Before the flood is actually "after"

[rebuilder 454]

The scripture which says: when all is peaceful, all secure; 1 Thess 5:2-3, tells us that next to come is sudden destruction of the Lords enemies.
Then; 1 Thess 5:4-10, says: we Christians must keep awake and sober, trusting in the Lord for His protection.
There is no hint of us being taken to heaven. There or anywhere in the Bible.

We must encourage one another; to keep ourselves armed will our faith and our hope for Salvation, as we endure until the end.
You know it is our appointed lot to stand firm thru all the hardships to come. 1 Thess 3:3-4

Peacetime is before the trib.
I also am pretrib rapture adherent.

 

[rebuilder 454]

That's right. All the Bible's tribulation verses are referring to the tribulation of saints that is going on now, and has been going on since the death and resurrection of Christ, and will intensify when the beast makes war against the saints and overcomes them.

Glad you admit that.

Now either supply the tribulation verses that are referring to the wrath of God that is to come upon the unbelieving world at Armageddon, or stop using unbiblical terminology calling the wrath of God "the Tribulation".

Once you finally do that you will find that everyone will agree when you talk about a pre-wrath rapture.

Tell it to Jesus

HE said " GREAT TRIBULATION such as the world has never seen or ever will"
So stop trying to form doctrine over the definition of a word.
Mat 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Omission is not your friend.

 

[rebuilder 454]

John 17
6 "I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave to Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have kept [τηρησω tēréō: guarded from loss or injury by keeping their eye upon and preserving] Your word."

11-15: "And now I am in the world no longer, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep [tēréō] them in Your name, those whom You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are.
While I was with them in the world, I kept [tēréō] them in Your name. Those that You have given Me I have kept [tēréō], and none of them is lost, except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
And now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world that they might have My joy fulfilled in them.
I have given them Your Word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

I do not pray for You to take them out of the world, but for You to keep [tēréō] them from the evil."

Revelation 3:10: "Because you have kept [tēréō] the friend.you just postedMy patience, I also will keep [tēréō] you from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the world, to try those who dwell upon the earth."

During the hour of temptation that is going to come upon all the world to test them that dwell upon the earth (Revelation 3:7-13), the harlot, Babylon the Great will be destroyed in one hour (Revelation 18:10, 17, 19) by ten kings, who will be reigning for one hour with the beast (Revelation 17:12-13), who will be given authority to continue for 42 months (Revelation 13:5), and will make war against the saints and overcome them (Revelation 13:7).

You just posted Revelation 13:7 where it says the Antichrist overcomes the Saints.
that is during the tribulation period.
And the Bible also says they overcame him ,the Antichrist, by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony and they love not their lives unto death.
So we see that the Antichrist kills all the saints during the tribulation period.
it says he's given power over them and he overcomes them .
he kills them.
we see the great multitude no man can number before the throne during the tribulation and it says that they came out of the tribulation ,meaning that they were beheaded.
no man can number the Saints that were slaughtered by the Antichrist during the tribulation.
So you unknowingly have made a case for a pre-tribulation rapture because all that refuse the Mark die during the tribulation.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Judgement had already been decided. There were no more folks to come into the Ark after Noah and his family entered.
Likewise, the Lord had decided to destroy the inhabitants of the cities of the plain, before fire and brimstone came.

I posted that Jesus's use of the lot analogy AUTHENTICATED Jesus's pre judgement analogy with Noah.
Your reply was simply God destroyed the wicked.
I have yet to see any postribber honestly acknowledge the components of Jesus's analogy.
Not a one seems to be able to address the components.WITH NO RED FLAGS!!!!!#
Glad I am not of that doctrine.

 

[rebuilder 454]

...and once you see that the 4 horsemen kick off the great tribulation, your doctrine built on the definition of a word will be corrected., as you do not understand the purpose of the great tribulation
The 4 horsemen are judgement on the earth released BY HEAVEN.
All your trib verses are going on now and are applied now.
Nobody denies trib. It is a fact. But you have misplaced that dynamic.

