Once again a complete non-answer.
I do highly encourage you to find a real answer for yourself and further develop your relationship with Christ, @theefaith .
Good morning Jane
this forum is about apologetics
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Once again a complete non-answer.
I do highly encourage you to find a real answer for yourself and further develop your relationship with Christ, @theefaith .
Very much so.I know. (smile) Wouldn't you agree that truth is truth no matter what the source?
Yes. I look forward to hearing real answers from you when you find them. A deeper epistemology is so benefitail.Good morning Jane
this forum is about apologetics
Yes - that's a popular, albeit ignorant, anti-Catholic myth. Peter is the "Rock" in Matt. 16:18.Jesus did not grant authority to the Roman Catholic Church, or any other institution. This doctrine is diabolical. Jesus explicitly tells you that he has been granted all authority in heaven and on earth. The Roman Catholic Church has become a usurper. The Roman Catholic Church represents the deification of the institution. There is only one God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
In Matthew 16, Jesus establishes the apostles as the foundation of church he is building. The corner stone of that foundation is Peter's confession that Jesus is the Christ. This is the essential doctrine and all other doctrines follow from that. Peter has not been given authority to bind and loose. Peter has been granted to understand and disseminate information concerning what has already been bound and loosed. Jesus, not Peter actually holds the keys.
CLEARLY, you have perverted this passage also. This is absolutely about excommunication or it doesn't make ANY sense.In Matthew 18, Jesus instructs his disciples concerning those who claim to be a "brother." Even here, the task at hand is "identification", answering to the question, "Is this person a brother or not?" What is the purpose of such an investigation? Excommunication? No. Jesus tells Peter that we are to forgive them. He also teaches his disciples to treat a sinner as a "Gentile". But how do we treat Gentiles? We evangelize them.
BINGO.Luke 10:16 describes the role of an Apostle. Here we see that the Apostle is NOT acting on his own authority. Neither is he speaking for himself. Rather, an apostle whom Jesus sends is speaking for Jesus, relaying what Jesus had already taught.
John 16 describes the role of the Apostle in greater detail, adding that the 11 will be accompanied by "the spirit of truth", who will NOT speak on his own initiative. All through John's gospel, Jesus often repeats his claim that he does not speak on his own initiative, but he speaks the things the Father taught him.
John 12:49
For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.
Jesus speaks what the Father taught him; the apostles speak what Jesus taught them. The apostles speak to us in the Bible.
John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Without Peter and the apostles and their successors how can you obey Jesus?
matt 29:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Jesus gives His authority to Peter and the apostles and their successors!
Matt 28:19
He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20
We must be taught!
Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.
Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
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The obedience of faith!
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.
CadyandZoe and I have both asked you several times: "How do you know that the Catholic church is THE church? How do you know that the Bishop of Rome is an actual Bishop?"
Him claiming it means nothing -- many many of others claim that too. You like to make that comment about thousands of different denominations, but how do you know yours is correct? Tell us about your personal faith development, thoughtful searching, and direct relationship with Christ.
If your only answer is "well, I was born Catholic and they told me Catholic is the right faith and I've never honestly actually studied another view" ... well, I appreciate your honesty. But I would also encourage you to deepen your personal epistemology and testimony.
That's getting closer, but still quite a ways to go.Only one church was founded by Jesus Christ on Peter. Matt 16:18 all others are false sects started men apart from Christ and His authority! There is only one covenant. One body of Christ! One kingdom!
the four marks that you know which is the one true church! Only the Catholic Church can be the one true church founded by Christ on Peter!
one:
Holy:
Catholic:
Apostolic:
The talk is concerned with whether the Scriptures are adequate for issues of faith and doctrine. You argue from the scriptures, which seems to answer the question in the affirmative.Yes - that's a popular, albeit ignorant, anti-Catholic myth.
CLEARLY
I find nothing in the passage to suggest excommunication., you have perverted this passage also. This is absolutely about excommunication or it doesn't make ANY sense.
Who are you? Adam Schmitt? Your idiotic rendering of the passage was neither spoken nor implied by me.According to YOUR warped interpretation, Jesus fumbles the instruction by saying:
"Tell your brother his sin.
If he refuses to listen, take 2 or 3 witnesses with you and confront him
If he refuses to listen, tell the church.
If he doesn't listen to the church, that's fine because he is a brother."
That's an idiotic rendering of this passage.
First of all, an Apostle is not a Bishop. Second, you don't seem to understand Jesus' point. The authority doesn't rest in the messenger; it rests in the message. This is why he was emphatic when he said "I do not speak on my own initiative." This is why he says that the Spirit of truth does not speak on his own initiative. Jesus tells you that he speaks what the Father tells him to speak. And he tells you that the Spirit of truth speaks what Jesus has already spoken. The spoken word, which the Father has spoken, carries the authority.The Apostles/Bishops don't act on their OWN Authority - but on the Authority transferred to them by Christ Himself.
Correct. Jesus sent the 12 and Paul.John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
We have Peter and the Apostles in the New Testament.Without Peter and the apostles and their successors how can you obey Jesus?
matt 29:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
@CadyandZoe Jude indeed speaks of 'the faith once delivered to the saints' for which we earnestly contend.We have Peter and the Apostles in the New Testament.
Correct. Jesus sent the 12 and Paul.
And HOW do you know that the Catholic Church is those successors?with the same mission power and authority so they have authority to send successors! Jn 20:21 as the father sent me I send you, Lk 10:16 he who hears you hears me, we can only hear Jesus they the successors! And we obey
I'm sorry that I need to ask this but: @theefaith are you even a Christian?We must be taught, not read for yourself and make your own personal faith in a personal covenant me and Jesus
If you do believe, and you are a Christian, then please show me SOMETHING of your own faith development and relationship with Christ. Because I'm only seeing the opposite right now.Mk 16:16