Bible As Truth Vs. Intellectualism

[veteran]

Just to bring to the attention of some of why our Lord Jesus said what He did on the cross, it was not about any idea of His feeling doubt. Our Lord Jesus was teaching when He said that...

Ps 22:1
1 My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? why art Thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus was quoting directly from Psalms 22, which was given through His servant David. Ps.22 gives detailed events of Christ's crucifixion, through David.

If anyone was showing doubt and weakness there, it was David in Ps.22 where that was written. Our Lord Jesus was thus teaching about the prophecy of His crucifixion being fulfilled even while upon His cross, pointing us back to Ps.22 to show how at that moment the prophecy given about 1,000 years before through David was being fulfilled right before Israel's eyes.

 

[Selene]

Just to bring to the attention of some of why our Lord Jesus said what He did on the cross, it was not about any idea of His feeling doubt. Our Lord Jesus was teaching when He said that...

Ps 22:1
1 My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? why art Thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus was quoting directly from Psalms 22, which was given through His servant David. Ps.22 gives detailed events of Christ's crucifixion, through David.

If anyone was showing doubt and weakness there, it was David in Ps.22 where that was written. Our Lord Jesus was thus teaching about the prophecy of His crucifixion being fulfilled even while upon His cross, pointing us back to Ps.22 to show how at that moment the prophecy given about 1,000 years before through David was being fulfilled right before Israel's eyes.

Hello Veteran,

Yes, I know about that. It is actually written in the footnotes of the Jerusalem Bible. Christ was pointing to Psalms 22 because he was showing that the prophecy is being fulfilled. I was showing Anastacia that sometimes what a person says cannot be seen what is in his/her heart. When Christ said "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me," people can easily say that Christ doubted because of His words at the cross. In the same way, what Mother Teresa says or writes in her diary can also be different from what is in her heart, which only God can see. As I pointed out to TexUs, if she really felt what she wrote, then she would have given up helping the poor because in the first place she did what she did for God and not for herself. Only God knows what is in the heart of the person. That was what I stated in my previous post about Mother Teresa: A person's actions says more than his/her words. This is what I posted in Post #64:

She was doing Christ's work. A lot of people can say and write a lot of things in their diary, but their actions speaks more. If she truely believe that God no longer exists, then she would stop helping the poor. Why? Because she did what she did for God, not for herself. The fact that she continued to do what she was doing speaks more than what she wrote. Like I said, at the cross, even Jesus said, "My God, my God, why hast thou abandoned me." So, at the cross, Jesus said that God abandoned Him. During the last years of her life, Mother Teresa also heard the silence and wondered why God left her.

But they did not see nor understand. Before this post, I even posted under the same thread that God did not abandoned Jesus. But they did not see nor understand.

In Christ,
Selene

 

[Anastacia]

Hello Veteran,

Yes, I know about that. It is actually written in the footnotes of the Jerusalem Bible. Christ was pointing to Psalms 22 because he was showing that the prophecy is being fulfilled. I was showing Anastacia that sometimes what a person says cannot be seen what is in his/her heart. When Christ said "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me," people can easily say that Christ doubted because of His words at the cross. In the same way, what Mother Teresa says or writes in her diary can also be different from what is in her heart, which only God can see. As I pointed out to TexUs, if she really felt what she wrote, then she would have given up helping the poor because in the first place she did what she did for God and not for herself. Only God knows what is in the heart of the person. That was what I stated in my previous post about Mother Teresa: A person's actions says more than his/her words.

In Christ,
Selene

Mother Teresa wrote down what was in her heart! Now you are denying the words of Mother Teresa?

You should stop staying why Jesus said what he did on the cross. Jesus did not doubt God!!!




Read this and learn something. Read full article at: http://www.the-highway.com/passionofchrist_Bennett.html

