture does NOT say immersion, the earliest written recordings from your Christian brothers did not say immersion only, the earliest Christian art work showing baptism and the use of sea shells for pouring on the baptized does not support immersion only and the word baptizo does not only mean immersion.

Scripture says that God's grace saves us.
You might want to read Romans 4 and see how one is made right in God's sight.
You forgot the other part Peter wrote too, "not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience towards God."

****We are heading out of the town for the holidays so I will be gone for a few days; I will see you all soon!! I hope everyone has a blessed/safe Thanksgiving.***

 

[Hidden In Him]

The water of Baptism symbolizes the washing of the Holy Spirit and has NOTHING to do with getting wet.

Well, I agree with parts of your post, but this statement here is something I would have to take issue with unfortunately. There is a reference to the washing of the water of the word, but water baptism itself symbolizes being buried, with the water symbolizing the earth we get buried under.

Maybe some quotes from the Early Church Fathers (preferably Ante-Nicene) to support the idea that the water symbolizes the washing of the Holy Spirit would be interesting.

P.S. Any references that you have would be interesting actually. I just personally view the earliest Fathers more favorably than the latter ones theologically.

 

[Enoch111]

I just personally view the earliest Fathers more favorably than the latter ones theologically.

Unfortunately, they too began to modify the meaning of water baptism very early.

"Diversity in doctrine can be seen as early as the writings of the Apostolic Fathers. In the generation or two that immediately succeeded the apostolic era, we find that New Testament concepts about baptism are subtly modified, and new elements are added to this teaching, by the authors of these writings...

https://pastorstevesstudy.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/baptism-in-the-apostolic-fathers.pdf

 

[Marymog]

Scripture says that God's grace saves us.
You might want to read Romans 4 and see how one is made right in God's sight.
You forgot the other part Peter wrote too, "not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience towards God."

****We are heading out of the town for the holidays so I will be gone for a few days; I will see you all soon!! I hope everyone has a blessed/safe Thanksgiving.***

Bible study....LOVE IT!!

If that was all that Scripture said about how to be saved Scripture would be only a few short words. There is more to Scripture on this subject than you are alluding to.

Scripture also says that baptism saves us (1 Peter 3:21), That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth and believe you will be saved (Romans 10:9-10, John 3:16), whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Romans 10:13), unless you are born of water and Spirit you cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5) a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone (James 2:24)

Be honest here LC....Scripture does NOT say immersion, the earliest written recordings from your Christian brothers did not say immersion only, the earliest Christian art work showing baptism and the use of sea shells for pouring on the baptized does not support immersion only and the word baptizo does not only mean immersion.

You (and others) improperly use 17 words to back up your theory. If you put it all in context then you will see the Truth. Throw away your 500 year tradition and grasp the 2,000 year teaching of The Church.

I will make a deal with you. If you can show me where your theory was taught, accepted and practiced 2,000 years ago I will come over to your side and leave The Church.

Patient Mary

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well, I agree with parts of your post, but this statement here is something I would have to take issue with unfortunately. There is a reference to the washing of the water of the word, but water baptism itself symbolizes being buried, with the water symbolizing the earth we get buried under.

Maybe some quotes from the Early Church Fathers (preferably Ante-Nicene) to support the idea that the water symbolizes the washing of the Holy Spirit would be interesting.

P.S. Any references that you have would be interesting actually. I just personally view the earliest Fathers more favorably than the latter ones theologically.

From the earliest of times - the Church saw Baptism as REGENERATIVE ans efficacious for the FORGIVENESS/WASHING AWAY OF SINS . . .

Hermas
“‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’” (The Shepherd4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).

Justin Martyr
“As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are REGENERATED in the same manner in which we were ourselves REGENERATED. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Tertullian
“Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).
“Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (ibid., 12).

Hippolytus
For thus the [prophet] has sworn to us: ‘Amen, I say to you, unless you are born again with living water, into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ Therefore, fly to the water, for this alone can extinguish the fire. He who will not come to the water still carries around with him the spirit of insanity for the sake of which he will not come to the living water for his own salvation” (Homilies 11:26 [A.D. 217]).

Origen
“It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism” (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
“If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who even without water will receive the kingdom.
. . . For the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism, saying, ‘Can you drink the cup which I drink and be baptized with the baptism with which I am to be baptized [Mark 10:38]?’ [1 Cor. 4:9]” (Catechetical Lectures 3:10 [A.D. 350]).

