Baptism ?

[Marymog]

Hi Mary, pleased to be here. Before I begin, I would first like to note the irony in the fact that the only one aho has NOT joined in the bashing... is the "mean, stiff nosed" Calvinist.

Anyways, I believe that baptism by water is a VERY important sign in a believer's life. I believe that when Jesus told us to baptise the nations in His name, that this is a command we need to take as of the utmost importance. And, to answer your question, No, I would not tell Jesus that the water was not necessary. However, Jesus was a man of the Scriptures. After all, they are His words! Here is why I do believe that baptism is of utmost importance, but the water in and of itself holds no actual value.

Isaiah 1:11
To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of the goats.

God has never been satisfied with ANY MATERIAL in and of itself. Blood, Water; they are in the end just objects; things. Then, you may ask, why were they necessary? Because of what they stand for! Not, the water is not Holy in and of itself; its just water. No, the blood of goats and rams didn't really please God in and of themselves, it was just blood. But what they stand for is holy.

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

You see, the Pharisees thought that there were certain things they could do to make their way to heaven. They believed that the actions, the things in and of themselves were pleasing to God. Jesus firmly corrects them, telling them that the Scriptures, from the Sacrificial system to the giving of the manna to His people in the wilderness, every "holy" action, every "holy" item, was only holy because of who it pointed to, and in and of itself does not produce results. So, No, I would never ever tell Jesus that the water wasn't necessary. I believe he already knew.

Thank you for taking the time to read my rambles, looking forward to continuing this discussion!

Your welcome and Thank you.

I agree with you. Baptism with water is VERY important and I would not tell Jesus or anyone else the use of water was not NECESSARY.

I value what Jesus/Apostles told us to do so there must be some "value" to the use of water. Just because we don't understand it doesn't mean it doesn't have value. Just like the use of oil in healing. (James 5:14-16, Mark 6:13)

If Jesus and the Apostles practiced the use of water in their baptisms and told us to use water then I would say it is VERY IMPORTANT to do what Jesus/Apostles said and did. Wouldn't you???

We know that the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Since we know that the Son can do nothing by himself (he can do only what he sees his Father doing) then we can safely assume that the use of water in baptism is expected and condoned by the Father. (John5:19-20)

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. (John 3:5 and Titus 3:5)

Respectfully, Mary

 

[Mjh29]

Your welcome and Thank you.

I agree with you. Baptism with water is VERY important and I would not tell Jesus or anyone else the use of water was not NECESSARY.

I value what Jesus/Apostles told us to do so there must be some "value" to the use of water. Just because we don't understand it doesn't mean it doesn't have value. Just like the use of oil in healing. (James 5:14-16, Mark 6:13)

If Jesus and the Apostles practiced the use of water in their baptisms and told us to use water then I would say it is VERY IMPORTANT to do what Jesus/Apostles said and did. Wouldn't you???

We know that the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Since we know that the Son can do nothing by himself (he can do only what he sees his Father doing) then we can safely assume that the use of water in baptism is expected and condoned by the Father. (John5:19-20)

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. (John 3:5 and Titus 3:5)

Respectfully, Mary

Mary,
Firstly, I would just like to sat that it is truly pleasurable to sit down and have a civilized conversation with a fellow believer, regardless of our differences in views. Secondly, I would like to say that I agree completely with what you said. Yes, a proper baptism does require water, however, the water in and of itself has no power or holiness. That does not mean that it is not IMPORTANT, just that it does not have any power of itself.

 

[Marymog]

No, I would simply believe John in Matt 3:11.

Acts 2:38 is referring to Holy Spirit baptism, which occurred after Pentecost and the conception of the church.

Was the eunuch saved because of H2O or because he believed in the good news about Jesus?

Acts 8:34-35 The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” 35Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

God bless

Hmmmm.....If you wouldn't tell Jesus or the Apostles or the crowd gathered around Jesus when he was baptized that the use of water wasn't necessary then you must believe that water is necessary in baptism???

Mary

BTW...Matthew 3:11 has NOTHING to do with the WATER baptism that Jesus implemented. John even makes that clear when he says I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. John made it clear that the power of baptism with water would be changed by Jesus.

