Bible alone?

[DNB]

And so now 30 or is it 40 thousand different groups formed from the Bible? What is with that?

Not something new and different, but clarification by the Holy Spirit to open hearts of what the Truth is!

Well, sorry Amadeus, which has proven to be worse or more divisive, having the Bible as the sole source for divine doctrine, or the subjective and often deluded opinion of those claiming to be inspired by the Holy Spirit? Point being, despite both being open to interpretation, at least having a common root and source, and point of verification, should minimalize or expose, the propensity to error?
For example, if one comes to me claiming to have a revelation, I can at least have a place of reference to challenge the veracity of the claim. If the perceived Holy Spirit is the only means of discerning divine truth, then I assure you, 30 - 40 thousand factions will be considered an insignificant amount in comparison.

 

[DNB]

How about God defining what God means?

Not men or men's traditions or men's understandings. Hence I can't embrace Sola Scriptura.

Hi JD, do you accept the divine inspiration of Scripture (66 Books of Old & New Testaments)?

 

[DNB]

Protestants have long held that the Bible is self-authenticating. Even the Roman Catholic Church, though giving regard to the Deuterocanonical books, will agree about the Canonical books; and Bible-believing, Protestant Christians would say that a hierarchy is not needed to tell them what is canonical. In the New Testament, with the exception of the Acts of the Apostles (notable title), all the NT books were authored by Apostles.

Supposed doubt about what the Bible really is, is a complete red herring.

Hi farouk, what do you mean by self-authenticating? That the contents itself reveals the divine inspiration behind it, or its self-proclaimed authority '...all Scripture is God breathed...'?
I assume that you mean the former, as even the koran declares to be handed down by God, as the book of mormon also.

I believe that it is self-authenticating due to the wisdom and profundity of the message. Also, how it coincides with human empirical and existential evidence. Plus, the common thread that runs through the entire 66 Books, by 40+- different authors, over the course of 1500+- years.
ie. Many Covenants, but all pointing to one.
- Christ was the 1st born of all creation, but chronologically, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and David, came first.
- Suffering Messiah
- Need for redemption, and Faith over works
- God's exclusive people, are now inclusive
- etc...

What exceptional wisdom, who saw any of this coming?
Plus, I think that @quietthinker addressed some predominant and indisputable points also.

 

[amadeus]

Well, sorry Amadeus, which has proven to be worse or more divisive, having the Bible as the sole source for divine doctrine, or the subjective and often deluded opinion of those claiming to be inspired by the Holy Spirit? Point being, despite both being subjective, at least having a common root and source, and point of verification, should minimalize or expose, the propensity to error?

The truth is! What a person say it is matters to him and to God. If another person hears someone who speaks in error, it will be no problem for the hearer, who is hungering and thirsting after God's righteousness. [Matt 5:6] God will know if he is and react accordingly.

For example, if one comes to me claiming to have a revelation, I can at least have a place of reference to challenge the veracity of the claim. If the perceived Holy Spirit is the only means of discerning divine truth, then I assure you, 30 - 40 thousand factions will be considered an insignificant amount in comparison.

The Bible can the source, if the person interprets it as led by the Holy Spirit. If not then therein lies a problem. That two or more people with opposing views of what certain scriptures mean all claim to be led by the Holy Spirit does not hinder God. Are not we all to be His sheep always hearing His voice? The problem for some people is they often quench the Spirit making them spiritually deaf resulting in either complete delusion or some mixed message.

"To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." John 10:3-4

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Hi JD, do you accept the divine inspiration of Scripture (66 Books of Old & New Testaments)?

I accept that as revelation from Him, but do not limit His revelation to just that.

 

[DNB]

The truth is! What a person say it is matters to him and to God. If another person hears someone who speaks in error, it will be no problem for the hearer, who is hungering and thirsting after God's righteousness. [Matt 5:6] God will know if he is and react accordingly.


The Bible can the source, if the person interprets it as led by the Holy Spirit. If not then therein lies a problem. That two or more people with opposing views of what certain scriptures mean all claim to be led by the Holy Spirit does not hinder God. Are not we all to be His sheep always hearing His voice? The problem for some people is they often quench the Spirit making them spiritually deaf resulting in either complete delusion or some mixed message.