True meaning of the Cross as revealed in God’s Written Word

Scripture makes clear that the meaning of Christ’s crucifixion lay not in His physical suffering, but in His propitiation of the wrath of God.[sup]15[/sup] God’s wrath was utterly placed on Christ Jesus, who suffered the full extent of its unabated curse for the sins for His people. The fullness of divine wrath that Christ suffered was like that fire from heaven, recorded in the Old Testament, which consumed the sacrifices. The wrath that should have fallen upon the sinner, had God not been appeased, fell upon Him. He uttered the loud cry, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”[sup]16[/sup] The representative relationship of Christ to His people is a real and necessary one. The All Holy God deemed it just to punish Christ for the sins of His people, and to credit them with His righteousness, and thus completely satisfy all the demands of His law upon them. Why was Christ’s perfect life followed by the most terrible punishment? Strict substitution demanded it so that real imputation of His righteousness to His own people could follow. Rather than the physical torture He suffered, the absolute horror that Christ endured was separation from His Father. In His Spirit, He felt the full wrath of God. The Apostle Paul explained it precisely, “For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.”[sup]17[/sup]Christ Jesus was “made sin” for His people. The wrath of God’s holiness flamed against Him. He was the sin offering, the sacrifice for sin. “It pleased the Lord to bruise him; He hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin.”[sup]18[/sup] He was personally All Holy; yet as the substitute for His own, He rendered Himself legally responsible before the judgment of God. The consequence of Christ’s faithfulness in all that He did culminated in His death on the cross and in His resurrection that followed. His righteousness is credited to the believer, “even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe.”[sup]19[/sup] It was God who legally constituted Christ to be “sin for us.” He was “made sin” because the sins of His people were transferred to Him, and in like manner, the believer is made “the righteousness of God in Him” by God’s reckoning to the believer Christ’s faithfulness to the precepts of the law. Quite clearly therefore, justification, the Gospel message, is the gracious act of God whereby a believing sinner has forgiveness of sin and legal right standing in Christ. As Christ, who knew no sin of His own, was made sin for believers, so they, who have no righteousness of their own, are made the righteousness of God in Him. It is of extreme importance that this entire biblical Gospel message is missing from the movie, and that in its place is given the traditional Catholic faith of Mel Gibson, and Jim Caviezel, who stars as Christ.

 

[Selene]

Mother Teresa wrote down what was in her heart! Now you are denying the words of Mother Teresa?

You should stop staying why Jesus said what he did on the cross. Jesus did not doubt God!!!

I already explained my position to Veteran.

 

[Anastacia]

I already explained my position to Veteran.

You deny Mother Teresa's own words! You say why she didn't stop doing what she did, but you don't believe her what she says why she stayed a nun!!! You are speaking against the words of Mother Teresa---the words of Mother Teresa about herself!

 

[Selene]

You deny Mother Teresa's own words! You say why she didn't stop doing what she did, but you don't believe her what she says why she stayed a nun!!! You are speaking against the words of Mother Teresa---the words of Mother Teresa about herself!

No, I said that what she wrote does not reflect what she did. I said that her actions spoke much louder than her words.

 

[TexUs]

No, I said that what she wrote does not reflect what she did. I said that her actions spoke much louder than her words.

So, you're saying she didn't mean what she wrote, which is exactly as A says... You're denying what she said.

Just think about this. When she's denying the faith in her PERSONAL writings... But continues to do good to people, what's that tell you?
That perhaps, she believes if she can uphold personal appearances of "good", she can gain interest to heaven, "just in case"?
That perhaps, she doesn't want to lose her reputation?
That perhaps, it's what she's always done and it's just a part of her? Remember- even the damned can do good to others on earth.

With all due respect, Hammerstone.....I'm defending myself and not tit for tatting. I see you didn't delete aspen's last post to me after I requested. I wouldn't have to defend myself and get accused of tit for tating if the rules were enforced better. Being a righteous judge (moderator) isn't about calling us all the same. If this post I write gets me banned from this site, then so be it.

100% agree...
Freedom in discussion is one thing but I've seen the rules not enforced many times.
There's been folks preach of "If you still sin at all, you're not a Christian and going to hell".
There's been folks deny Biblical teachings because it's "of human origin". In this case it's even expressly stated in the forum rules but it's allowed to continue.
I've reported all of these so it's not like they're flying under the radar.

I guess if there's no intentions to report them, can we at least have a re-write of the rules to where we can actually know what is and isn't acceptable, what is and won't be enforced?

I often wonder what needs to be said to be prevented from posting again, "All Hail Satan"???

I'm with Anatacia on this one, maybe critiquing HammerStone will get me banned, and so be it, but I concur that the rules as written aren't being enforced.
Would God be a just God if he didn't punish acts contrary to his rules? How can one be a just admin/moderator if you don't do the same to your rules?

 

[Duckybill]

A simple example would be evolution vs literal six day creation.

Exodus 20:11 (NKJV)
[sup]11 [/sup]For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.

A lot of 'Christians' choose evolution.