 

[Marymog]

Mary,
Firstly, I would just like to sat that it is truly pleasurable to sit down and have a civilized conversation with a fellow believer, regardless of our differences in views. Secondly, I would like to say that I agree completely with what you said. Yes, a proper baptism does require water, however, the water in and of itself has no power or holiness. That does not mean that it is not IMPORTANT, just that it does not have any power of itself.

I understand your belief and what you are saying. You have articulated it well and I appreciate your honesty.

But honestly, if we don't us water in baptism then are we going AGAINST the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles (scripture)??

What happens to us if we go against what scripture tells us to do??

Mary

 

[Mjh29]

I understand your belief and what you are saying. You have articulated it well and I appreciate your honesty.

But honestly, if we don't us water in baptism then are we going AGAINST the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles (scripture)??

What happens to us if we go against what scripture tells us to do??

Mary

I agree. My only point was that the water in itself has no regenerative power. That is all the Holy Spirits doing. Baptism is symbolic of the work of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life. I do agree that we should follow Christ's teachings, but none of us will ever do it perfectly. Now, if there were a place in the Scriptures where Jesus specifically said the consequences, I would tell you, however I am not aware of any such place. Not at all saying that somehow makes disobeying Christ ok, I am simply stating I have no idea the actual consequences.

 

[Heb 13:8]

This is a great question - and the answer is BOTH.

He was saved by his belief - and his obedience.
ACTING on his belief is what gave birth to his faith - NOT simply "believing."

Faith = Belief + Obedience (DOING)

Yeah, and this is a question that you're not qualified to answer.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Hmmmm.....If you wouldn't tell Jesus or the Apostles or the crowd gathered around Jesus when he was baptized that the use of water wasn't necessary then you must believe that water is necessary in baptism???

Mary

BTW...Matthew 3:11 has NOTHING to do with the WATER baptism that Jesus implemented. John even makes that clear when he says I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. John made it clear that the power of baptism with water would be changed by Jesus.

No, H2O is not necessary for Holy Spirit baptism. No, the power of the Holy Spirit is what changes you Mary, not H2O.

 

[Marymog]

I agree. My only point was that the water in itself has no regenerative power. That is all the Holy Spirits doing. Baptism is symbolic of the work of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life. I do agree that we should follow Christ's teachings, but none of us will ever do it perfectly. Now, if there were a place in the Scriptures where Jesus specifically said the consequences, I would tell you, however I am not aware of any such place. Not at all saying that somehow makes disobeying Christ ok, I am simply stating I have no idea the actual consequences.

Thank you.

I believe there is a place in scripture that Jesus suggest the consequences of NOT obeying him in Luke 6:46-49?

Why do you call me, 'LORD, LORD,' and do not do what I say? 47As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. 48They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. 49But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete."

I believe there is a promise for those who do the will of God in Matthew 7:21: Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Which kind of takes us back to John 5:19-20......the Son can do nothing by himself, he can do only what he sees his Father doing!!!

My two cents worth....Mary

 

[Marymog]

No, H2O is not necessary for Holy Spirit baptism. No, the power of the Holy Spirit is what changes you Mary, not H2O.

I apologize.

You would be comfortable telling Jesus/Apostles that H20 is not necessary and announcing to the crowds to ignore Jesus/Apostles actions/words.

I misunderstood you

Mary

 

[Heb 13:8]

I apologize.

You would be comfortable telling Jesus/Apostles that H20 is not necessary and announcing to the crowds to ignore Jesus/Apostles actions/words.

I misunderstood you

Mary

You're twisting scripture into making it sound like you need H2O to be saved.

It sounds like you're on the wrong path entering through the gate by H2O.

Matt 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Jhn 10:1-10 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” 6Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them. 7Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.a They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

God bless.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Is Baptism Necessary For Salvation

Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation – The Meaning
People around the world ask this question: Is baptism necessary for salvation? The word "baptism" is a transliteration of the Greek word "baptisma" and this word is from a primary Greek verb "bapto," which is also the root of the word baptize. The word means to dip, to dye or to change the identification of. When a piece of white cloth was "bapto" into a vat of blue dye, it no longer was white cloth because its identification was changed to blue cloth. That is the root of the meaning of the word.

