Being "caught Up" To Christ Jesus

[Paul]

Jesus says he will come on an unknown day and an unknown hour .

Then tell me Veteran ........ how are you able to determine that he will not come before the tribulation ?

READ:
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/444-the-rapture-lie-bible-study/

and/or

http://biblicalrapture.net/

 

[Martin W.]

The idea that Christ's Church is 'gathered' before the tribulation simply is not written in God's Word. That doctrine came out of 1830's Great Britain with the Irvingite movement which John Darby then latched onto, and then others like Scofield carried that idea forth. Christ's Church for 1800 years held to a post-tribulational coming of our Lord Jesus.

Veteran.

I dont ever expect you to change your position but for the sake of other readers I would like to point out that you are off by about 1500 years.

Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), wrote this in a sermon::

"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

This text was originally a sermon called ...... "On the Last Times, the Anti-Christ, and the End of the World. "

The sermon describes the events of the last days, beginning with the rapture, the Great Tribulation of 3 1/2 years duration under the Antichrist's rule, followed by the Second Coming of Christ.

I repeat , this was taught in the early church around 350 AD

Martin

 

[Foreigner]

I am afraid that you are speaking soft wisdom into a strong wind.

Many that claim that the "Rapture concept" is a product of just the last 100+ years or so likely aren't going to let the interjection of facts change their mind.

 

[omnicopy]

I am afraid that you are speaking soft wisdom into a strong wind.

Many that claim that the "Rapture concept" is a product of just the last 100+ years or so likely aren't going to let the interjection of facts change their mind.

They can't change their mind! Satan has it clouded, plus they don't want to change. It would take away their "peace and safety".

Kim

 

[veteran]

Several Pre-trib scholars have of late been trying to push false writings of early history in trying to prove a 'rapture' to Christ prior to the tribulation. It's called Revisionism.

The first documented evidence of a Christian Church that held to a pre-trib gathering to Christ comes from Great Britain in the 1830's. Someone like Ribera, as a theological experiment, may have written an essay on the idea, but it still was not an accepted doctrine in ANY Christian Church prior to the 1800's. So you've got a lot of research to do.

You might start with the Last Trumpet Post-Trib Research Center, since the Christian scholar there has already traced much of the Revisionist origins from today's pre-trib school.

Yet a babe in Christ still doesn't need to listen to those outsider Revisionist debates coming from today's Pre-trib school anyway, for The Lord Jesus Christ already gave a direct statement that His return happens immediately AFTER the tribulation...

Matt 24:21-30
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(KJV)

So your correct, I cannot be 'moved' away from that timing which The Lord Jesus Christ declared when He returns, as He has already declared there it will occur AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

Those who refuse to listen to Christ's Own Words there would rather listen to men's doctrines instead. Those doctrines of men are like a false wall built with untempered mortar, so that when the rains come it's all washed away.

 

[bud02]

Veteran.

I dont ever expect you to change your position but for the sake of other readers I would like to point out that you are off by about 1500 years.

Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), wrote this in a sermon::

"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

This text was originally a sermon called ...... "On the Last Times, the Anti-Christ, and the End of the World. "

The sermon describes the events of the last days, beginning with the rapture, the Great Tribulation of 3 1/2 years duration under the Antichrist's rule, followed by the Second Coming of Christ.

I repeat , this was taught in the early church around 350 AD

Martin

I fail to see the relevance Ephraem's sermon. Are we to take it as we do the letters of the NT?

[sup]18[/sup] Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. [sup]19[/sup] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
[sup]20[/sup] But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. [sup]21[/sup] I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

[sup]26[/sup] These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. [sup]27[/sup] But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

Above is a clear warning from John, it would indicate that in his life false teachings were already on the march. It would seem that they came into the instruction of the truth "Apostles" but did not continue. quote "They went out from us, but they were not of us." There for even if you can show from historians an association from the Apostles to Ephraem we should still be proceed with caution. Like I said just what relevance does your point make?
Other than to tell me what I clearly understand from John.
I'm not defending veteran, I clearly disagree with him but I fail to see your point.

 

[veteran]

Pseudo-Ephraim's writings have been proposed by those like Grant Jeffrey to TRY and support the existence of a Pre-Trib view among the early Church. Here's a quote from a writing Sheperd of Hermes by Pseudo-Ephraim from the following link:

http://www.christianmediaresearch.com/jeffreygraft.html

"Happy are ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on, and happy they who shall not deny their own life. For as gold is tested by fire, and thus becomes useful, so are you tested who dwell in it. Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it."

Also found at that link is how those like Grant Jeffrey have tried use other early writings in doing Revisionist history to try and 'create' early support for the Pre-Trib rapture view. But it's not difficult to see how his bias is trying to insert ideas into those early writings that simply do not exist.

 

[bud02]

Pseudo-Ephraim's writings have been proposed by those like Grant Jeffrey to TRY and support the existence of a Pre-Trib view among the early Church. Here's a quote from a writing Sheperd of Hermes by Pseudo-Ephraim from the following link:

http://www.christian...ffreygraft.html

"Happy are ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on, and happy they who shall not deny their own life. For as gold is tested by fire, and thus becomes useful, so are you tested who dwell in it. Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it."

Also found at that link is how those like Grant Jeffrey have tried use other early writings in doing Revisionist history to try and 'create' early support for the Pre-Trib rapture view. But it's not difficult to see how his bias is trying to insert ideas into those early writings that simply do not exist.

Thanks for the link veteran. One thing we do agree on.............. there is no secret rapture.
I've been threw this early church history stuff with Catholics defending traditions not found in scripture. The quickest way to disarm an other gospel, or interpretation that is not clearly found taught in the NT is to remember 1 and 2 John. He was already very aware of the implications to come form those that went out from them.

I got so sick of Mathew 16:18 that I came to the conclusion that the whole of the catholic institution stands on that one verse alone. I spent a lot of time conversing with bible literate catholics, was band, had more user names than you could shake a stick at. My conclusion was that after become cornered by the word, sola scripture, the bible is disregarded except Mathew 16:18 that's the magic verse that answers all the questions. All interpretations and spirit are contained and preserved for the cardinals and popes alone to do with as they chose. Yes I have a bone with the catholic institution but its not passive, I went to find out for myself. If you ever wonder what is meant by their minds are seared as with a hot iron, spend a few weeks on a catholic forum. The bible serves only one purpose, along with a small hand full of versus, Mathew 16:18 giving all authority and power to the pope. After that it becomes useless and ignored. THERE IS NO SALVATION OUT SIDE OF THE RCC. NO ONE CAN INTERPRET SCRIPTURE EXCEPT THE RCC. It just goes on and on and on. It would appear that many Catholics are now becoming aware of the fact that the Pope and Cardinals have not clearly laid out, what exactly the DOGMA of the church is, they are forever disagreeing about what is canon law or when the pope speaks ex cathedra and what is not. Yet the Pope and his Cardinals just let them go around and around and around the mulberry tree. I do believe the Popes have learned from history, its better to say nothing than to say something you will regret. Especially when you claim your infallible. End of rant.