ALL pretrib rapture verses are peacetime, commerce, buying and selling , marrying and giving in marriage...normal life.
The setting you need is no commerce, unless you have the mark, Christians being slaughtered by the AC, no peace for christians etc.
All pretrib rapture verses are opposite your model.
Rev 3
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Temptation in Greek is
G3986 πειρασμός - Strong's Greek Lexicon

(a) trial, probation, testing, being tried, (b) temptation, (c) calamity, affliction.

You have built your doctrine on a hope you have some superior definition of the word "tribulation" and that God never intervenes.

You left one out.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...8QFnoECC4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1mrIT_-enGXqQF8jzU5kTU
hebrews 12:6-11 KJV
... For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with ..
You are trying to prove, through verses we all agree with , and know that ,we do indeed suffer through trials, but erroneously insist that God never averts or stops any of it.

Only the pretrib doctrine brings the bride/ groom dynamic to the table.
The greatest event about to happen is the Gathering of the Bride by the groom.
that is the heartbeat of Heaven, and I am amazed at those that try to understand eschatology and yet leave out the heartbeat of Heaven.
Once you get heavens perspective, your eyes will be opened.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[rebuilder 454]

You are prohibited from reinterpreting any part of the Bible to fit a made-up narrative, though...


Everyone is successful in his own mind...


Both do that to some extent, but the latter far more.

Grace and peace to you.

ALL YOUR SENTENCES are directed at me.
Not the subject.
You are unable to honestly address the subject.
At this point you are just disrespecting and trolling.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Well I wouldn't call that your "job," but yes, if you're going to "report on the Bible," it's a good idea to report facts.


Nah, just your take/thoughts about them. Many of them, anyway; others would probably warrant more... colorful... adjectives.


Thank you.

Oh, yeah, you don't like emoticons... Oh well. Truth be told, I don't really "like them," per se, either, but they are useful from time to time in conveying non-verbal language often lacking in these forums.

Grace and peace to you.

It is lacking thankfully.
But very verbal.
You are unique in that most people I encounter are not so cunningly taking shots at those that challenge their theories ,then ascribing "grace and peace" to their little games.
I am not ,in any way ,here to play your little games.

 

[Zao is life]

Tell it to Jesus

HE said " GREAT TRIBULATION such as the world has never seen or ever will"
So stop trying to form doctrine over the definition of a word.
Mat 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Omission is not your friend.

.. and you omit that He was referring to the tribulation of the saints:

Revelation 7:9-10, 13-15
9 After these things I looked, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands.
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb.

And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come?

And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation [mégas thlîpsis] and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them.

They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Revelation 2:21
"Behold, I will cast her (Jezebel) into a bed, and them (those Christians) that commit adultery with her into mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), except they repent of their deeds."

You also omit that He said that for the elect's sake, the days will be shortened, and you also omit that He concluded what He was saying with this:

"And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31).

You omit a lot in order to pretend that tribulation and the three times in the New Testament that tribulation is described as GREAT tribulation is referring to the wrath/judgment of God that is to come upon the unbelieving world.

Omission is not your friend.

 

[Zao is life]

You just posted Revelation 13:7 where it says the Antichrist overcomes the Saints.
that is during the tribulation period.
And the Bible also says they overcame him ,the Antichrist, by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony and they love not their lives unto death.
So we see that the Antichrist kills all the saints during the tribulation period.
it says he's given power over them and he overcomes them .
he kills them.
we see the great multitude no man can number before the throne during the tribulation and it says that they came out of the tribulation ,meaning that they were beheaded.
no man can number the Saints that were slaughtered by the Antichrist during the tribulation.
So you unknowingly have made a case for a pre-tribulation rapture because all that refuse the Mark die during the tribulation.