 

[Selene]

So, you're saying she didn't mean what she wrote, which is exactly as A says... You're denying what she said.

There is a very big difference between "denying what she wrote or said" and "her actions spoke more than her words." The two are not the same at all.

 

[TexUs]

There is a very big difference between "denying what she wrote or said" and "her actions spoke more than her words." The two are not the same at all.

So I can speak against God, reject him, and as long as I serve at the soup kitchen five times a week I'll be saved?
I don't know what kind of Gospel you're peddling but please don't call it Christianity.

 

[Selene]

So I can speak against God, reject him, and as long as I serve at the soup kitchen five times a week I'll be saved?
I don't know what kind of Gospel you're peddling but please don't call it Christianity.

TexUs, have you been reading any of my posts? I DID say that there is a difference between "human good works" and "the Holy Spirit working in a person."

An example of "human good works" is when Bill Gates donated millions of dollars to build a hospital for the children in South Africa. An example of having the "Holy Spirit in a person" is when someone who owns absolutely NOTHING was able to build hundreds of orphanges, hospices, and shelters around the world to help the poor, the orphan, and the sick. This is what Mother Teresa had done. That is NOT "human good works." This is how we know the Holy Spirit is working in the person. When the Holy Spirit is in a person, the Holy Spirit moves to perform incredible things which seems impossible. To you, it looks like "human good works," but to us, we can see the difference. How many people do you know owns absolutely nothing and yet is able to build hundreds of orphanages, hospices, and shelters around the world?????

As Scripture says:

John 14:12 Otherwise believe for the very works' sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do.

My brother, you need to read her entire letters and diary before you judge her. In her diary, Mother Teresa wrote, "In my soul, I feel just the terrible pain of loss, of God not wanting me, of God not being God, of God not really existing." Then in another, she wrote that she wanted to love God "like he has not been loved," and yet she felt her love was not reciprocated. In her diary, Mother Teresa wrote that she heard God's voice calling her, and she did everything that was commanded of her. Then suddenly the voice was gone. That was the loss she was referring to when she said that in her soul, "she felt a terrible pain of loss." She no longer heard the voice, and she wanted to hear that voice again. What Mother Teresa went through are signs of holiness because we recognized the same thing in other saints such as St. John of the cross. He went through the same experience as she did.

 

[TexUs]

Ahh, ok, so now you've developed a magical formula to track the Spirit, even though Jesus himself said it can't be done?

The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

 

[Selene]

Ahh, ok, so now you've developed a magical formula to track the Spirit, even though Jesus himself said it can't be done?

The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

Actually, Jesus said it can be done. It is right there in Scripture:

John 14:12 Otherwise believe for the very works' sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do.

So, how many people do you know who owns absolutely NOTHING and was able to build hundreds of orphanages, hospices, and shelters around the world?

 

[TexUs]

How many people do you know owns absolutely nothing and yet is able to build hundreds of orphanages, hospices, and shelters around the world?????

Your flaw in this logic is that she built them herself
You should change your question to, "How many people do you know can raise money and awareness for a project" and the results would obviously be countless and also secular in nature.

Actually, Jesus said it can be done. It is right there in Scripture:

John 14:12 Otherwise believe for the very works' sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do.

Please stop quoting scripture without thinking it through.

Again- people can do the works Christ did and not know him. Read Matthew 5.

 

[Selene]

Your flaw in this logic is that she built them herself
You should change your question to, "How many people do you know can raise money and awareness for a project" and the results would obviously be countless and also secular in nature.


Please stop quoting scripture without thinking it through.

Again- people can do the works Christ did and not know him. Read Matthew 5.

Oh really? So name me ONE person who did the same as what Mother Teresa did. Mother Teresa was only one person who had no money. Mother Teresa built orphanages, hospices, and shelters around the world in different countries. No government was able to do that, and governments usually have a lot of backings. Governments usually help their own people. Even Bill Gates, with all the money he had was not able to do that. The reason the media went after Mother Teresa was because the Holy Spirit accomplished in her what no one else and no government ever did.

 

[TexUs]

Oh really? So name me ONE person who did the same as what Mother Teresa did. Mother Teresa was only one person who had no money. Mother Teresa built orphanages, hospices, and shelters around the world in different countries. No government was able to do that, and governments usually have a lot of backings. Governments usually help their own people. Even Bill Gates, with all the money he had was not able to do that. The reason the media went after Mother Teresa was because the Holy Spirit accomplished in her what no one else and no government ever did.

