Bible As Truth Vs. Intellectualism

[aspen]

[/color]
www.google.com
Copy and paste each one. That's all I did. I didn't make it up
Only a Catholic would make doctrine up



You missed my point. I don't care what the hell the RCC called him. It doesn't establish his salvation.

Yeah, about that - I am not going to run around the internet just to prove that you enjoy placing the Catholic church and catholics like Mother Teresa in a bad light.
So you've resorted to swearing now....
St. Therese was a women and I didn't miss your point, I simply chalked it up to more of your bitterness towards everything Catholic and decided not to acknowledge it - it has gotten pretty boring, lately

 

[TexUs]

Yeah, about that - I am not going to run around the internet just to prove that you enjoy placing the Catholic church and catholics like Mother Teresa in a bad light.

They put themselves in a bad light without any help from me, I assure you.

“In my own soul, I feel the terrible pain of this loss. I feel that God does not want me, that God is not God and that he does not really exist.” - From her diary

"“We never try to convert those who receive to Christianity but in our work we bear witness to the love of God’s presence and if Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, or agnostics become for this better men — simply better — we will be satisfied. It matters to the individual what church he belongs to. If that individual thinks and believes that this is the only way to God for her or him, this is the way God comes into their life — his life. If he does not know any other way and if he has no doubt so that he does not need to search then this is his way to salvation.” - From her book

I explained that I wanted to give them sisters, but the trouble was that, without a priest, without Jesus going with them, our sisters couldn't go anywhere - Worldwide Retreat for Priests in October 1984, in Paul VI Audience Hall, Vatican City


I love all religions. ... If people become better Hindus, better Muslims, better Buddhists by our acts of love, then there is something else growing there - Interview with Time Magazine, December 4, 1989

When the priest is there, then can we have our altar and our tabernacle and our Jesus. Only the priest put Jesus there for us. ... Jesus wants to go there, but we cannot bring him unless you first give him to us. This is why I love priests so much. We could never be what we are and do the things we do without you priests who first bring Jesus to us. - Same retreat mentioned above

"These people are waiting to die. What are you telling them to prepare them for death and eternity? She replied candidly, 'We tell them to pray to their Bhagwan, to their gods.'" - Same retreat mentioned above

So you've resorted to swearing now....

I don't see the word banned Biblically, on the contrary...

 

[aspen]

Texus - Mother Teresa was not perfect. She had a very basic theology that was grounded in Vatican I teachings (so they appear antiquated) which empathized the role of priests and service to the poor over proselytizing. Apparently, her cognitive understanding of theology was behind her willingness to serve with her heart and behavior, which, if you will remember, is why I brought her up in the first place. If you want to judge her Christianity by looking at her weak points - go ahead. I will look to her strengths and let God handle her weaknesses.

 

[Anastacia]

Texus - Mother Teresa was not perfect. She had a very basic theology that was grounded in Vatican I teachings (so they appear antiquated) which empathized the role of priests and service to the poor over p[font="arial][size="2"]roselytizing. Apparently, her cognitive understanding of theology was behind her willingness to serve with her heart and behavior, which, if you will remember, is why I brought her up in the first place. If you want to judge her Christianity by looking at her weak points - go ahead. I will look to her strengths and let God handle her weaknesses.[/size][/font]

Why are you afraid to read the article I gave a link to? Maybe it will help you see. If anything....maybe it will help you see what non Catholics see.


http://www.bereanbea...a_lost_soul.pdf


After reading the article...and if you don't like it or agree with it, I really want to hear why.

 

[Selene]

Texus - Mother Teresa was not perfect. She had a very basic theology that was grounded in Vatican I teachings (so they appear antiquated) which empathized the role of priests and service to the poor over p[font="arial][size="2"]roselytizing. Apparently, her cognitive understanding of theology was behind her willingness to serve with her heart and behavior, which, if you will remember, is why I brought her up in the first place. If you want to judge her Christianity by looking at her weak points - go ahead. I will look to her strengths and let God handle her weaknesses.[/size][/font]

I agree that she is not perfect. In fact, Mother Teresa even admits that she was a sinner. We are all not perfect and we are all sinners. Like her, we all have our weaknesses and we have our own doubts sometimes. What makes her amazing is that despite those doubts, she continued dedicating her life to helping the poor. She never gave in to those doubts. This reminds me of Job. Despite Job's suffering, he never gave in to his friends' advice.

 

[TexUs]

Texus - Mother Teresa was not perfect. She had a very basic theology that was grounded in Vatican I teachings (so they appear antiquated) which empathized the role of priests and service to the poor over p[font="arial][size="2"]roselytizing. Apparently, her cognitive understanding of theology was behind her willingness to serve with her heart and behavior, which, if you will remember, is why I brought her up in the first place. If you want to judge her Christianity by looking at her weak points - go ahead. I will look to her strengths and let God handle her weaknesses.[/size][/font]

The problem is not her theology, it's her belief.
Let's explore her quotes.