The rite of baptism was a ritual in the Jewish culture from the beginning. Ceremonial washing of priests and the dipping temple utensils into water was part of the law. For instance, a priest was "baptized" into his office as a priest and it was to dedicate and identify the priest in his position. This baptism set apart the priest to take part in the temple worship and sacrifices. The baptism of the utensils set them apart for a specific use in worship. When John the Baptist came on the scene, Jews came to him to be baptized for the confession of their sins. This was not for salvation because the LORD Jesus Christ had not yet paid the price for sin. The baptism of John the Baptist was an Old Testament economy baptism and it only signified the participant's willingness to confess his sin and therefore, John the Baptist's baptism was for repentance (Acts 19:4).

Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation – The Biblical Evidence
It is interesting to note that Jesus did not baptize. "The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but His disciples" (John 4:1-2). If water baptism were necessary for salvation, wouldn't Jesus have baptized? Jesus presented Himself to the Jews as their Messiah with signs and Messianic miracles, but He did not baptize them.

The Apostle Paul only baptized a few. "Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel -- not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power" (1 Corinthians 1:13-17).

Those who teach that baptism is necessary for salvation overlook this statement of Paul's. If water baptism were necessary for salvation would not the Apostle Paul have made water baptism a central theme of his ministry? Rather, the Apostle Paul taught the "baptism of the Holy Spirit," which occurs when one is born again and it is a spiritual identification as the believer is placed IN Christ. "For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body -- whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free" (1 Corinthians 12:13). The Holy Spirit baptizes us or identifies us as a child of God and then seals us and sets us apart to the "day of redemption" or the day when our redemption will be completed and we see Him "face to face." "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption" (Ephesians 4:30).

Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation – The Conclusion
Is baptism necessary for salvation? If the question is concerning water baptism, the answer is no. We are not saved by ritual or works but by "grace through faith." "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore, water baptism does not save us. However, the baptism of the Spirit is necessary for salvation and that has nothing whatever to do with water and it is not something we do for ourselves, it is God's gift to us at the moment we are born again.

If water baptism were not necessary for salvation, why then would someone be baptized? Baptism is an outward action based on an inward reality. Baptism is a testimony that the participant has trusted in Christ as Savior and they are identifying himself/herself by submitting themselves to baptism. We cannot rest our hope of salvation on something that we can do for ourselves, rather we must recognize our need of a Savior and accept the LORD Jesus Christ's finished work for our redemption. That finished work is that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and three days later rose from the dead. Then, if we chose to be baptized, it is an act of testimony to others of the reality of our personal identification with Christ.

https://www.allaboutgod.com/is-baptism-necessary-for-salvation.htm

 

[Helen]

Excellent post @Heb 13:8


~ .~ .

 

[Philip James]

Is Baptism Necessary For Salvation

Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation – The Meaning
People around the world ask this question: Is baptism necessary for salvation? The word "baptism" is a transliteration of the Greek word "baptisma" and this word is from a primary Greek verb "bapto," which is also the root of the word baptize. The word means to dip, to dye or to change the identification of. When a piece of white cloth was "bapto" into a vat of blue dye, it no longer was white cloth because its identification was changed to blue cloth. That is the root of the meaning of the word.

The rite of baptism was a ritual in the Jewish culture from the beginning. Ceremonial washing of priests and the dipping temple utensils into water was part of the law. For instance, a priest was "baptized" into his office as a priest and it was to dedicate and identify the priest in his position. This baptism set apart the priest to take part in the temple worship and sacrifices. The baptism of the utensils set them apart for a specific use in worship. When John the Baptist came on the scene, Jews came to him to be baptized for the confession of their sins. This was not for salvation because the LORD Jesus Christ had not yet paid the price for sin. The baptism of John the Baptist was an Old Testament economy baptism and it only signified the participant's willingness to confess his sin and therefore, John the Baptist's baptism was for repentance (Acts 19:4).

Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation – The Biblical Evidence
It is interesting to note that Jesus did not baptize. "The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but His disciples" (John 4:1-2). If water baptism were necessary for salvation, wouldn't Jesus have baptized? Jesus presented Himself to the Jews as their Messiah with signs and Messianic miracles, but He did not baptize them.

The Apostle Paul only baptized a few. "Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel -- not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power" (1 Corinthians 1:13-17).

