Being "caught Up" To Christ Jesus

[teleiosis]

Well back atcha - in brotherly love!

The Bible does say Jesus will return in the same manner... so since the sky scrolls back with falling stars (a meteor shower) and then Jesus comes on the cloud, which as part of the sun/moon/star event which heralds the Day of the Lord, then some manner of setting down occurs - then He alighted upon the Mount of Olives and splits it in two. This is the second earthquake of the sixth Seal.

Then Jesus musters the Firstfruits of the Harvest from the spiritual Israel which is the Elect from not only beyond the grave, but from all over the Earth. These special people will stay with Jesus throughout the rest of the Day of the Lord as He tramples out the beginning of God's Wrath. These Firstfruits will also be with Jesus at the end of God's Wrath at Armageddon because they never leave His side.

As Angels seal the 144,000, Jesus will resurrect the Dead in Christ from Paradise, the ends of Heaven, and then with that multitude of Saints, He will return to this world on the clouds with them and then He will gather up the remaining Church peoples (with many new converts from the three Angels of Rev 14) as He encircles the Earth east to west. The speed of which will have the sky scrolling back when it is night in each successive time zone. For the remaining Elect who have managed to survive the Great Tribulation, they will be able to look up and see their redemption drawing near with the Saints (from Paradise and realms to their east).

Having not lost any, Jesus will then lead together this Great Multitude, right out from the shortened Great Tribulation to the third Heaven of God the Father's presence in the Temple in Heaven.

After this Jesus will break the seventh Seal, and God's Wrath will begin on the second day of the two-day Day of the Lord. Fire and blood are supplied by the first Trumpet and the Angel of Rev 14:17 will join Jesus as He leads the 144,000 against not only the Jews who went along with the anti-Christ since the midpoint abomination, but also against the occupying army of the North still in the Land as they pursue the fleeing Jews who left in Zec 14:5 to join the other part of the Remnant Jews who previously fled from Judea at the approaching midpoint Gog-Magog invasion.

This is the time of Joel 2.

So unless you're in Israel on that Day - you're not going to see Jesus with the 144,000 standing on the then-split Mount of Olives.

hupomone. Keep the faith.

 

[Martin W.]

In the end times there are two separate events. In one , Jesus comes for his Church and the other he comes with his church. Many people confuse the two. Confused people make poor scholars.

If the Christian Church is still here in the end times why is it not mentioned in Revelation chapter 9 :

The 144,000 have been sealed by God and cannot be harmed.

The locusts are ordered to torture everybody else for 5 months.

The tortured people (everybody else) will seek death but not find it. They will long to die but death will elude them.

Then comes the sixth Angel and a third of mankind is killed.

The rest of mankind (the other two thirds) still did not repent from worshiping demons , murders, magic arts, sexual immorality, and thefts.

Everybody on earth is accounted for but the church is absent.

Jesus has already come for his church. Shortly he will return with his church.

 

[teleiosis]

If God uses the weak to confound the strong, does He really need thousands of millions of souls in immortal bodies to overcome hundreds of millions of the wicked at Armageddon?

Does a Holy Groom take his new-found Bride to war?

It's only 59 degrees here in Seattle... brrrr.

 

[Paul]

... Confused people make poor scholars.
...Everybody on earth is accounted for but the church is absent.

Sorry M. you are confused. In Revelation the Dispensation of Grace is ended and the Dispensation of Judgement has begun. The members of the "church" are now the Assemblies mentioned in chapter 2 & 3

 

[teleiosis]

While that is the last mention of "church" as a word in the book of Revelation, who the are the Great Multitude of chapter 7, who are the offspring of the woman Israel who hold to the teaching of Jesus in chapter 12, the object of the Harvest in chapter 14, or the ones making noise in chapter 19?

 

[Strangelove]

So unless you're in Israel on that Day - you're not going to see Jesus with the 144,000 standing on the then-split Mount of Olives.

Well.....teleiosis...I can see your just going to keep repeating your indoctrinated mantra over and over instead of addressing my points so I guess its discussion over.

