Baptism ?

[twinc]

That's is a rely good Question, All I know is that the Apostles were Commanded to Teach, what They were Taught, and Baptize every one that believed, and receive the Holy Spirit! As for the thief, The Master was hanging right there with the Thief. The Living Word hanging there knew the Heart of the Thief, so as to pass His Judgment concerning the Thief, So the Righteous Judge, Gave the Thief a White Stone, and Granted Him Paradise!! Also that would put an end to the Practice of Baptizing in Proxy for the Dead, How would you baptize a dead Thief??

not at all - firstly it is impossible to make sense out of non sense already accepted as sense - for starters Paradise is not heaven but a holding/transit centre - lets be very very clear that it is impossible to enter heaven unless born of water and spirit - imho there will be no Christians in hell and only Christians in heaven - it is required that like Nicodemus the thief on the cross and all other non Christians must be born again as Christians - btw I repeat that it is Tom Brown's body that lies in the grave but his soul/spirit goes marching on lest we forget - twinc

 

[Nancy]

no need for endless long articles and sermons as Jn 3:5 is clear enough as water and spirit and not water alone or spirit alone and necessary as passport to enter the kingdom - any comments - twinc

Just a thought here. Has anyone ever considered that when Nicodemus asked Jesus "how can a man re-enter the womb" that he understood Jesus as talking about being in a sac of water in the womb hence---born of flesh? Is this crazy thinking? lol.

John 3:4-8
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spiritb]' data-fn="#fen-NIV-26127b">[b] gives birth to spirit.I)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-26127I"> 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘Youc]' data-fn="#fen-NIV-26128c">[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

-nancy

 

[Nancy]

Sry bout the horrid copy/paste

 

[twinc]

Just a thought here. Has anyone ever considered that when Nicodemus asked Jesus "how can a man re-enter the womb" that he understood Jesus as talking about being in a sac of water in the womb hence---born of flesh? Is this crazy thinking? lol.

John 3:4-8
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spiritb]' data-fn="#fen-NIV-26127b">[b] gives birth to spirit.I)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-26127I"> 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘Youc]' data-fn="#fen-NIV-26128c">[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

-nancy

yes here is the problem = the correct/incorrect interpretation imho the literal and obvious meaning must always be accepted first - so here Jesus meant exactly what He said and then went on to teach Nicodemus and us that what seems impossible to humans is not impossible to God imho - twinc

 

[Truth]

not at all - firstly it is impossible to make sense out of non sense already accepted as sense - for starters Paradise is not heaven but a holding/transit centre - lets be very very clear that it is impossible to enter heaven unless born of water and spirit - imho there will be no Christians in hell and only Christians in heaven - it is required that like Nicodemus the thief on the cross and all other non Christians must be born again as Christians - btw I repeat that it is Tom Brown's body that lies in the grave but his soul/spirit goes marching on lest we forget - twinc

OK!

 

[H. Richard]

no need for endless long articles and sermons as Jn 3:5 is clear enough as water and spirit and not water alone or spirit alone and necessary as passport to enter the kingdom - any comments - twinc

***

Not as simple as you suggest. But if a person actually reads the words it does become simple but most will reject it.

Many people use John 3:1-6 to support water baptism. -- But what do these scriptures really say?

**** Scripture
John 3:1-6 .. (NIV)
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council.
2 He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
**** end scripture

No where in verse 6 do we see water baptism.

It seems to me that in verses 3 and 4 there are only two births being discussed, a man's first birth in the flesh and a necessary second birth of the Spirit. -- Notice that in verse 5 he used the words "born of water" and then "the spirit" and in verse 6, "WHICH AMPLIFIES VERSE 5," He uses the words "birth to flesh" and then "birth to spirit." Nicodemus has brought up the subject of being born in the flesh for a second time. What has been said is that physical birth is not enough. Some will disagree but I believe he is talking about our physical birth "birth to flesh" in verse 5 and that there is another birth, "birth to spirit" which is accomplished by the Holy Spirit (NOT MAN)

Since the word baptism was not included in the text, to add it is to change the meaning of the word of God to fit into the theologies of men.

It has been said by another: I think it would be trivial to tell Nicodemus that he had to be born of the water if this meant physical birth. After all, he had already gone through this birth. Why bother to tell him then? -- Why, because it was Nicodemus that brought up the idea of going back into the womb and being born again.

 

[APAK]

***

Not as simple as you suggest. But if a person actually reads the words it does become simple but most will reject it.

Many people use John 3:1-6 to support water baptism. -- But what do these scriptures really say?