So you unknowingly have succeeded in contradicting yourself and torpedoing your own case by quoting scripture that refers to what comes upon the saints as tribulation and the tribulation. How can the saints be raptured before the tribulation when the tribulation is referring to their tribulation?

Now give us the New Testament verses that call the wrath/judgment of God coming upon the unbelieving world "tribulation" or "the tribulation" or "the great tribulation".

 

[PinSeeker]

ALL YOUR SENTENCES are directed at me.

No, but just to address this specifically, I think you taking everything personally is... well, I just think anyone should refrain from doing that for multiple reasons.

You are unable to honestly address the subject.

Ahh, classic. If you can't "win," just accuse the other guy of dishonesty, sure. <eyroll>

At this point you are just disrespecting and trolling.

No, I have never done any such thing. Judging from your posts and reactions, you seem to take yourself way, way too seriously, Rebuilder.

You are unique in that most people I encounter are not so cunningly taking shots at those that challenge their theories ,then ascribing "grace and peace" to their little games. I am not ,in any way ,here to play your little games

This is an interesting comment. Okay:

1.) Everyone is unique; God made us that way... But thank you.
2.) I don't "take shots" ~ "cunningly" or in any other manner ~ at anyone. All I have done in this exchange, Rebuilder, is point out inconsistencies, conflicts, and fallacies in your own "theories" (namely that there is any "pretrib implication" in Moses's narratives concerning Noah and Lot and Jesus's comments in Matthew's and Luke's gospels regarding the same. Obviously, you don't like that, but it's not about you, Rebuilder. It's not. It's about your opinions, but it's not about you. Thus, my comments above about you're taking everything personally. I have not taken any "shots" at you or anyone else here or in other threads.
3.) I never "play games." I confess that I have had a little fun at your expense... . Again, your definition of "game playing" seems to be disagreement with anything you say.

Grace and peace to you. Ohhhh yeah, you don't like that... Well, I can't help that, so I can't be concerned about that. Grace and peace to you anyway.

 

[PinSeeker]

How can the saints be raptured before the tribulation when the tribulation is referring to their tribulation?

Such a good question. Rhetorical in nature... I get it; but great question.

Grace and peace to you ZIL.

 

[rebuilder 454]

So you unknowingly have succeeded in contradicting yourself and torpedoing your own case by quoting scripture that refers to what comes upon the saints as tribulation and the tribulation. How can the saints be raptured before the tribulation when the tribulation is referring to their tribulation?

Now give us the New Testament verses that call the wrath/judgment of God coming upon the unbelieving world "tribulation" or "the tribulation" or "the great tribulation".

Nope

Jesus said half the church is left behind to deal with the AC.
He used 50% left behind twice

So The AC killing all refusing the mark leaves zero to rapture whether you are post trib or "post wrath"

 

[Zao is life]

Nope

Jesus said half the church is left behind to deal with the AC.
He used 50% left behind twice

So The AC killing all refusing the mark leaves zero to rapture whether you are post trib or "post wrath"

Nope. You need to first read, then quote scripture instead of only stating your own false interpretations of scriptures that you don't even quote, so that we can point out to you using scripture why your own private interpretation is wrong.

The multitude that had come out from great tribulation (Revelation 7:14) had been in and gone through the great tribulation that they came out from. That's why their robes had been washed and whitened in that trial. It was not the wrath/judgment of God that the unbelieving world will face when the wrath/judgment of God is poured out upon it.

"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see." Revelation 3:18.​

 

[rebuilder 454]

.. and you omit that He was referring to the tribulation of the saints:

Revelation 7:9-10, 13-15
9 After these things I looked, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands.
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb.

And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come?

And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation [mégas thlîpsis] and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them.

They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Revelation 2:21
"Behold, I will cast her (Jezebel) into a bed, and them (those Christians) that commit adultery with her into mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), except they repent of their deeds."