As for the quote above. I pray that most people who read it will be able to discern the validity of it without too much difficulty which i'm sure they will.

 

[teleiosis]

A literal approach can distill the major linear narratives of end-time prophecy into a sequence of events.

Everything I presented can be backed up with Scripture, and I think I'll start my own thread to introduce this new paradigm of mine to a new audience. Some will get something out of it, some won't... but nothing prevents learning so much as contempt prior to investigation.

Let me know how that works out for you.
hupomone. Keep the faith, remain steadfast, and endure patiently.

 

[veteran]

In the end times there are two separate events. In one , Jesus comes for his Church and the other he comes with his church. Many people confuse the two. Confused people make poor scholars.

If the Christian Church is still here in the end times why is it not mentioned in Revelation chapter 9 :

The 144,000 have been sealed by God and cannot be harmed.

The locusts are ordered to torture everybody else for 5 months.

The tortured people (everybody else) will seek death but not find it. They will long to die but death will elude them.

Then comes the sixth Angel and a third of mankind is killed.

The rest of mankind (the other two thirds) still did not repent from worshiping demons , murders, magic arts, sexual immorality, and thefts.

Everybody on earth is accounted for but the church is absent.

Jesus has already come for his church. Shortly he will return with his church.

Just because we don't see the word "church" mentioned again after Rev.3 doesn't mean a pre-trib rapture.

Rev.7 is actually revealing TWO groups that are sealed with God's sealing.

The 144,000 we are told is about 12,000 from each tribe of Israel. But at Rev.7:9 another group is mentioned, a great multitude from all nations, standing before the throne and The Lamb.

When John is asked where those came from, he is told they came out of great tribulation, having made their robes white in the Blood of The Lamb, and therefore they are before His throne. That reveals both groups went through the tribulation.

There's only one time given when the saints will stand before His throne and reign with Him, and that's the Milennium timing, associated with the "rod of iron" (Rev.2; Rev.5:9-10). Both those two groups of Rev.7 are Christ's Church, even though we don't find the word "church" mentioned in that.

The pre-trib rapture doctrine demands that you separate those two groups, as some will say the 144,000 are Jews that are left-behind on earth while the Rev.7:9 group are raptured out to skip the tribulation.

We have to pay attention to all... the parameters given in a prophecy, and only then can we have some idea of what timing the event is for.


Rev 11:4
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
(KJV)

We're told back at the end of Rev.1 that the seven candlesticks are the seven churches. Yet right there within the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe timing, these two candlesticks are mentioned, pointing to two churches. There's nothing written that shows our Lord Jesus comes for only a 'part' of His Church while leaving another part of His Church on earth to go through the tribulation. At the gathering to Christ, all of His Church is gathered to Him.

 

[Martin W.]

Sorry M. you are confused. In Revelation the Dispensation of Grace is ended and the Dispensation of Judgement has begun. The members of the "church" are now the Assemblies mentioned in chapter 2 & 3

Have you conveniently jump to chapter 2 & 3 because you are unable to find the church in chapter 9. ?

Remember everyone on earth is accounted for in chapter 9 but the christian church is not there.

Why does it bother folks so much that Jesus may have already come in the clouds to meet us in the air ?

It would not bother me at all. As a matter of fact it would fit with the glorious hope we are told to have.

To go through the tribulation would not be a glorious event for the Christian to anticipate.

 

[Martin W.]

The 144,000 we are told is about 12,000 from each tribe of Israel. But at Rev.7:9 another group is mentioned, a great multitude from all nations, standing before the throne and The Lamb.

When John is asked where those came from, he is told they came out of great tribulation, having made their robes white in the Blood of The Lamb, and therefore they are before His throne. That reveals both groups went through the tribulation.

1/ Announcement that The day of wrath is about to begin.( last verse of ch 6)

2/ After this the 144000 are sealed (ch 7)

3/ After this the multitude is seen around the throne in heaven (Christians) (ch 7)

4/ After this the trumpets and wrath begin (ch 8)

5/ Previous to this some tribulation has already occurred (ch 5 & 6)( scrolls and seals) and the church may very well experience that portion of the tribulation. Thus John's comment that those in front of the throne have come out (of the great tribulation)

Certainly the christian church is not there for the wrath of the Lamb. Instead the believer is located at the throne of the lamb .

