Bashing Protestants/Bashing Catholics

[Dodo_David]

One reason why I like this website is because its founders treat Christians of all ecclesiastical systems equally.
Indeed, the site's Protestant founders say the following in their statement of faith:

We affirm that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are Christian, although there may be differences of opinion, doctrine, and tradition.

It saddens me to see people on this site using the forums to post attacks on either Protestants in general or Roman Catholics in general.

You don't have to agree with or endorse a particular ecclesiastical system in order to have a civilized dialogue with members of that ecclesiastical system.

I consider it futile to dwell on the differences between Protestants and Roman Catholics, because doing so edifies nobody. Instead, the opposite takes place. As Proverbs 15:1 says, "A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."

 

[aspen]

similarities are good to focus on.

 

[Selene]

Disagreeing on a topic is not a problem, but there are some who are not discussing the topic....but simply attacking and putting down the denomination. By bringing in the denomination (whether it be Protestant or RCC), they already get off the topic. In other words, the moment they mention RCC or any other denomination, then they are there only to attack rather than to discuss the topic.

 

[Rex]

There are distinct differences between Protestants and Catholics right down to how one is saved
Now If the admin of this site wants to believe there the same or that there going to hug and make up that's his choice

And it's impossible to address the catholic doctrine spreed by the few that frequent this site without pointing out where they get it from.
What I believe Catholics do here is try to blend in with protestants as though there is no great distinction between the two. Quoting the catechism and exposing the roots of there beliefs appears to be a great discomfort to them and is now refereed to as bashing.

If you don't want to face up to what you signed onto when you joined the church, I suggest to leave it. Other wise quit whining about people posting about it and calling it bashing.

The same goes for any denomination that anyone wants to lock steps with.
That's the way religion works, it's a divider

 

[Selene]

There are distinct differences between Protestants and Catholics right down to how one is saved
Now If the admin of this site wants to believe there the same or that there going to hug and make up that's his choice

And it's impossible to address the catholic doctrine spreed by the few that frequent this site without pointing out where they get it from.
What I believe Catholics do here is try to blend in with protestants as though there is no great distinction between the two. Quoting the catechism and exposing the roots of there beliefs appears to be a great discomfort to them and is now refereed to as bashing.

If you don't want to face up to what you signed onto when you joined the church, I suggest to leave it. Other wise quit whining about people posting about it and calling it bashing.

This is exactly what I mean. I rest my case.

 

[Rex]

The Roman Catholic Church doesn't recognize any salvation other than imperfect outside of it's membership, why should protestants be expected to be any different

And who started the division? and refuses to accept people as be fully saved outside of membership

see 811 in your catechism ----->>>> your the divider

 

[Selene]

The Roman Catholic Church doesn't recognize any salvation other than imperfect outside of it's membership, why should protestants be expected to be any different

And who started the division? and refuses to accept people as be fully saved outside of membership

see 811 in your catechism ----->>>> your the divider

There is nothing in our Catechism saying that Protestants are not saved, Rex. As a matter of fact, even Catholics don't claim that they are saved. Only certain Protestants claimed that they are saved. A Catholic, on the other hand, believes that we are in the process of being saved.

 

[aspen]

I like your website, David.

 

[Selene]

That is a nice and touching website. I didn't even notice it until I read Aspen's post.

 

[Rex]

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324

I don't ever remember being put into an imperfect communion with the RCC but that's the way she sees me.
You being a member have that perfect communion with the one and only perfect church

811 "This is the sole Church of Christ, which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic."256 These four characteristics, inseparably linked with each other,257 indicate essential features of the Church and her mission. The Church does not possess them of herself; it is Christ who, through the Holy Spirit, makes his Church one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, and it is he who calls her to realize each of these qualities.

You just can't stop yourselves from denying your own teachings can you.
I'll tell you what you go to catholic answers forum and tell them what you say here and see what they say. You'd be ripped by your own church members for saying or believing such things.

There is nothing in our Catechism saying that Protestants are not saved, Rex. As a matter of fact, even Catholics don't claim that they are saved. Only certain Protestants claimed that they are saved. A Catholic, on the other hand, believes that we are in the process of being saved.

Just say hi I'm catholic and post your last post here and send the link

 

[Selene]

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324

I don't ever remember being put into an imperfect communion with the RCC but that's the way she sees me.
You being a member have that perfect communion with the one and only perfect church

811 "This is the sole Church of Christ, which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic."256 These four characteristics, inseparably linked with each other,257 indicate essential features of the Church and her mission. The Church does not possess them of herself; it is Christ who, through the Holy Spirit, makes his Church one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, and it is he who calls her to realize each of these qualities.

You just can't stop yourselves from denying your own teachings can you.
I'll tell you what you go to catholic answers forum and tell them what you say here and see what they say. You'd be ripped by your own church members for saying or believing such things.

Oh....you seem to take offense that you are not "in perfect communion with the Catholic Church?" Would you prefer if we say that YOU are "in perfect communion with the Catholic Church"? Do you even know what "in perfect communion" means?? It means that you are a Roman Catholic. Are you a Roman Catholic??