"To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." John 10:3-4

Not everybody has all gifts of the Spirit, and not everyone is able to exercise such faith, which is undeniably required to have such communication with God. Thus, sometimes, just quoting verse and chapter should be enough to settle the majority of disputes.
But herein lies the problem, it is when one must appeal to the Holy Spirit in order to substantiate their position, because the wisdom eludes them, it is then that we know who the blasphemer is. If you can't articulate the profundity of a doctrine, without attempting to pull rank and asserting that the Holy Spirit guided you, then the Holy Spirit was nowhere near you.
Like I've always said, state your case with wisdom, make sure that it coincides with Scripture, and then let others tell you whether or not you were endowed with the Spirit.

 

[DNB]

I accept that as revelation from Him, but do not limit His revelation to just that.

So then you don't believe in the sufficiency of Scripture?
I believe that God enlightens by bestowing His Spirit to the faithful. But, I don't believe that it will ever defy pre-established doctrines in Scripture. Thus, theologically speaking, I would affirm that Sola Scriptura and the sufficiency of Scripture stands.
Any thing after that, between God and a believer, would be strictly on a personal level (marriage, work, health, problems, ...), or again, an elucidation of Scripture. Not, a new revelation, which would be tantamount to an addition of Scripture (anethamized).

 

[Jane_Doe22]

So then you don't believe in the sufficiency of Scripture?

I find the logic behind the "sufficiency of scripture" paradigm to be extremely flawed, hence i cannot even address that question.

I believe that God enlightens by bestowing His Spirit to the faithful. But, I don't believe that it will ever defy pre-established doctrines in Scripture.

"Defying" versus "Continuing to speak and testify" are two completely different things. I don't believe in defiance, but I do passionately believe in continual testifying.

Thus, theologically speaking, I would affirm that Sola Scriptura and the sufficiency of Scripture stands.
Any thing after that, between God and a believer, would be strictly on a personal level (marriage, work, health, problems, ...), or again, an elucidation of Scripture. Not, a new revelation, which would be tantamount to an addition of Scripture (anethamized).

I respect your belief there because it's part of you, but I do not agree with it.

 

[mjrhealth]

I believe that God enlightens by bestowing His Spirit to the faithful. But, I don't believe that it will ever defy pre-established doctrines in Scripture

But that is you demanding God agree with the bible and not the bible agree with God, and that is how christians fight God, "you are wrong God because teh bible says". See it a lot here

 

[marksman]

From the Bible alone how do we know what is the Bible and what is not the Bible?

Unless I am mistaken what the bible is is what is in the bible and what the bible isn't is what is not in the bible. Is that too logical?

 

[theefaith]

If you cannot know the Bible by the sola of Bible alone then the sola is a false doctrine, and we can only rely on what the Bible actually provides which is the teaching authority of the apostles and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 Acts 8:31
Jn 8:32 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20
acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine, not in the Bible alone!

 

[Jane_Doe22]

If you cannot know the Bible by the sola of Bible alone then the sola is a false doctrine, and we can only rely on what the Bible actually provides which is the teaching authority of the apostles and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 Acts 8:31
Jn 8:32 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20
acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine, not in the Bible alone!

Or a person could ask God, rather than man’s opinions.

 

[amadeus]

Not everybody has all gifts of the Spirit, and not everyone is able to exercise such faith, which is undeniably required to have such communication with God. Thus, sometimes, just quoting verse and chapter should be enough to settle the majority of disputes.
But herein lies the problem, it is when one must appeal to the Holy Spirit in order to substantiate their position, because the wisdom eludes them, it is then that we know who the blasphemer is. If you can't articulate the profundity of a doctrine, without attempting to pull rank and asserting that the Holy Spirit guided you, then the Holy Spirit was nowhere near you.
Like I've always said, state your case with wisdom, make sure that it coincides with Scripture, and then let others tell you whether or not you were endowed with the Spirit.

There is always going to be someone here on this forum, or in the marketplace, or in the church house while we are still among carnal men someone, who is going to disagree and argue with us. Jesus was always right and He had the Word always from God and they called him a devil and rebuked him. Are we better than he is? Do men have to agree with us or to admit that they are wrong and that we are right? We might like for it to be so, but if we are really following His lead always, it is not going to be. Remember when Jesus hit them with some deep things, so deep that even his own followers were leaving him?

