Bible alone?

[amadeus]

No! It’s not biblical? Where does the Bible say have a reformation? It does not cos the church is the spotless bride of Christ! Neither the church or divine revelation can be reformed because they are from God! And there was no reformation only a revolt instead, they did not reform the church, but without any authority started new ones and only Christ has that authority mt 16:18 and none of the reformers were apostles! Eph 2:20
And the church cannot teach error! Jn 20:21-23 Jn 16:13 Jn 8:32

I guess you really did not want to discuss anything. I presume this tirade was in response to my two questions, which you did not really even try to answer:

Were things better before anyone spoke or wrote or tried to live only Sola Scriptura? Were there any good reasons for a reformation to occur?

 

[bbyrd009]

Thank you for you thoughtful suggestion.

Also, thank you for reminding me about Paul. When talking about the Church in Corinth Paul said that "HE laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it." In that passage (1 Corinthians 3:10–11) Paul is not claiming to have laid the foundation of the universal Church since he wasn’t even a Christian when that was done in Matthew 16:18. Thus he is speaking of Christ as the foundation of the local, not the universal, Church. Scripture says in 1 Peter 2:6 that Jesus is The Church’s cornerstone, not its foundation. A cornerstone is only one piece of the foundation and this does NOT exclude other pieces. Which brings us back to the aforementioned Ephesians 2:20 which says the household of God is “built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone.” Another passage in context to all this is Revelation 21:14 where New Jerusalem is said to have not one foundation, but twelve foundations, with the names of the apostles.

SUMMARY: 1 Peter 2: Christ is the cornerstone of the Church
1 Corinthians 3: Christ is the foundation of the local Church
Ephesians 2: Christ is the cornerstone with the apostles and New Testament prophets as the foundation
Revelation 21: the foundation is the Twelve
Matthew 16: the rock is Peter

So, when taking all of scripture into context concerning this matter, it is VERY clear that your "suggestion" should be re-evaluated.

Bible Study Mary

you got it really bad huh mary
so ok, your will be done i guess, fine with me

 

[bbyrd009]

Beautiful!

for a literal interp, via Esau, spotless even, yes
completely irrelevant of course, no connection to today whatsoever, but meh, go with it

 

[Marymog]

you got it really bad huh mary
so ok, your will be done i guess, fine with me

No, I don't have "it really bad". You do since you have no answer...

 

[bbyrd009]

No, I don't have "it really bad". You do since you have no answer...

well, just to be clear for others, Paul writes that way in order to hide wisdom from the wise, and i suggest that while it could be interpreted that way, you have to admit that you are the most amazing Bible Scholar you have ever met, eh? And that there is more to the story, that your thrashing around like a bull in a china shop will only obscure, in wadr typical Catholic fashion

so insist upon your one-dimensional interpretation all you like; i suggest that "You are Peter, and upon this rock..." is classic misdirection, just made for those who say they know to lick up

 

[JunChosen]

so insist upon your one-dimensional interpretation all you like; i suggest that "You are Peter, and upon this rock..." is classic misdirection, just made for those who say they know to lick up

I concur that Matthew 16:18 is a classic misdirection of Scripture as we read in John 1:42 that Peter by interpretation is a stone.

Can Jesus build His church upon a sinful man?

The truth is,
"For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God? Psalms 18:31

To God Be The Glory

 

[theefaith]

Paul is also a sinner but He has the ministry of reconciliation 2 cor 5:18 foundation of the church is the apostles eph 2:20 judus was a sinner but also an apostle acts 1 and why is Peter even mentioned in matt 16:18? And you give the keys of the kingdom to a person, Peter! See Is 22 the prime minister hold the keys of the kingdom under the king and administers the kingdom! Jn 21:17 Peter is the one to “feed my sheep”

 

[Davy]

Good what is the Bible and what is not the Bible and how do you know your correct?

That obviously is not a question based on Faith in God's Word.