And why do you take offense at being placed "in imperfect communion with the Catholic Church?" You've said so many bad things about the Catholic Church.......and now suddenly you're complaining of being in "imperfect communion with her?" What exactly do you want? Do you want to be "in perfect communion with the Catholic Church" or in "imperfect communion with the Catholic Church?"

You made this statement below:

I don't ever remember being put into an imperfect communion with the RCC but that's the way she sees me.
You being a member have that perfect communion with the one and only perfect church

So, what is it that truly ails you on the inside?? Is it that you are placed in imperfect communion with the RCC......a Church that you admit in your quote above as being the "one and only perfect Church?" Being placed in "imperfect communion with the RCC" does not mean that you are not saved. It simply means that we recognize you as part of the mystical body of Christ despite that you are not in communion with the RCC.

 

[Rex]

824 United with Christ, the Church is sanctified by him; through him and with him she becomes sanctifying. "All the activities of the Church are directed, as toward their end, to the sanctification of men in Christ and the glorification of God."292 It is in the Church that "the fullness of the means of salvation"293 has been deposited. It is in her that "by the grace of God we acquire holiness."294

 

[Selene]

824 United with Christ, the Church is sanctified by him; through him and with him she becomes sanctifying. "All the activities of the Church are directed, as toward their end, to the sanctification of men in Christ and the glorification of God."292 It is in the Church that "the fullness of the means of salvation"293 has been deposited. It is in her that "by the grace of God we acquire holiness."294

Yes, and CCC 838 stated the RCC joins herself with other Christians who are in "imperfect communion with her." So, if you are joined with us despite that the communion is imperfect, what does that tell you??.

 

[Rex]

You tell me Selene, I'm the one that had to drag the truth out of you in the first place.

 

[Rach1370]

824 United with Christ, the Church is sanctified by him; through him and with him she becomes sanctifying. "All the activities of the Church are directed, as toward their end, to the sanctification of men in Christ and the glorification of God."292 It is in the Church that "the fullness of the means of salvation"293 has been deposited. It is in her that "by the grace of God we acquire holiness."294

Rex. Clearly this is a topic that you feel strongly about. And while I do feel discomfort, for my own part, in the somewhat aggressive nature of your posts, clearly you are trying to address particular points of doctrine within the RCC, rather than just attack the RCC itself, which I appreciate.

You must understand, as far as the admin team goes...we cannot condone actions just because they may come from what many would believe as correct doctrine; especially if they all but ultimately show a disregard for that exact doctrine. As a Christian people we cannot raise our hands and claim to have the correct interpretation of scripture, only to behave in a manner that shows little or no respect towards that very scripture. What many here are trying to point out, is that lying underneath correct or mistaken doctrine will always be the beliefs and revelations of the heart. Behave in a manner that contradicts scripture, and it really matters little of what interpretation is touted.

I have always been confused and disturbed by the apparent need to crush and sneer at the Catholic Church. I most certainly don't agree with all their beliefs, but as they claim Jesus as Lord and Saviour (and here I do mean that they claim Jesus to be the Son of God, both man and God, etc...all the essential elements that we would say is needed to be a bible believing Christian), then I cannot believe that we are called to anything other than a loving dialogue with them over these differences. Consider: in any apologetics do we behave as we often do towards the RCC? Not really...we step forward with the belief that these other people are creations of God, loved by Him, and need discussion and understanding before any truth can be seen and acted on.

In regards to the CCC above, and the others posted....I wonder. If we read them in the light that when they say "Church" or "Catholic Church"...they are indeed talking of only the RCC...then yes...they become biblically problematic. And sadly, I think many Catholics may read them thus. But I wonder if they were written that way, or intended to be taken that way? If we consider it in the light that all Christians are part of Christ's "Church"...as the bible tells us...and that another word for the world wide Church is "Catholic"...then it becomes more harmonious and biblically correct.

The problem comes when we put people and their interpretations into the mix. Which is why, I believe, it is so important to at first dismiss 'denominations' and just ask a person "who is Jesus to you?". If a person's heart is truly for and after Christ, then walking through those differences and perhaps steering one towards basic biblical truth, becomes less fraught with argument, insult, and un-Christian like behaviour.

 

[Selene]

You tell me Selene, I'm the one that had to drag the truth out of you in the first place.

It means that you belong to the entire mystical body of Christ along with us. If you look at the Heading listed under CCC 838, it says "Who Belongs To the Catholic Church?" So, if you read CCC 836 -838, it answers that question. The Heading says: Who belongs to the Catholic Church? It answered the question with: The Catholic faithful, OTHERS who believe in Christ, and all mankind called by God's grace to salvation. However, if you don't believe me, that is not my problem.

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."320

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"321

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324

 

[HammerStone]

Rex, the imperfect communion clause is not quite what you think. They're simply verbalizing the same sentiments we have, as Protestants, about them. We are not in perfect agreement about doctrine. That's all the statement is in that catechism. Yes, I know of several Catholics who do maintain we are an imperfect church, but I see you also saying very similar things about them. It's not ideal, but it's okay we say different things.