"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him." John 6:66

Jesus simply then asked the twelve, "...Will ye also go away?" John 6:67

Even Jesus, who knew all of the right answers knew that the best answer at times, God's answer, was silence!

We are to do as best we can to follow Him and to learn of Him and yet sometimes we will not know an answer and God is not telling us an answer.

Should we push forward when we do not know?

Should we push forward when we do know but God is not leading us?

 

[theefaith]

Ephesians 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

 

[DNB]

I find the logic behind the "sufficiency of scripture" paradigm to be extremely flawed, hence i cannot even address that question.


"Defying" versus "Continuing to speak and testify" are two completely different things. I don't believe in defiance, but I do passionately believe in continual testifying.


I respect your belief there because it's part of you, but I do not agree with it.

ok, thanks JD, interesting just to hear other perspectives and convictions.

 

[DNB]

But that is you demanding God agree with the bible and not the bible agree with God, and that is how christians fight God, "you are wrong God because teh bible says". See it a lot here

On the contrary, it is incumbent upon all Christians to understand Scripture in the light of it being God-Breathed. The obligation is to grasp what God is trying to impart and convey, and not be frivolous or reckless with one's interpretation. If one is able to articulate the wisdom behind their understanding, and bring glory to God in their theology, then chances are that they've rightly divided God's Word.
There has to be a standard and some guideline, otherwise it's just a free-for-all to discerning God's will, especially for salvation. The Gospel of Christ would never have been disclosed to modern man if it wasn't for Scripture, ...oral tradition would not have sufficed for various reasons.

 

[DNB]

There is always going to be someone here on this forum, or in the marketplace, or in the church house while we are still among carnal men someone, who is going to disagree and argue with us. Jesus was always right and He had the Word always from God and they called him a devil and rebuked him. Are we better than he is? Do men have to agree with us or to admit that they are wrong and that we are right? We might like for it to be so, but if we are really following His lead always, it is not going to be. Remember when Jesus hit them with some deep things, so deep that even his own followers were leaving him?

"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him." John 6:66

Jesus simply then asked the twelve, "...Will ye also go away?" John 6:67

Even Jesus, who knew all of the right answers knew that the best answer at times, God's answer, was silence!

We are to do as best we can to follow Him and to learn of Him and yet sometimes we will not know an answer and God is not telling us an answer.

Should we push forward when we do not know?

Should we push forward when we do know but God is not leading us?

Jesus constantly quoted Scripture. When asked what the most important rule for men to live by was, he quoted the shema from Scripture. When rebuking the devil, he quoted Scripture. When justifying his Messiaship, he quoted Scripture. Whenever he rebuked his detractors or disciples, he criticized their lack of understanding of the Scriptures.
The Holy Spirit helps us to understand Scripture, outside of assistance in personal issues, it never imparts to us any theology outside of Scripture.

 

[theefaith]

The Gospel of Christ would never have been disclosed if it wasn't for Scripture.

Have you never read the Bible? Matt 28:19 Lk 10;16 acts 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

 

[theefaith]

Ephesians 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
jude 1:3

 

[DNB]

The Gospel of Christ would never have been disclosed if it wasn't for Scripture.

Have you never read the Bible? Matt 28:19 Lk 10;16 acts 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

You were asked by @Jane_Doe22 to reply directly to a post, in order to make it clear to who and what you are referring to, which you agreed.
Yet, you haven't done it once since that time. I haphazardly happened to catch this post with a quote from myself.
You have yet to come out and just affirm what your position on the issue is? I'm very slowly gathering that you don't believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, the only source that leads men unto salvation?
Obviously, when the Bible was being written, it had to be transmitted in manner outside of itself, that goes without saying. Oral, manuscripts, lectures and teachings had to occur before these things were written down for posterity. As borders and societies grew, as heresies infiltrated the Church, as persecutions became more severe, the Word of God that leads unto salvation, had to be recorded in a hard-fast and consistent medium. Thus, just as God told Moses to write down the Law, as Joshua was instructed to do the same, as David and Solomon read from the Law to the people, as Josiah rekindled devotion to God by finding a copy of God's Word and reading it to the Judahites. As Ezra read and taught from the Word daily to the people of the restoration period.
The written Word is imperative to know God and His will, and to pay proper devotion to Him.