Do you believe the Testimonies of The Gospel of Jesus Christ?

If you say yes, then it must mean you accept the 'witnesses' of Christ's Apostles who were with Jesus as written down in The Bible. If you say no, then it means you chose to not believe The Bible as The Word of God. No one will make you believe; it's up to you.

 

[theefaith]

What did Nathaniel write down, and where does the Bible say the apostles are to write anything?

Jesus said go and teach! Matt 28:18

 

[theefaith]

Only the church thru the authority of Peter with the keys and the apostles their successors with the power to bind and loose can say what is the Bible and make an authentic interpretation!

 

[JunChosen]

What did Nathaniel write down, and where does the Bible say the apostles are to write anything?

Jesus said go and teach! Matt 28:18

You sound like a Catholic as most people in the Philippines are.

Did you not know Peter wrote the books 1 and 2 Peter?
AND, Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote in 1 Corinthians 14:37 "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord."
AND, again Peter writes under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in 2 Peter 1:21..."but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

To God Be The Glory

 

[JunChosen]

Only the church thru the authority of Peter with the keys and the apostles their successors with the power to bind and loose can say what is the Bible and make an authentic interpretation!

Here lies your dilemma. Most people do not understand the Greek here. It should have been translated and written as, "having been bound" and "having been loosed" that is the prior action is in heaven.

Please ask an expert in Greek if I am correct.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Eternally Grateful]

the Bible does say that The Church was built upon Peter and the Apostles in Matthew 16:18 and Ephesians 2:20.

Bible Study Mary

No, it said it is built on CHrist, Peter and the apostle are the foundation stones. The cornerstone (Christ is however, what any building is built on, without it, the building is weak and has no real foundation.

 

[Marymog]

No, it said it is built on CHrist, Peter and the apostle are the foundation stones. The cornerstone (Christ is however, what any building is built on, without it, the building is weak and has no real foundation.

Hi EG,

You are right, the Church is built ON Christ. So according to Scripture 'who' is "on" Christ?

Paul said to the Corinthians he laid a foundation for their church. What does that mean?

Bible Study Mary

 

[theefaith]

Read Is 22 the prime minister holds the keys of the kingdom under the king and administers the kingdom! And when the successors of Moses had the keys and the power to bind and loose Matt 23 Jesus commanded them to be obeyed!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hi EG,

You are right, the Church is built ON Christ. So according to Scripture 'who' is "on" Christ?

Paul said to the Corinthians he laid a foundation for their church. What does that mean?

Bible Study Mary

For THEIR local church

THE church is built on Christ

Jesus told peter, I now call you Petros (small stone or pebble) and on this Petra (large stone or boulder) I will build my church

the rock the church was built on was not petro (little peter) but Petra, which was christ the son of the living God,

 

[theefaith]

Why does Peter receive the Keys?

Christ builds the church! Christ is the founder! He is God, the king and He builds the church on Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority as Christ!

Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Jn 8:32 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

 

[Marymog]

For THEIR local church

THE church is built on Christ

Jesus told peter, I now call you Petros (small stone or pebble) and on this Petra (large stone or boulder) I will build my church

the rock the church was built on was not petro (little peter) but Petra, which was christ the son of the living God,

Hi EG,

I think you are saying that the "local church" is built on Christ. If so, I agree with that. Paul even said to the Corinthian church about the church in Corinth that he is a master builder and that he laid the foundation of that church and someone else is building upon it (1 Corinthians 3:10-11). Obviously Paul couldn't be the foundation of The Church since he wasn't even a Christian when Christ started The Church so it only makes sense that he is the foundation of the Corinthian church. Christ is the cornerstone of the foundation and Paul, and the other Apostles, are part of the foundation of The Church just like Scripture says. Paul, along with the other Apostles and prophets, are part of the foundation and then other men are "building upon it" according to Paul. (Probably someone like James who was a student of Paul.) Soooo if the other parts of the foundation (Apostles, prophets) are smaller than the cornerstone will the foundation be solid and stand as it is being built upon? Of course not !!! So the Apostles are equal with Jesus in a sense but without Jesus, the cornerstone, you can not have a solid foundation AND you can't have a solid foundation made out of big and little rocks. They all have to be the same size.