I'm guessing since Bill Gates runs the biggest transparent charity organization on earth and the $28B he's spent on vaccinations, financial education, increasing the world's supply of rice by 70%, Save the Children, World Vision, and education counts as "not able to do" what MT did? LOL- know your facts.



I tried to look up what she had opened and founded of her own accord and can't find anything. You have any facts? All I can find is she started an organization (not building buildings) and other people's finances grew it.


I did come across this interesting tidbit:

MT was not a friend of the poor. She was a friend of poverty. She said that suffering was a gift from God. She spent her life opposing the only known cure for poverty, which is the empowerment of women and the emancipation of them from a livestock version of compulsory reproduction. And she was a friend to the worst of the rich, taking misappropriated money from the atrocious Duvalier family in Haiti (whose rule she praised in return) and from Charles Keating of the Lincoln Savings and Loan. Where did that money, and all the other donations, go? The primitive hospice in Calcutta was as run down when she died as it always had been—she preferred California clinics when she got sick herself—and her order always refused to publish any audit. But we have her own claim that she opened 500 convents in more than a hundred countries, all bearing the name of her own order. Excuse me, but this is modesty and humility?

I also found out some info on who she received donations from (I thought SHE did it??? Apparently, exactly as I said, all she did was a voice for the cause). She received and praised donations from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Duvalier who ran Haiti on a purged military, militia, personality cult, and the practice of voodoo.
She also accepted millions from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Keating who championed the Keating Five scandal and still supported him after conviction. The police chief asked her to give back the fraudulent money to the people he stole from and she refused.


Does this sound like someone filled with the Holy Spirit? That accepts dirty money that has wronged others, refuses to return it, so she can further who's kingdom? Her own?!?!


Doesn't stop there. Apparently she didn't care much about solving poverty. Indeed she thought suffering brought people closer to Jesus:

hear the screams of people having maggots tweezered from their open wounds without pain relief. On principle, strong painkillers are even in hard cases not given. According to Mother Teresa's bizarre philosophy, it is ‘the most beautiful gift for a person that he can participate in the sufferings of Christ’.

Again, does this sound like someone filled with the Holy Spirit? I think not.

 

[Selene]

I'm guessing since Bill Gates runs the biggest transparent charity organization on earth and the $28B he's spent on vaccinations, financial education, increasing the world's supply of rice by 70%, Save the Children, World Vision, and education counts as "not able to do" what MT did? LOL- know your facts.

In the first place, Mother Teresa did not own any money. Mother Teresa's Missionaries of Charity, which began as a small Order with 12 members in Calcutta, today has more than 4,000 nuns running orphanages, AIDS hospices, charity centres worldwide, and caring for refugees, the blind, disabled, aged, alcoholics, the poor and homeless and victims of floods, epidemics and famine in Asia, Africa, latin America, North America, Poland, and Australia. They continued to expand, and at the time of her death it was operating 610 missions in 123 countries, including hospices and homes for people with HIV/AIDS, leprosy and tuberculosis, soup kitchens, children's and family counselling programs, orphanages, and schools. The Missionaries of Charity were also aided by Co-Workers, who numbered over 1 million by the 1990s. These are facts. And the miracle about this is that she did not have Bill Gates' money.

As for Bill Gates, his money went into research and programs. He donated a grand total of US$287 million to various HIV/AIDS researchers. The money was split between sixteen different research teams across the world, on the condition that they share their findings with one another. Bill Gate's Foundation has been organized into four divisions, including core operations (public relations, finance and administration, human resources, etc.) under Chief Operating Officer Cheryl Scott and three grant-making programs: Global Health Progam, Global Development Program, and the United States Program. To put it simply, all he did was donate money to programs and researches.

Furthermore, reports have found that the Gates' have invested in companies that have been criticized for worsening poverty in the same developing countries where the Foundation is attempting to relieve poverty.These include companies that pollute heavily and pharmaceutical companies that do not sell into the developing world. In response to press criticism, the foundation announced in 2007 a review of its investments to assess social responsibility. It subsequently cancelled the review and stood by its policy of investing for maximum return, while using voting rights to influence company practices In a January/February 2007 Foreign Affairs article, Laurie Garrett claims that many charitable organizations, among whom the Gates Foundation is prominent, harmed global health by diverting resources from other important local health care services. For example, by paying relatively high salaries at AIDS clinics, the foundation diverts medical professionals from other parts of developing nations' health care systems; the health care systems' ability to provide care diminishes (except in the area the foundation funds) and the charities may do more harm than good. Similar findings were reported in a December 2007 Los Angeles Times investigation.

