Believers stay righteous through their obedience

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justbyfaith

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I would bring up a question for discussion, since the law is so highly exalted in this thread: how does Galatians 3:12 apply?

This verse is a monkey wrench in the works of my own theology.

Comments? Answers?
 

farouk

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I would bring up a question for discussion, since the law is so highly exalted in this thread: how does Galatians 3:12 apply?

This verse is a monkey wrench in the works of my own theology.

Comments? Answers?
The point is that no one can keep the law; and we need grace.
 
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justbyfaith

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However, does it not say that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4)?

And isn't the law fulfilled by love (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6)?

And isn't the love of Christ shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:5)?
 

farouk

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However, does it not say that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4)?

And isn't the law fulfilled by love (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6)?

And isn't the love of Christ shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:5)?
It's the obedience of faith / obedience to the faith, as Paul says at the beginning and the end of Romans, which characterize the believer's life of faith, rather than meritorious works.
 

justbyfaith

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Does obedience mean that we refrain from sinning? If so, how does 1 John 3:4 (kjv) apply?
 

farouk

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Jhn
Does obedience mean that we refrain from sinning? If so, how does 1 John 3:4 (kjv) apply?
John's First Epistle is noted for its use of the present continuous. So habitual sin is characteristic of unbelief. Whereas if the cleansed believer is overtaken in a fault, our glorious Advocate continually pleads for us.
 
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justbyfaith

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My point being that the obedience of faith might translate into obedience to the law...since sin is the transgression of the law and obedience is the opposite of sinning.
 

Zachary

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How many times do I have to tell you of the ...
... many Scriptures in the NT which are warnings of losing salvation!

But, I'm really not telling you anything ...
what I am doing is showing you these Scripture verses!

Are you spiritually blind, or are you just choosing to reject clear Scripture?

What would make some sense is for you to just say that ...
you prefer to believe in verses such as John 3:16.
 

Zachary

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There are some who believe that by their obedience they gain brownie points with God,
and give themselves a "better chance" of making it into heaven.
There are some who believe that there are NT Scriptures
which clearly warn about the necessity of obedience.

Would one of you cry babies please comment on this section of Romans 6:16 ...
"(slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness"
.
 
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justbyfaith

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When we receive Jesus we receive Him not only as Saviour but as Lord; and in that He saves us by His grace: He regenerates and renews us so that we become inclined to obey Him as the result of His grace in our lives.

Therefore it is not obedience that saves, but rather the attitude of surrender, that saves and also leads us into obedience; and this surrender attitude is a major part of what we call faith.

See Ephesians 2:8-9.
 
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Enoch111

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Therefore it is not obedience that saves, but rather the attitude of surrender that leads us into obedience; and this surrender attitude is a major part of what we call faith
Even so, it is (1) God's infinite grace and (2) the perfect finished work of Christ which are the basis of salvation. The surrender and obedience to God give sinners access to the grace and mercy of God, but we must never confuse the foundation of salvation with our response to the Gospel.

Furthermore, when all is said and done, GOD HIMSELF IS OUR SALVATION
(our righteousness and our sanctification). That is the meaning of Yah-shua, which is the Hebrew for Jesus: And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. (Mt 1:21)
 
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mjrhealth

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There are some who believe that by their obedience they gain brownie points with God, and give themselves a "better chance" of making it into heaven. We all see these people, and I agree, it is sad. But what is even more sad is that there are so many who think that grace and law have to be at war with each other. They seem incapable of seeing that grace, while granting us something we don't deserve, includes the power and capacity to obey the law. Thus in that sense, grace and law, far from being at enmity with one another, complement one another.
.
Just for you and your "obedience".

1Ti_1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Why because

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

and who are the righteous

1Jn_2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

and the law

Psa 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

because

Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Gal_2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

As I have said repeatedly. all the law does and will ever do is kill people.

Rom_3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

And you still want the law??

Jas_2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Faith is our obedience

Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ

One more

Act_15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

If you choose to keep the law, that is your choice, it required "you" to pay for breaking it, your blood, since by keeping it you have denied His sacrifice.

Our righteousness is only by Christ if we are in Him, our obedience is by faith, not by works, for our works are dead.
 

justbyfaith

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Rom_3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
And sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law but under grace. Romans 6:14.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4.
 
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Episkopos

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The point is that no one can keep the law; and we need grace.


Grace is the power to keep the law without human effort. It is the power of a new life in Christ whereby we do things from the love of God...because we desire this more than anything. It is a change of nature.

The irony of it all is that when we focus on the law...we fail at both the relationship with God AND the law. But if our focus is on Jesus then we fulfill the law automatically as it were.
 
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farouk

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Grace is the power to keep the law without human effort. It is the power of a new life in Christ whereby we do things from the love of God...because we desire this more than anything. It is a change of nature.
"Ye must be born again", indeed. Ephesians 2.10, also.
 
B

brakelite

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There are some who believe that by their obedience they gain brownie points with God, and give themselves a "better chance" of making it into heaven.

There are some who believe that there are NT Scriptures
which clearly warn about the necessity of obedience.

Just for you and your "obedience".

1Ti_1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Why because

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

and who are the righteous

1Jn_2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

and the law

Psa 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

because

Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Gal_2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

As I have said repeatedly. all the law does and will ever do is kill people.

Rom_3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

And you still want the law??

Jas_2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Faith is our obedience

Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ

One more

Act_15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

If you choose to keep the law, that is your choice, it required "you" to pay for breaking it, your blood, since by keeping it you have denied His sacrifice.

Our righteousness is only by Christ if we are in Him, our obedience is by faith, not by works, for our works are dead.

  • I clearly need to brush up on my writing skills. I present my thoughts on the relation between grace and works, and immediately get two adverse reactions from two people from opposite sides of the argument. Fascinating. So. Options.
  • Do I rehash my original post.
  • Do I become like Zachary suggests, change my whole theology and work and obey my way into heaven?
  • Do I become like mjr, and discard any notion of obedience altogether because he believes that obedience to God commandments is wrong?
What to do. What to do. Oh. Another option.
Guys... Can I suggest politely, please, that you read my post again without the preconceptions? Then tell me explicitly where my theology fails? And why?
 
B

brakelite

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@mjrhealth @Zachary
Can I invite you both please to share with us what your understanding of the following passages means to you.
KJV Romans 8
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.....

....7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
 

mjrhealth

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....7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Amen, and those in the spirit do not follow after the law...


And obedience is by faith

Rom_3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom_7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

And that was the Israelite who where given the law, not us gentiles who never had it.
 
B

brakelite

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Amen, and those in the spirit do not follow after the law...
But by the power of the Spirit their lives are lived in harmony with the law, because they have love in the heart...and love is the fulfilling of the law. So the laws of God are still valid...still binding...but the manner by which obedience is manifested is now by and through the power of the Most High working in the life of the believer. Not as Israel attempted to accomplish through saying to Moses, Ex 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, "All that the LORD hath spoken we will do". And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
Israel tried to obey in their own strength. God did not ask them to make any promises of obedience. Nor does He ask us to do likewise. But He does ask us to obey. And we do that through our surrender to His will in our lives, for Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Romans 6:16
 
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