Pope Siricius
“It would tend to the ruin of our souls if, from our refusal of the saving font of baptism to those who seek it, any of them should depart this life and lose the kingdom and eternal life” (Letter to Himerius 3 [A.D. 385]).

Augustine
“There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized” (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).

“[According to] apostolic tradition . . . the churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal. This is the witness of Scripture too” (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:24:34 [A.D. 412]).

 

[ScottA]

@BreadOfLife

Hey...you got one right! Where did it go?

 

[BreadOfLife]

No...he was only REFERRING to initial birth asking how rebirth was even possible. Jesus set him straight, but apparently not everyone understood.

No – Nicodemus was asking Jesus how a man is born AGAIN – and Jesus explained how.

It always amazes me that Protestants cannot see the first three chapters of John are literally DRENCHED in Baptismal Water - and FAIL to understand the point he was trying to make to his readers.

- In Chapter 1, we see the WATER Baptism of Jesus described. We read about the WATER and SPIRIT that were present.
- In Chapter 2, Jesus turns WATER into wine at the Wedding at Cana.
- At the beginning of Chapter 3 – Jesus explains to Nicodemus the necessity of WATER Baptism.
- Later, in Chapter 3, Jesus and His Disciples spend some time at the river BAPTIZING with WATER.

In ALL of these instances, the WATER symbolizes newness and rebirth.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Justin Martyr
“As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are REGENERATED in the same manner in which we were ourselves REGENERATED. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Tertullian
“Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).
“Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (ibid., 12).

Hey, thanks a lot for that. These two state it outright. I'm surprised by Tertullian, as I hold him in high regard in several respects, especially over his teachings on fasting and his stand on doctrines regarding the sons of God in Genesis 6:1-4. But the above statement is extremely dogmatic; more so than I would personally be comfortable with.

I'm going to have to catalog this for future studies, and try and remember to look more deeply into his full doctrine on the baptisms, especially the baptism in the Holy Spirit and if He regarded that as having precedence.

Blessings in Christ, and thank you for taking the time to post the quotes. I appreciate it.
Hidden

 

[ScottA]

No – Nicodemus was asking Jesus how a man is born AGAIN – and Jesus explained how.

It always amazes me that Protestants cannot see the first three chapters of John are literally DRENCHED in Baptismal Water - and FAIL to understand the point he was trying to make to his readers.

- In Chapter 1, we see the WATER Baptism of Jesus described. We read about the WATER and SPIRIT that were present.
- In Chapter 2, Jesus turns WATER into wine at the Wedding at Cana.
- At the beginning of Chapter 3 – Jesus explains to Nicodemus the necessity of WATER Baptism.
- Later, in Chapter 3, Jesus and His Disciples spend some time at the river BAPTIZING with WATER.

In ALL of these instances, the WATER symbolizes newness and rebirth.

Why you make this a contention of your own Protestant prejudice, only speaks of you, not the content.

As for your list, number three is incorrect. The necessity He made clear, was of being born of the Spirit...which, duh, is the whole point of the entire history of baptism.

But your last point is good because you say that water baptism is "symbolic." Which if the conversation stops there and does not go on to the understanding of just what it symbolizes, but gets hung up on water baptism and makes a law of it...making the symbolism is of no effect ("the flesh profits nothing").

So...did you want to discuss what the symbolism is actually about, or just go on and on about the technical aspects of the symbolism and who said what? Because that "profits nothing."

 

[justbyfaith]

Baptism is useful as a point of contact for faith (Acts 19:12, 1 Peter 3:20-21); if you put your faith in the operation of God (Colossians 2:12); otherwise it is just getting wet.

If there is real repentance and it is done for the remission of sins, then the Holy Ghost is absolutely promised (Acts 2:38-39 (kjv)).

However, one can obtain the Holy Ghost simply through asking, seeking, and knocking (Luke 11:9-13).

Salvation is also absolutely promised to the one who merely calls on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth (Romans 10:13; Acts 4:10-12).

 

[Ac28]

There is no verse that limits water baptism to just fleshly Israel. Acts 15:11 Peter says Jews and Gentiles are saved in a "like manner" way and that like manner way was water baptism being commanded to both Jew (Acts 2:38) and Gentile (Acts 10:47-48).