You also omit that He said that for the elect's sake, the days will be shortened, and you also omit that He concluded what He was saying with this:

"And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31).

You omit a lot in order to pretend that tribulation and the three times in the New Testament that tribulation is described as GREAT tribulation is referring to the wrath/judgment of God that is to come upon the unbelieving world.

Omission is not your friend.

You just posted that after the trib ( where you agree that the AC has killed all refusing the mark) that angels gather from heaven...so you are way off.
In the pretrib rapture Jesus gathers.
Psssst...you will never see me omit verses.
All the ones you think are omitted are addressed by me. Accurately.
What postrib teachers have done is BLATANTLY OMIT the pretrib rapture verses.
Mat24 :38
Rev 14:14
Someone needs to make a reward for anyone finding a postrib rapture teacher, That actually incorporates the pretrib rapture verses into their "teaching"
About 95% of the time they will not address them when asked to interpret them.
It boggles the mind that rev14:14 has Jesus coming on a cloud holding a sickle, gathering his elect DURING THE TRIB.
And yet this gets cut from their bible, because it would interfere with "...thecdead in Christ RISE FIRST"
Every postribber testifies 1thes 4 is a goof by the author of the bible as they have the "dead in Christ RAISED SECOND"
Take ANY VERSE you claim I omit and challenge me to reconcile it.
Every single one harmonizes beautifully with the pretrib doctrine.
I can defend the pretrib rapture quite successfully.
Quite easily.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Nope. You need to first read, then quote scripture instead of only stating your own false interpretations of scriptures that you don't even quote, so that we can point out to you using scripture why your own private interpretation is wrong.

The multitude that had come out from great tribulation (Revelation 7:14) had been in and gone through the great tribulation that they came out from. That's why their robes had been washed and whitened in that trial. It was not the wrath/judgment of God that the unbelieving world will face when the wrath/judgment of God is poured out upon it.

"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see." Revelation 3:18.​

What is one taken, one left.?
What is 5 taken, 5 left?
Could it be 50%?
Now SHOW ME how I misinterpreted it. As you claim.
Use those exact verses and show us the "correct" interpretation.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Such a good question. Rhetorical in nature... I get it; but great question.

Grace and peace to you ZIL.

A easy one.
Like ducks in a barrel.
Yawn

 

[rebuilder 454]

So you unknowingly have succeeded in contradicting yourself and torpedoing your own case by quoting scripture that refers to what comes upon the saints as tribulation and the tribulation. How can the saints be raptured before the tribulation when the tribulation is referring to their tribulation?

Now give us the New Testament verses that call the wrath/judgment of God coming upon the unbelieving world "tribulation" or "the tribulation" or "the great tribulation".

You are wearing out your focus on the definition of a word.
That is a nothing burger.
Totally circular.

***********THE ISSUE AT HAND*************_
*******************IS******************
Rev14 ;14
Mat 24 :38
What the core principal is, is the bible DECLARES MORE that 1 "coming"
That has every postribber painted into the proverbial corner.
.....Matters not any special Doctrinally necessity ,of any one liner smoking gun., as in ;
Trumpets
Trump
Darby
Tribulation definition
Lahaye
Day of the Lord
Escapist inferior believers
Wicked taken first

Or any of the attempts to rabbit trail the pretrib rapture verses

 

[Zao is life]

You just posted that after the trib ( where you agree that the AC has killed all refusing the mark) that angels gather from heaven...so you are way off.

Actually I never stated it. Jesus stated it, and I merely quoted what He said, which is written in black and white in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

So you are way off. Your arguing with Christ about whether He will gather His elect before or after the tribulation (which is the tribulation of the saints throughout the New Testament), is way off.

In the pretrib rapture Jesus gathers.

First read scripture and then quote the scriptures instead of making statements based on your own private interpretations of scripture so that we can quote scripture to show you why you are wrong.