**** Scripture
John 3:1-6 .. (NIV)
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council.
2 He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
**** end scripture

No where in verse 6 do we see water baptism.

It seems to me that in verses 3 and 4 there are only two births being discussed, a man's first birth in the flesh and a necessary second birth of the Spirit. -- Notice that in verse 5 he used the words "born of water" and then "the spirit" and in verse 6, "WHICH AMPLIFIES VERSE 5," He uses the words "birth to flesh" and then "birth to spirit." Nicodemus has brought up the subject of being born in the flesh for a second time. What has been said is that physical birth is not enough. Some will disagree but I believe he is talking about our physical birth "birth to flesh" in verse 5 and that there is another birth, "birth to spirit" which is accomplished by the Holy Spirit (NOT MAN)

Since the word baptism was not included in the text, to add it is to change the meaning of the word of God to fit into the theologies of men.

It has been said by another: I think it would be trivial to tell Nicodemus that he had to be born of the water if this meant physical birth. After all, he had already gone through this birth. Why bother to tell him then? -- Why, because it was Nicodemus that brought up the idea of going back into the womb and being born again.

HR
I think and know you have got it mate. Words that I would say....It's so simple if folks just read the scripture and entire CONTEXT without too much complication without trying to fit a new mysterious theory into it.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[twinc]

HR
I think and know you have got it mate. Words that I would say....It's so simple if folks just read the scripture and entire CONTEXT without too much complication without trying to fit a new mysterious theory into it.

Bless you,

APAK

it seems you are not getting it and know neither your/my Christianity or Christ, imho you are a yesterday's non Christian born again as a Christian - you have or had no say in the matter - twinc

 

[Nancy]

yes here is the problem = the correct/incorrect interpretation imho the literal and obvious meaning must always be accepted first - so here Jesus meant exactly what He said and then went on to teach Nicodemus and us that what seems impossible to humans is not impossible to God imho - twinc

Hmmm.

 

[Nancy]

***

Not as simple as you suggest. But if a person actually reads the words it does become simple but most will reject it.

Many people use John 3:1-6 to support water baptism. -- But what do these scriptures really say?

**** Scripture
John 3:1-6 .. (NIV)
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council.
2 He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
**** end scripture

Awesome post



No where in verse 6 do we see water baptism.

It seems to me that in verses 3 and 4 there are only two births being discussed, a man's first birth in the flesh and a necessary second birth of the Spirit. -- Notice that in verse 5 he used the words "born of water" and then "the spirit" and in verse 6, "WHICH AMPLIFIES VERSE 5," He uses the words "birth to flesh" and then "birth to spirit." Nicodemus has brought up the subject of being born in the flesh for a second time. What has been said is that physical birth is not enough. Some will disagree but I believe he is talking about our physical birth "birth to flesh" in verse 5 and that there is another birth, "birth to spirit" which is accomplished by the Holy Spirit (NOT MAN)

Since the word baptism was not included in the text, to add it is to change the meaning of the word of God to fit into the theologies of men.

It has been said by another: I think it would be trivial to tell Nicodemus that he had to be born of the water if this meant physical birth. After all, he had already gone through this birth. Why bother to tell him then? -- Why, because it was Nicodemus that brought up the idea of going back into the womb and being born again.

Wonderful post H. Richard...I think I will follow you
-nancy

 

[twinc]

Wonderful post H. Richard...I think I will follow you
-nancy

it seems most wrest scriptures to their destruction so whatever you do make sure you and yours are baptised with water and the Holy Spirit - twinc

 

[Nancy]

And Peter was not suggesting that the water of baptism washes away sins, or produces the New Birth, or results in the giving of the Holy Spirit. What he was teaching is that those who received the gift of the Holy Spirit must be baptized immediately. And so they were. But the fact that the gift of the Holy Spirit is given BEFORE water baptism is clear from Acts 10.

IMHO I believe water Baptism is in line with:
Romans 10:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

I now see water baptism as simply confessing your faith publicly. I grew up Catholic and, of course was baptized as an infant, I see no baptism of infants at all in Scripture. I became saved and baptized in 1993...as an adult- so I could consciously confess my belief in Christ publicly at my water Baptism. I believe that we are born of the Spirit the moment we sincerely submit our lives to Christ...then water Baptism/confessing publicly and symbolically immersing your whole self in water to show that you are now a new creature in Christ. JMHO

 

[Triumph1300]

I believe that we are born of the Spirit the moment we sincerely submit our lives to Christ

And that's not the same as being baptized in the Holy Spirit.

 

[Triumph1300]

Who can Baptize?