She doesn't believe a God exists. Then, who was Christ? Christ can't pardon sin if he's not a God... Salvation is futile and pointless, and in fact: sin isn't real if there's no God, it limits law to human law.
If she believed others can find a way to God through means other than Christ, why do you not suppose she thought she could do the same... with works?
She believed a priest was necessary to have our tabernacle, our Jesus, the priest must put him there? What happened to the all sovereign status of Christ, that he's dependent upon a priest? Once again, what's this say for his power over sin and death?
She thinks something good is "growing" in other religions? What happened to, "I am the way, the truth, and the light"? Would she peddle universalism if she didn't believe it?
The last statement I quoted should demonstrate to you how much she really believed IN Christ. If someone is on their deathbed, she tells them to pray to their gods, and doesn't share Christ with them? If she really believed in the work of Christ why would she not SHARE it with them!?!?!

I'm sorry but what you see as simple "theology" issues speaks to her beliefs and they are bigger than what you are trying to make them. Do the above statements represent a believer in Christ? I don't think so.

 

[aspen]

The problem is not her theology, it's her belief.
Let's explore her quotes.

She doesn't believe a God exists. Then, who was Christ? Christ can't pardon sin if he's not a God... Salvation is futile and pointless, and in fact: sin isn't real if there's no God, it limits law to human law.
If she believed others can find a way to God through means other than Christ, why do you not suppose she thought she could do the same... with works?
She believed a priest was necessary to have our tabernacle, our Jesus, the priest must put him there? What happened to the all sovereign status of Christ, that he's dependent upon a priest? Once again, what's this say for his power over sin and death?
She thinks something good is "growing" in other religions? What happened to, "I am the way, the truth, and the light"? Would she peddle universalism if she didn't believe it?
The last statement I quoted should demonstrate to you how much she really believed IN Christ. If someone is on their deathbed, she tells them to pray to their gods, and doesn't share Christ with them? If she really believed in the work of Christ why would she not SHARE it with them!?!?!

I'm sorry but what you see as simple "theology" issues speaks to her beliefs and they are bigger than what you are trying to make them. Do the above statements represent a believer in Christ? I don't think so.

Boy, I sure hope someone doesn't judge my belief in God based on a statement from my private diary, after I am dead.


Once again, MT was never considered a theologian. It is unfortunate that Protestants put so much emphasis on what believers 'think' about God.....I remember being Protestant and worrying about getting older and having a stroke or getting dementia because I might lose my faith based on my incapacity to read the Bible or remember who God is - how ridiculous is that? The fact is, God exists whether we believe it Him or not and He is faithful. MT was a sincere follower of Christ with a flawed theology - just like all of us - no one has a perfect image of who God is - far from it!


MT loved with her heart and action - she was certainly justified and sanctified during her lifetime - and I am sure her mind was caught up to speed as soon as God lovingly gazed upon her kneeling before His throne.

 

[TexUs]

The fact is, God exists whether we believe it Him or not and He is faithful.

You're right he exists, but he does not exist in a salvation sense unless you believe in Him- like it or not.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life- no one comes to the Father but through me". This does two things. 1) Only Christ. 2) The Father is real.

If you take either one from this passage, the salvation is not that of which Christ was presenting.

 

[aspen]

You're right he exists, but he does not exist in a salvation sense unless you believe in Him- like it or not.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life- no one comes to the Father but through me". This does two things. 1) Only Christ. 2) The Father is real.

If you take either one from this passage, the salvation is not that of which Christ was presenting.

Yep. And there is more than one way of loving. Unfortunately, you only place importance on the mind. Jesus did not - He told us:


Mark 12:33
To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”


Mind, heart, and action. MT had two of the three down - with spectacular results.

 

[TexUs]

In what way does it speak to "loving others" as a means of salvation? Doing the works of Christ without faith in Christ won't save you.


Do you not know John 3:16? That who BELIEVES in Christ?

I realize you need to defend anything the corrupted RCC leaders tell you to believe but get real, man, she's taken elements out of the salvation process SPELLED OUT BY CHRIST HIMSELF and created something new.

 

[aspen]

In what way does it speak to "loving others" as a means of salvation? Doing the works of Christ without faith in Christ won't save you.


Do you not know John 3:16? That who BELIEVES in Christ?

I realize you need to defend anything the corrupted RCC leaders tell you to believe but get real, man, she's taken elements out of the salvation process SPELLED OUT BY CHRIST HIMSELF and created something new.

Love is the gospel - it is the basis of a saving relationship with Christ. Her work (Christ working through her) was her heart / behavioral response to God. BELIEVING in Christ is more than knowing Christ in merely a cognitive sense.

 

[TexUs]

As usual you can't include any scriptural references. You've added to what the text says.

 

[aspen]

As usual you can't include any scriptural references. You've added to what the text says.

You want scripture? You rejected the last scriptural reference I posted - Mark 12:33. It clearly states that you can love God and neighbor in more than simply a cognitive manner - mind, heart. strength. Jesus states that it is a summary of the OT - which doesn't sound to wrathful to me.......


Indeed, a loving / sanctifying relationship with Jesus is the way to salvation. BTW, you can reference scripture without providing chapter and verse numbers, which are not inspired - Jesus and Paul didn't have these references and they did just fine.