I also found out some info on who she received donations from (I thought SHE did it??? Apparently, exactly as I said, all she did was a voice for the cause). She received and praised donations from http://en.wikipedia....%A7ois_Duvalier who ran Haiti on a purged military, militia, personality cult, and the practice of voodoo.

She also accepted millions from http://en.wikipedia....Charles_Keating who championed the Keating Five scandal and still supported him after conviction. The police chief asked her to give back the fraudulent money to the people he stole from and she refused.


Does this sound like someone filled with the Holy Spirit? That accepts dirty money that has wronged others, refuses to return it, so she can further who's kingdom? Her own?!?!

Actually, it sounded more like the news article that you posted of the Pope's speech taken out of context. By the way, those information about Charles Keating were taken from a book written by Hitchen's, who is an atheist who hates all religion. Hitchen claims that Mother Teresa stole money, but he never produced any evidence of it. He simply just make accusations. If he really believed that Mother Teresa committed a crime and has evidence for it, one then wonders why he never went to the police to give this evidence. Instead, he wrote a book about it and got rich from it.

 

[TexUs]

And the miracle about this is that she did not have Bill Gates' money.

Yeah, she just used a multitude of other people's money.
Six of one half a dozen of the other.

To put it simply, all he did was donate money to programs and researches.

And that research lead to more efficient methods to grow rice which resulted in a 70% increase of rice production worldwide.
You can't vaccinate people without finding a cure first, can you?

Are you really arguing against research? Please....

Furthermore, reports have found that the Gates' have invested in companies that have been criticized for worsening poverty in the same developing countries where the Foundation is attempting to relieve poverty.

Yes. They invest their endowment in the market (let's say, they invest in WalMart). They make more money to give away, but WalMart is polluting the air.


It's really a lose-lose, put yourself in their situation.


Let's say you have money sitting in an account. Either you could hold onto it, and it lose money (inflation at work). Or you could invest it, and make money- but by doing so you indirectly fund pollution, etc.
The first way, your money helps people: but not as much as it could.
The second way, your money goes even farther to help even more people, but... It might cause pollution.


Which do you do? Again, it's lose-lose. Try to get more money to help people with and fund pollution, or knowingly help less people and not fund pollution.


I'm not claiming Bill Gates is a Christian. The argument isn't about Bill Gates. I was simply addressing your ignorant claim that he hasn't done anything.




You have ignored everything I presented about MT though.
Once more, does accepting money used in schemes of fraud and refusing to give it back to the people he stole it from: bear the mark of the Holy Spirit?
Does accepting money from an evil voodoo dictator trying to buy his way into heaven, bear the mark of the Holy Spirit?
Does opening more convents in HER name and not improving medical services, bear the mark of the Holy Spirit?




Or does this all bear the mark of a self-glorifying woman who was trying to make herself a good worldly image?

 

[Selene]

You have ignored everything I presented about MT though.
Once more, does accepting money used in schemes of fraud and refusing to give it back to the people he stole it from: bear the mark of the Holy Spirit?
Does accepting money from an evil voodoo dictator trying to buy his way into heaven, bear the mark of the Holy Spirit?
Does opening more convents in HER name and not improving medical services, bear the mark of the Holy Spirit?

I did not ignore it. Most of that information came from Hitchen's book. Hitchens is an atheist who hates all Christians and all religions. In his book, he claimed that Mother Teresa stole money, but he never produced any evidence of it. If he really had concrete evidence that Mother Teresa committed a crime, he would have reported it to the police. Instead, he wrote a book about it and got rich from it.

 

[Selene]

Below is a weblink about Christopher Hitchens and all his allegations about Mother Teresa. Notice that in his book, he accuses Mother Teresa of theft, but no evidence is produced. He did not even go to the police and report it. Instead, he wrote a book and got rich off it. All the information you are getting is from Hitchen's book. Hitchens is an atheist who hates all Christian - including you. It does not matter to him whether you are Catholic, Protestant, or even a Buddhist. He hates all religion. He not only wrote a book filled with allegations against Mother Teresa, but he also wrote a book against all of Christianity.

http://www.catholicleague.org/research/hating_mother_teresa.htm