Anybody who's a Christian can baptize.
There's no need for a pastor, etc.

 

[Nancy]

And that's not the same as being baptized in the Holy Spirit.

I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree, lol.

 

[BreadOfLife]

***

Not as simple as you suggest. But if a person actually reads the words it does become simple but most will reject it.

Many people use John 3:1-6 to support water baptism. -- But what do these scriptures really say?

**** Scripture
John 3:1-6 .. (NIV)
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council.
2 He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
**** end scripture

No where in verse 6 do we see water baptism.

It seems to me that in verses 3 and 4 there are only two births being discussed, a man's first birth in the flesh and a necessary second birth of the Spirit. -- Notice that in verse 5 he used the words "born of water" and then "the spirit" and in verse 6, "WHICH AMPLIFIES VERSE 5," He uses the words "birth to flesh" and then "birth to spirit." Nicodemus has brought up the subject of being born in the flesh for a second time. What has been said is that physical birth is not enough. Some will disagree but I believe he is talking about our physical birth "birth to flesh" in verse 5 and that there is another birth, "birth to spirit" which is accomplished by the Holy Spirit (NOT MAN)

Since the word baptism was not included in the text, to add it is to change the meaning of the word of God to fit into the theologies of men.

It has been said by another: I think it would be trivial to tell Nicodemus that he had to be born of the water if this meant physical birth. After all, he had already gone through this birth. Why bother to tell him then? -- Why, because it was Nicodemus that brought up the idea of going back into the womb and being born again.

Actually - reading the oncversation with Nicodemus - then looking at the first 3 chapters in context - there is NO other conclusion that we can come to with John 3:5 than Water Baptism. Let's take a look at those verses again . . .

John 3:1-6 .. (NIV)
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council.
2 He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is BORN AGAIN."
4 "How can a man be born (again) when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born (again) of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

The context here is not Birth - but REBIRTH. Nicodemus was inquiring about how to be born AGAIN. and suggests that he could not re-enter his mother's womb a second time. THIS is where Jesus gives the prescription for REBIRTH - Water AND Spirit.

In Chapter 1, we see the baptism of Jesus being described. We see WATER (H2O) and we see the Holy Spirit in the form of a Dove.

In Chapter 2, we see the miracle at the Wedding at Cana where Jesus changed WATER into Wine.

In Chapter 3, we see Jesus describing Water Baptism to Nicodemus. Immediately following this conversation - WHAT do Jesus and the Apostles do??
They go down to the river and begin BAPTIZING the crowds.

The first 3 Chapters of John's Gospel are literally drenched in the waters of Baptism.

 

[twinc]

Actually - reading the oncversation with Nicodemus - then looking at the first 3 chapters in context - there is NO other conclusion that we can come to with John 3:5 than Water Baptism. Let's take a look at those verses again . . .

John 3:1-6 .. (NIV)
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council.
2 He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is BORN AGAIN."
4 "How can a man be born (again) when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born (again) of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

The context here is not Birth - but REBIRTH. Nicodemus was inquiring about how to be born AGAIN. and suggests that he could not re-enter his mother's womb a second time. THIS is where Jesus gives the prescription for REBIRTH - Water AND Spirit.

In Chapter 1, we see the baptism of Jesus being described. We see WATER (H2O) and we see the Holy Spirit in the form of a Dove.

In Chapter 2, we see the miracle at the Wedding at Cana where Jesus changed WATER into Wine.

In Chapter 3, we see Jesus describing Water Baptism to Nicodemus. Immediately following this conversation - WHAT do Jesus and the Apostles do??
They go down to the river and begin BAPTIZING the crowds.

The first 3 Chapters of John's Gospel are literally drenched in the waters of Baptism.

 

[twinc]

actually we need look no further than the baptism of Jesus to really grasp what baptism is all about for those with eyes to see and ears to hear viz water comes before spirit, heaven opens to us to enter as reconciled children of God - btw only Christ and little children truly have nothing to repent and truly believe imho - take your pick for it seems devils truly believe but refuse to repent and are not baptized - twinc

 

[Triumph1300]

Triumph1300: And that's not the same as being baptized in the Holy Spirit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Nancy: I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree, lol.

The crowd in the upper room were already Christians (born of the Spirit) when they received the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Which means that "born of the Spirit" and "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" are two different things.

 

[twinc]

The crowd in the upper room were already Christians (born of the Spirit) when they received the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Which means that "born of the Spirit" and "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" are two different things.

not so - it seems not many have really grasped what Pentecost was/is all about or that it was one off and unique imho - twinc