Making statements based solely on your own private interpretations of scripture without quoting any scriptures in support of what you re saying is a bad habit you have, and no one will ever take you seriously while you continue on that trend.

Psssst...you will never see me omit verses.

You have been omitting both scripture and facts all along that don't agree with what you're saying.

All the ones you think are omitted are addressed by me. Accurately.
What postrib teachers have done is BLATANTLY OMIT the pretrib rapture verses.

Nice try but this thread is proof to all who read it of the fact that you're falsely accusing others of what only you have been doing.

Mat24 :38
Rev 14:14

Are not examples of the pre-tribulation-rapture-of-the-saints (the only people the tribulation is referring to). They are talking about pre- judgment/wrath raptures. Contrary to your false claim, this has been pointed out to you a number of times by a number of post-trib Bible believers.

You have not successfully proved pre-trib from scripture. You don't even try. All you do is repeatedly state what you believe scripture is saying, expressing your own private interpretation and either omitting or simply ignoring all scriptures and facts regarding scripture as you go along.

Anyway, time will tell. I pray to see you being resurrected or raptured with all of us, when the time comes.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Actually I never stated it. Jesus stated it, and I merely quoted what He said, which is written in black and white in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

So you are way off. Your arguing with Christ about whether He will gather His elect before or after the tribulation (which is the tribulation of the saints throughout the New Testament), is way off.

First read scripture and then quote the scriptures instead of making statements based on your own private interpretations of scripture so that we can quote scripture to show you why you are wrong.

Making statements based solely on your own private interpretations of scripture without quoting any scriptures in support of what you re saying is a bad habit you have, and no one will ever take you seriously while you continue on that trend.

You have been omitting both scripture and facts all along that don't agree with what you're saying.


Nice try but this thread is proof to all who read it of the fact that you're falsely accusing others of what only you have been doing.

Are not examples of the pre-tribulation-rapture-of-the-saints (the only people the tribulation is referring to). They are talking about pre- judgment/wrath raptures. Contrary to your false claim, this has been pointed out to you a number of times by a number of post-trib Bible believers.

You have not successfully proved pre-trib from scripture. You don't even try. All you do is repeatedly state what you believe scripture is saying, expressing your own private interpretation and either omitting or simply ignoring all scriptures and facts regarding scripture as you go along.

Anyway, time will tell. I pray to see you being resurrected or raptured with all of us, when the time comes.

"""You have been omitting both scripture and facts all along that don't agree with what you're saying."""
Address a verse you think is omitted calmly and directly and I will also address that same verse.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Actually I never stated it. Jesus stated it, and I merely quoted what He said, which is written in black and white in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

So you are way off. Your arguing with Christ about whether He will gather His elect before or after the tribulation (which is the tribulation of the saints throughout the New Testament), is way off.

First read scripture and then quote the scriptures instead of making statements based on your own private interpretations of scripture so that we can quote scripture to show you why you are wrong.

Making statements based solely on your own private interpretations of scripture without quoting any scriptures in support of what you re saying is a bad habit you have, and no one will ever take you seriously while you continue on that trend.

You have been omitting both scripture and facts all along that don't agree with what you're saying.


Nice try but this thread is proof to all who read it of the fact that you're falsely accusing others of what only you have been doing.

Are not examples of the pre-tribulation-rapture-of-the-saints (the only people the tribulation is referring to). They are talking about pre- judgment/wrath raptures. Contrary to your false claim, this has been pointed out to you a number of times by a number of post-trib Bible believers.

You have not successfully proved pre-trib from scripture. You don't even try. All you do is repeatedly state what you believe scripture is saying, expressing your own private interpretation and either omitting or simply ignoring all scriptures and facts regarding scripture as you go along.

Anyway, time will tell. I pray to see you being resurrected or raptured with all of us, when the time comes.

"""You have been omitting both scripture and facts all along that don't agree with what you're saying."""
Address a verse you think is omitted calmly and directly and I will also address that same verse.