The only books in the Bible that apply directly to anyone living today are the 7 epistles written by Paul after Acts was finished - Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Philemon. Today's all-Gentile church, found ONLY in these epistles, is the only group in the entire Bible that will spend eternity in the Heavenly Places, Far Above All Heavens, where Christ now sits at the right hand of God, Ephesians 1:20 (Christ), Ephesians 2:6 (Us). No Jew was EVER given a chance of going to Heaven. Never! Search and See! In these 7 epistles, the one baptism is spirit baptism. Water Baptism is not mentioned in those 7 books. The other 59 books are 100% Israel and except for Christ, NOTHING in them is TO or ABOUT anyone living today. You will find nothing in those 59 books that will tell you anything about your Calling, Hope, or Future. Except for Christ, nothing ever given to Israel was also given to the Gentiles. Most everything given to Israel has been stolen by the know-nothing Church system, including water baptism. We are Gentiles. God ALWAYS has treated Gentiles TOTALLY DIFFERENT than He has Israel.

Was any non-proselyte Gentile water Baptized in the OT or the Gospels? NO! Was any Gentile, that wasn't a proselyte or wasn't grafted into Israel, water baptized during Acts? NO! Was any Gentile in Paul's 7 post-Acts books water baptized? NO! So, in the entire Bible, up to this point, no Gentile that wasn't part of Israel, in some way, was EVER water Baptized. So, why should any Gentile today, who is totally UNASSOCIATED with Israel, be water baptized? And, since Israel was set aside and ceased to exist, in God's eyes, in 64AD, it is impossible that any Gentile today is ASSOCIATED with Israel. Israel will be back after 2 days ( Hosea 6:2 ), 2000 years, about 2064, and once again, they will be God's people and all OT prophecy will, once again, start to be fulfilled. This present parenthetical 2000 years never really happened, as far as anything about Israel is concerned. They are a non-entity at present and the 1948 thing was a Grand Hoax.

Col 3:1-2
1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

We Gentiles are not earthly people. We are Heavenly people. Our citizenship is in Heaven, Philippians 3:20 . We were chosen in Christ, through God's foreknowledge, before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:4 . Israel are the earthly people. They will inherit the land, as in the promises, and the New Jerusalem will be the all-Israel capitol of the New Earth. Each tribe has their own signed gate that they will enter through. According to that passage above, we are to focus on things above and not to focus on things of the earth. Nothing that will ever happen on this earth, will ever have anything to do with us Heaven Dwellers, including water baptism - and the rapture. Israel can have everything in those 59, all-Israel, all-earthly books. What's offered us in Paul's post Acts books beats any of those Jewish things by a million miles.

 

[farouk]

Baptism is useful as a point of contact for faith (Acts 19:12, 1 Peter 3:20-21); if you put your faith in the operation of God (Colossians 2:12); otherwise it is just getting wet.

If there is real repentance and it is done for the remission of sins, then the Holy Ghost is absolutely promised (Acts 2:38-39 (kjv)).

However, one can obtain the Holy Ghost simply through asking, seeking, and knocking (Luke 11:9-13).

Salvation is also absolutely promised to the one who merely calls on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth (Romans 10:13; Acts 4:10-12).

Baptism indeed comes afterwards. Acts 2.41.

 

[justbyfaith]

It may come either before or after. The Holy Ghost is promised as a result of baptism if you do not have Him previous to the sacrament being fulfilled.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Why you make this a contention of your own Protestant prejudice, only speaks of you, not the content.

As for your list, number three is incorrect. The necessity He made clear, was of being born of the Spirit...which, duh, is the whole point of the entire history of baptism.

But your last point is good because you say that water baptism is "symbolic." Which if the conversation stops there and does not go on to the understanding of just what it symbolizes, but gets hung up on water baptism and makes a law of it...making the symbolism is of no effect ("the flesh profits nothing").

So...did you want to discuss what the symbolism is actually about, or just go on and on about the technical aspects of the symbolism and who said what? Because that "profits nothing."

First of all - you're taking John 6:63 completely OUT of context.

In the context of John 6:61-65, Jesus was telling the crowd not to THINK in human terms about the Eucharist - but to think on the SPIRITUAL level. They had horrific thoughts of Him insisting they eat his flesh and bones in a cannibalistic way - instead of consuming Him sacramentally.

Finally - number three couldn't be MORE correct because it is exactly what Jesus was trying to make Nicodemus understand.

 

[justbyfaith]

How does Luke 7:29-30 apply to the subject?

 

[mjrhealth]

When will people ever get it that everything changed with Jesus, just look at what happened at His death.

Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Than repeated

Act_1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

and just for clarification

Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

and even demonstrated

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Still holding onto the OLD.

Luk 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
Luk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Mixing the law and works with Grace and truth,