Also, one needs to take into account what Jesus said to Peter in context:

Peter, inspired by God, says, “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.” So Peter, Simon Peter, confesses Jesus as the Christ. In turn, Jesus says, “[Simon,] you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church…the gates of Hell will not prevail…[and] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven…whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” So in other words, these things happen in this order:

1. Inspired by God, Peter confesses Jesus as the Christ; then Jesus confesses Simon as Peter
2. Then Jesus says that he’s going to build the church on the rock [petra]
3. Then he personalizes it even more by giving the binding and loosing authority specifically to Peter
4. Then giving him the keys to the kingdom of heaven.

Your interpretation of that passage is that “the rock is Jesus” turns it from Jesus blessing Peter to him switching blessing himself and then going back to Peter. That is an unnatural exegesis; it doesn't work.

Bible Study Mary

 

[Marymog]

Here lies your dilemma. Most people do not understand the Greek here. It should have been translated and written as, "having been bound" and "having been loosed" that is the prior action is in heaven.

Please ask an expert in Greek if I am correct.

To God Be The Glory

Here lies your dilemma. Not one translation agrees with your theory: Matthew 18:18 Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hi EG,

I think you are saying that the "local church" is built on Christ. If so, I agree with that. Paul even said to the Corinthian church about the church in Corinth that he is a master builder and that he laid the foundation of that church and someone else is building upon it (1 Corinthians 3:10-11). Obviously Paul couldn't be the foundation of The Church since he wasn't even a Christian when Christ started The Church so it only makes sense that he is the foundation of the Corinthian church. Christ is the cornerstone of the foundation and Paul, and the other Apostles, are part of the foundation of The Church just like Scripture says. Paul, along with the other Apostles and prophets, are part of the foundation and then other men are "building upon it" according to Paul. (Probably someone like James who was a student of Paul.) Soooo if the other parts of the foundation (Apostles, prophets) are smaller than the cornerstone will the foundation be solid and stand as it is being built upon? Of course not !!! So the Apostles are equal with Jesus in a sense but without Jesus, the cornerstone, you can not have a solid foundation AND you can't have a solid foundation made out of big and little rocks. They all have to be the same size.

So you place men equal,with Jesus? That’s where the first problem lies

paul and peter and all apostles were men, who were not perfect, who had self will who still Sinned, and even had to call each other out because they were not perfect.

Christ is perfect. He is the one who holds it all together,

Also, one needs to take into account what Jesus said to Peter in context:

Peter, inspired by God, says, “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.” So Peter, Simon Peter, confesses Jesus as the Christ. In turn, Jesus says, “[Simon,] you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church…the gates of Hell will not prevail…[and] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven…whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” So in other words, these things happen in this order:

1. Inspired by God, Peter confesses Jesus as the Christ; then Jesus confesses Simon as Peter
2. Then Jesus says that he’s going to build the church on the rock [petra]
3. Then he personalizes it even more by giving the binding and loosing authority specifically to Peter
4. Then giving him the keys to the kingdom of heaven.

Your interpretation of that passage is that “the rock is Jesus” turns it from Jesus blessing Peter to him switching blessing himself and then going back to Peter. That is an unnatural exegesis; it doesn't work.

Bible Study Mary

They rock is Jesus, if the rock was peter, he would have said I call you peter and on you I will build my church. At the very least, he would have said I call you Peters and on Peters I build my church

the fact he did not is all we need to see

the church was not built on peter, on Christ the chief cornerstone, the apostles (together) layer the foundation, and it has continued to be built bu us from that time[/quote][/QUOTE]