If the believer is at the throne ..... guess what .... he is not on earth.

Get over the word rapture . Call it something else if you want. It really doesn't matter what you call it. The church is absent during the wrath of the Lamb .

Best regards
Martin

 

[Paul]

Have you conveniently jump to chapter 2 & 3 because you are unable to find the church in chapter 9. ?

Remember everyone on earth is accounted for in chapter 9 but the christian church is not there.

Why does it bother folks so much that Jesus may have already come in the clouds to meet us in the air ?

It would not bother me at all. As a matter of fact it would fit with the glorious hope we are told to have.

To go through the tribulation would not be a glorious event for the Christian to anticipate.

The church is in chapter 9 but it is no longer the church of grace. Those people are the church during judgement.

"Why does it bother folks so much that Jesus may have already come in the clouds to meet us in the air ?" Because it is a lie and if you let yourself be deceived by the lie you will have worshipped the Antichrist! Christ does not return until the 7th trump.

The tribulation doesn't worry me a bit. You need to stop watching holiwod movies.

 

[Martin W.]

Jesus is The Lamb and the tribulation tell us about the wrath of the Lamb against an unbelieving world.

However some Christians think the wrath of the lamb should also be upon the followers of the Lamb.

This summarizes the whole (rapture) debate.

Jesus did not build his church in order to pour his wrath upon it. He built it to heal it , forgive it, rescue it , and save it.

What Do you believe ?

 

[Martin W.]

The tribulation doesn't worry me a bit.

I have surveyed the non-christian un-believing world and get the same response.

 

[Paul]

I have surveyed the non-christian un-believing world and get the same response.

That is because they are ignorant, I'm not. They are the one's that will be affected.

 

[veteran]

The idea that Christ's Church is 'gathered' before the tribulation simply is not written in God's Word. That doctrine came out of 1830's Great Britain with the Irvingite movement which John Darby then latched onto, and then others like Scofield carried that idea forth. Christ's Church for 1800 years held to a post-tribulational coming of our Lord Jesus.

At times, we all have difficulty in separating the timelines in God's Word. And sometimes we have to pay strong attention to Scripture. Revelation 7 is one of those.

The subject at the start of the chapter is God's sealing of His servants FOR the tribulation (Rev.9). The four angels holding the four winds are told to hold back untll the sealing of God's servants takes place. Then 144,000 of th 12 tribes of Israel are shown sealed. And then this...

Rev 7:9-17
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God Which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

What happens IF one just stops reading right there at the end of that 12th verse? Could that be seen as Christ having gathered those to Him already? Yes. But isn't it strange the 144,000 aren't mentioned after the 8th verse, but are mentioned being at Christ's throne in Rev.14, even as the idea of firstfruits to Him, including at Rev.20? We see here there is NO mention so far, of what time this second group of the nations got there before Christ's throne, nor of how they got there. Christ gathering them has to be assumed.

But what happens IF we continue reading there in Rev.7 about that second group out of all the nations? Let's find out...


13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, "What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?"

In this verse, John is asked who that great multitude is, and even where they came from.

14 And I said unto him, "Sir, thou knowest." And he said to me, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He That sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb Which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
(KJV)

The idea of washing their robes, making them white in the Blood of The Lamb is about overcoming this world through tribulation. It's pointing that these went through the great tribualtion, and therefore, are they before the throne of God and serve Him day and night.

When are those in Christ's Salvation to begin serving Him day and night? During the Milennium timing, AFTER the tribulation has ended.

When shall the saints hunger no more, nor thirst anymore, nor feel heat, and all tears wiped off their faces? During the Milennium timing, and definitely in the new heavens a new earth timing (Rev.21).

When will Christ's Milennium Temple of Ezek.40 forward exist with His elect priests and kings reigning with Him? During His Milennium reign. That's also when the River that will come out of the altar of His House will flow on the earth (Ezek.47; Rev.22).