Those who teach that baptism is necessary for salvation overlook this statement of Paul's. If water baptism were necessary for salvation would not the Apostle Paul have made water baptism a central theme of his ministry? Rather, the Apostle Paul taught the "baptism of the Holy Spirit," which occurs when one is born again and it is a spiritual identification as the believer is placed IN Christ. "For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body -- whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free" (1 Corinthians 12:13). The Holy Spirit baptizes us or identifies us as a child of God and then seals us and sets us apart to the "day of redemption" or the day when our redemption will be completed and we see Him "face to face." "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption" (Ephesians 4:30).

Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation – The Conclusion
Is baptism necessary for salvation? If the question is concerning water baptism, the answer is no. We are not saved by ritual or works but by "grace through faith." "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore, water baptism does not save us. However, the baptism of the Spirit is necessary for salvation and that has nothing whatever to do with water and it is not something we do for ourselves, it is God's gift to us at the moment we are born again.

If water baptism were not necessary for salvation, why then would someone be baptized? Baptism is an outward action based on an inward reality. Baptism is a testimony that the participant has trusted in Christ as Savior and they are identifying himself/herself by submitting themselves to baptism. We cannot rest our hope of salvation on something that we can do for ourselves, rather we must recognize our need of a Savior and accept the LORD Jesus Christ's finished work for our redemption. That finished work is that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and three days later rose from the dead. Then, if we chose to be baptized, it is an act of testimony to others of the reality of our personal identification with Christ.

https://www.allaboutgod.com/is-baptism-necessary-for-salvation.htm

Baptism in water is also the way of initiation into the community of the apostles.. This is why Peter said we cant refuse the water to Cornelius and his household...

Peace!

 

[Heb 13:8]

Baptism in water is also the way of initiation into the community of the apostles.. This is why Peter said we cant refuse the water to Cornelius and his household...

In 2018 however, believers are baptized in water because...

"Baptism is an outward action based on an inward reality. Baptism is a testimony that the participant has trusted in Christ as Savior and they are identifying himself/herself by submitting themselves to baptism."

"Then, if we chose to be baptized, it is an act of testimony to others of the reality of our personal identification with Christ."

https://www.allaboutgod.com/is-baptism-necessary-for-salvation.htm

 

[Philip James]

In 2018 however, believers are baptized in water because...

Because they want to be buried with Christ and rise to new life in Him.

Nothing new there...

 

[Marymog]

You're twisting scripture into making it sound like you need H2O to be saved.

It sounds like you're on the wrong path entering through the gate by H2O.

Matt 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Jhn 10:1-10 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” 6Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them. 7Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.a They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

God bless.

Thank you.

Neither of those passages has to do with baptism.

I wouldn't be comfortable telling Jesus/Apostles that H20 is not necessary and announcing to the crowds to ignore Jesus/Apostles actions/words.

You would. Enough said.

Mary

 

[Heb 13:8]

Thank you.

Neither of those passages has to do with baptism.

I wouldn't be comfortable telling Jesus/Apostles that H20 is not necessary and announcing to the crowds to ignore Jesus/Apostles actions/words.

You would. Enough said.

Mary

Well, lucky for me it's 2018, post 231.

Hos 4:6 my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. "Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children.

 

[Marymog]

Well, lucky for me it's 2018, post 231.

Hos 4:6 my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. "Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children.

Hmmmm.....if it were the year 50 AD you wouldn't be lucky in your belief? (I think that's what you are saying)

Mary

 

[Marymog]

You're twisting scripture into making it sound like you need H2O to be saved.

It sounds like you're on the wrong path entering through the gate by H2O.

Matt 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Jhn 10:1-10 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” 6Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them. 7Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.a They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

God bless.

I didn't twist anything....I quoted scripture about baptism AND scripture about doing what Jesus tells us to do AND what would happen to us if we didn't do it. You keep quoting scripture that has NOTHING to do with baptism and obeying Jesus. Sooo who is twisting scripture???

The Apostles obeyed him and used H20. The earliest writings from ancient Christianity (the Didache/50AD) shows that the early Christians obeyed him and used H20.

Why is it that you believe in 2018 we no longer need to obey Christ and the teachings of the Apostles??

What has changed over the last 1,960 years that we can not DISOBEY them?

Curious Mary

 

[Heb 13:8]

Hmmmm.....if it were the year 50 AD you wouldn't be lucky in your belief? (I think that's what you are saying)

Hey, if you wanna follow Jewish traditions and rituals nobody is stopping you Mary. Just make sure you have belief in your heart. God bless.