There are a number of ways that I could have written this statement:

We affirm that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are Christian, although there may be differences of opinion, doctrine, and tradition.

At the end of the day I went this route.

 

[rockytopva]

The Catholic church mothered the Christian church for the period of about 1,000 years.In which there might be, when it is all said and done, probably due to the geography and time span, more Catholics in heaven than in any other sect.

1. Ephesus – Apostolic – Leaving the first love… “All they which are in Asia be turned away from me…” – II Timothy 1:15
2. Smyrna – Martyrs – Persecutions ten days… Foxes Book of Martyrs describes ten Roman persecutions.
3. Pergamos – Orthodox – A pyrgos is a fortified structure – Needed for the dark ages.
4. Thyatira – Catholic – The Spirit of Jezebel is to persecute, control, and to dominate. This spirit can invade any church!
5. Sardis – Protestant – A sardius is a gem, elegant yet hard and rigid. Doctrine in the head, little in the heart.
6. Philadelphia – Methodist – To obtain sanctification was to do so with love.
7. Laodicea – Charismatic – Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

Well... Taming the old spirit of Jezebel cost a lot of lives and suffering.... In which I think the Protestant Reformation as a good thing. I would say that the old woman Jezebel, like the Pope in Bunyan's Pilgrims Progress, has lost most of her power. But... We all have our issues, and the Catholic church is part of the church of Jesus Christ.

Photo from the Pilgrims Progress in which we have three Spirit of Jezebels... Pope, Pagan, and an Imam. Not that the establishment was bad... It is just the spirit that tries to dominate and to control things.

 

[Rex]

It means that you belong to the entire mystical body of Christ along with us. If you look at the Heading listed under CCC 838, it says "Who Belongs To the Catholic Church?" So, if you read CCC 836 -838, it answers that question. The Heading says: Who belongs to the Catholic Church? It answered the question with: The Catholic faithful, OTHERS who believe in Christ, and all mankind called by God's grace to salvation. However, if you don't believe me, that is not my problem.

Regardless of what you believe I can clearly read, and If the church is truly based on Christ why do I read this.
The church is Mary, and the high office is Peter, in all of this just where is the foundation laid, I don't see Jesus name anywhere do you?

Mary is the church

829 "But while in the most Blessed Virgin the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she exists without spot or wrinkle, the faithful still strive to conquer sin and increase in holiness. And so they turn their eyes to Mary":306 in her, the Church is already the "all-holy."

and Peter is the pope

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324

Rex, the imperfect communion clause is not quite what you think. They're simply verbalizing the same sentiments we have, as Protestants, about them. We are not in perfect agreement about doctrine. That's all the statement is in that catechism. Yes, I know of several Catholics who do maintain we are an imperfect church, but I see you also saying very similar things about them. It's not ideal, but it's okay we say different things.

There are a number of ways that I could have written this statement:

We affirm that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are Christian, although there may be differences of opinion, doctrine, and tradition.

At the end of the day I went this route.

No one has disputed the fact that catholic members aren't perfect, the matter concerns the office of the church, it's doctrine and rituals are considered perfect.

At the end of the day people see and understand what they choose to
that's why it's important to post both scripture and dogma, let the reader decide, or compare what is said with what is written.

I'm certainly not going to follow anyone that comes to me in the name of Peter, or become a member of Marys church, in her, the Church is already the "all-holy.

Selene got offended when I disagreed with her on the Ark being the church, by her understanding. It represents God in both the flood and the Temple, working salvation not a church. God gave Noah the means of salvation from the flood "ark" by being faithful, The Ark in the temple is representative of God dwelling among the people, it's not a church. But it easy to understand her opinion when you read the catechism they teach the RCC is the ark and Mary, see 829

When I make my case I'm bashing catholics? when I'm disagreeing with her statement which is rotted in her faith. So I don't see the solution to the problem unless were going make disagreeing with catholics a violation of forum rules.

Aspen he was simply on a protestant rant and I posted after his comments.
I already had the catechism open replying to Selene when he went on his little protestant rant.

What an astonishing mystery! There is one Father of the universe, one Logos of the universe, and also one Holy Spirit, everywhere one and the same; there is also one virgin become mother, and I should like to call her "Church."262

So tell me where is the body of Christ in this reading of the catechism

 

[aspen]

you brought up my name rex so i am going to comment. i believe all Trinitarian, Bible believing people, who have a relationship with Christ are part of His Body. you are the person that is constantly trying to exclude Catholics from the Body through a distortion of the Catechism, despite correction by Selene, me, Hammerstone, and Rach. You have a history of following me across the board and trying to discredit my posts by bringing up denominational differences, which end up derailing the thread. all of this aside, the tone of your posts drip with contempt and righteous indignation - your self proclaimed mission is to root out the rotten Catholics maqurading as Christians. not only are you tilting at windmills, your friut is hatred, not love. There are difference within Catholic and Protestant doctrine and both sides believe they are right - unfortunately you are making the differences much bigger than they realing are through all means possible - stop it.