 

[TexUs]

It clearly states that you can love God and neighbor in more than simply a cognitive manner - mind, heart. strength.

Yes, love God fully.
Is loving God... denying he exists?
If she denies God exists, then who was Christ? To deny the Father is to deny the Son, the sole source of salvation, how is deny that love?
Is loving God... not trusting his promise of salvation and instead maintaining salvation via works?
Is loving God... denying his deity by believing the priest must present him?
Is loving God... promoting a universalism contrary to the work of his son?
Is loving God... refusing to share his love with others on their deathbed?

 

[aspen]

[/color]
Yes, love God fully.
Is loving God... denying he exists?
If she denies God exists, then who was Christ? To deny the Father is to deny the Son, the sole source of salvation, how is deny that love?
Is loving God... not trusting his promise of salvation and instead maintaining salvation via works?
Is loving God... denying his deity by believing the priest must present him?
Is loving God... promoting a universalism contrary to the work of his son?
Is loving God... refusing to share his love with others on their deathbed?

She had doubts - you are summing up her whole life and work into a couple of ideas in her personal diary
Give me a break! She didn't write a whole book about like Solomon did....good grief


I already addressed the other points

 

[TexUs]

Answer the questions. Are those things loving God or not?
You've avoided the questions I've asked about the quotes and now the ones I'm asking about God's love.

 

[aspen]

None of your questions reflect what MT is talking about or what she believes. You evaluated what you think she is doing, set up a straw-man and now want me to help you tear it down.

No thanks...

Also, I never said I agreed with her theology - her heart and behavior is why she is remembered - who are you to say that they are not acceptable to God. I've already conceded that her cognitive understanding of God is lacking.

 

[TexUs]

You act like these statements came from me, she made them herself.

Ask yourself:Is loving God... denying he exists?
If she denies God exists, then who was Christ? To deny the Father is to deny the Son, the sole source of salvation, how is deny that love?
Is loving God... not trusting his promise of salvation and instead maintaining salvation via works?
Is loving God... denying his deity by believing the priest must present him?
Is loving God... promoting a universalism contrary to the work of his son?
Is loving God... refusing to share his love with others on their deathbed?


Here's a hint: The answer to this is in the first question. She can't love someone she doesn't believe in.

 

[aspen]

You act like these statements came from me, she made them herself.

Ask yourself:[font="tahoma][color="#000080"]Is loving God... denying he exists?
If she denies God exists, then who was Christ? To deny the Father is to deny the Son, the sole source of salvation, how is deny that love?
Is loving God... not trusting his promise of salvation and instead maintaining salvation via works?
Is loving God... denying his deity by believing the priest must present him?
Is loving God... promoting a universalism contrary to the work of his son?
Is loving God... refusing to share his love with others on their deathbed?[/font][/color]
[font="tahoma] [/font][/color]
Here's a hint: The answer to this is in the first question. She can't love someone she doesn't believe in.
[/quote]

[color="#000080"]5. Do not bother reading posts or listening to responses from your opponent: After all, reading your opponent's posts may ignite emotions within yourself, or take your mind off your primary goal, winning. Instead of reading, skim your opponent's post for statements that can be molded to aid you in your ultimate goal. The best statements are usually the most irrelevant to your opponent's point - why re-post something meaningful or relevant? Oh, and make sure you continue to apply the steady drumbeat of either mocking / moral superiority, or sarcastic humor.

 

[Anastacia]

Love is the gospel - it is the basis of a saving relationship with Christ. Her work (Christ working through her) was her heart / behavioral response to God. BELIEVING in Christ is more than knowing Christ in merely a cognitive sense.

You say "believing in Christ is more than knowing Christ..." what you say there is against the Word of God. Jesus Christ is the Truth. If you don't know the Truth....then you don't know Jesus Christ. We are warned in the Bible not to accept another Jesus! Mother Teresa accepted another Jesus. The Catholic religion teaches another Jesus.



2 Corinthians 11:4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

Galatians 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— [sup]7[/sup] which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. [sup]8[/sup] But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! [sup]9[/sup] As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse! [sup]10[/sup] Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.

None of your questions reflect what MT is talking about or what she believes. You evaluated what you think she is doing, set up a straw-man and now want me to help you tear it down.

No thanks...

Also, I never said I agreed with her theology - her heart and behavior is why she is remembered - who are you to say that they are not acceptable to God. I've already conceded that her cognitive understanding of God is lacking.

Mother Teresa"s "cognitive understanding of God is lacking," you say? She was a nun to the Catholic church! She is going to be canonized by the Catholic church! The whole Catholic religion's cognitive understanding of God is lacking! Just alone the fact that the Catholic church has a pope is against the Word of God. Do I need to go down the very big list of unbiblical doctrine from the Catholic religion?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches against the Word of God. Read here what the Catechism says....

“In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they have attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body.”[sup]31

[/sup]In total contrast, Scripture declares that all our righteous deeds are as filthy rags.[sup]32 [/sup]Working for one’s own salvation, and the salvation of others, is explicitly ruled out by the Word of God. Grace, in Scripture, is shown to be absolutely God’s gift, “

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”[sup]33
[/sup]