So what timing is all that? It is for AFTER the events of the day of The LORD, AFTER His wrath poured upon the wicked, AFTER Christ has ended this present world with Satan locked in the pit. It is when Christ hands out the rewards to His saints.

But yet, at the start of this Rev.7 chapter, we're shown the four winds have not been released yet to bring the end of this world.

What timing then was John seeing for that great multitude out of all nations and peoples? The "thousand years" timing of Rev.20. John was shown a future view of the saints gathered out of all nations standing before Christ's throne and serving Him day and night. That certainly is NOT about the time before the great tribulation, nor any time during the great tribulation.

 

[veteran]

Jesus is The Lamb and the tribulation tell us about the wrath of the Lamb against an unbelieving world.

However some Christians think the wrath of the lamb should also be upon the followers of the Lamb.

This summarizes the whole (rapture) debate.

Jesus did not build his church in order to pour his wrath upon it. He built it to heal it , forgive it, rescue it , and save it.

What Do you believe ?

Matt 24:21-22
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
(KJV)

The great tribulation is not God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked. If that was so, there wouldn't be any tribulation to begin with, for it's the wicked persecuting His saints during the tribulation that causes His wrath to come and destroy the wicked.

 

[Martin W.]

Matt 24:21-22
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
(KJV)

The great tribulation is not God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked. If that was so, there wouldn't be any tribulation to begin with, for it's the wicked persecuting His saints during the tribulation that causes His wrath to come and destroy the wicked.

Who was the audience in Mathew and who are the elect. ??

If indeed the christian church is removed before the wrath of the Lamb , I do not for a minute think that will include Israel.

To save a remnant of Israel the time will be shortened.

Things will be so horrendous for the surviving remnant of Israel their only resort is to pray for Messiah to rescue them.

The Jewish Messiah does indeed come ..... and he looks exactly like Jesus Christ. . They will mourn the one whom they have pierced.

 

[Martin W.]

To summarize once more:

Some folks confuse two events .... When Jesus comes for his church ..... and later when Jesus comes with his church.

Some folks also confuse two different groups ... the Lord's dealings with the Christian church .... and The Lord's dealings with Israel . (Especially in prophecy.)

Historically , very few scholars had even considered Israel because it had been disbanded for thousands of years until May 1948.. That has added to the confusion.

But God has always had Israel central to his plans. More so in the end times.

When reading prophecy we should try our best to distinguish between :
- the christian
- Israel
- the world

When we are able to properly categorize the three we can much better understand prophecy. Yet I feel not everything will be understood until some of these events are actually happening.

 

[veteran]

Sounds like rhetoric from the Pre-trib "secret rapture" ideas again to me.

Christ's Church does not go up and then come back down like some bouncing ball.

Christ will gather ALL His saints at one time only, and that's after the great tribulation He taught in Matt.24. He made a direct statement to that effect.

Those of Israel and Gentiles who refuse Him are cut off.

Only the remnant of Israel that believes will be saved, and that remnant is part of Christ's Church, along with believing Gentiles, together as one body. That's who Christ will gather at His coming on the 7th trumpet. And that's the pattern Rev.7 is showing about the sealing of two groups, because Rev.9 shows that sealing is against deception in order to go through the tribulation. That great multitude of Gentiles in Rev.7:9 are sealed for that too, not raptured out to leave the other group behind.

Thus the way more of unbelieving Israel is able to come to Christ during the tribulation is by Christ waiting to gather His saints at the end of the tribulation on the seventh trumpet.

And there's one more important factor that many forget. Christ is NOT going to gather those who fall away from Him to bow and worship the coming false messiah, which will include deceived Christians. That's the five foolish virgins that He will tell to get away from Him. Their part will be in the "outer darkness" with the unbelieving, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Martin W.]

Sounds like rhetoric from the Pre-trib "secret rapture" ideas again to me.

Jesus says he will come on an unknown day and an unknown hour .

Then tell me Veteran ........ how are you able to determine that he will not come before the tribulation ?