Bible Problem

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Netchaplain

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Which translation of the Bible do you use? Many are unaware that the manuscripts used for the modern translations are highly spurious, because of the numerous differences between them and the Traditional Text (TT). The manuscripts used for the TT (Majority Text, or Textus Receptus, or Received Text) are much latter (5 century and latter) than those used for the modern translations (MT). The MT manuscripts were not used for copying purposes like those of the TT, because they had too many errors and therefore were rejected and did not wear out. This is what allowed the modern text to gain much ascendancy in popularity, due to their antiquity (3-4th century). As there are many differences between the manuscripts use for the MT, due to omissions, transpositions and interpolations, the early church would not use them (Vaticanus, Sinaticus and Alexandrinus).

What we have today now is that there are so many differences in these modern translations that attempting to memorize Scripture is impossible; and you can’t use a concordance with them because of the above problems stated. This produces a much less significant text that many do not know which should be followed, and thus the usual response is not reading them very much.

In the Hebrew text there are no manuscripts that contain the phrase “the brother of” in 2Sam 21:19. But instead of adding this phrase to make it a truthful reading, the MT’s have omitted it as well, making it an errant reading. Thus, it should read “Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath.” But the MT has it “Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew Goliath,” making it an errant reading in conflict with 1Chron 20:5, which states that “Elhanan the son of Jair struck down Lahmi the brother of Goliath” (the NIV had this omission until correcting it recently).

In David Fuller’s book ”Which Bible,” he states that in the winter of 1928 there was a prominent publication company that had a newspaper come out saying “Who Killed Goliath.” He continues to say that “a cablegram came from the most learned and devout scholars of the Church of England” and they “said in substance, that the Revised Version was correct, that Elhanan and not David killed Goliath; and that there were many other things in the Bible which were the product of exaggeration, such as the story of Noah and the ark, Jonah and the whale, the garden of Eden and the longevity of Methuselah.”

The Three manuscripts mentioned above are pretty much the ones these detractors use for their translations (compared to thousands of manuscripts used for the TT). The Vaticanus was found on a shelf in the Vatican library, which was there unused for 1500 years; the Sinaticus was found at monastery, where a monk was using some of the parchments for kindling to get a fire started. Both of these codexes are the oldest manuscripts (3rd century), and this is why they are given too much attention.

A greater harm these MT’s produce is from their omitting Scripture. For one of hundreds of examples, they omitted the entire passage of 1Jn 5:7, which is the primary Trinity doctrine.

Hope this is enough to get others interested in this problem, and I have a great deal more omissions to share on this if you are interested, just let me know.

God bless and always guide us to truth!

NC
 
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Jim B

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Which translation of the Bible do you use? Many are unaware that the manuscripts used for the modern translations are highly spurious, because of the numerous differences between them and the Traditional Text (TT). The manuscripts used for the TT (Majority Text, or Textus Receptus, or Received Text) are much latter (5 century and latter) than those used for the modern translations (MT). The MT manuscripts were not used for copying purposes like those of the TT, because they had too many errors and therefore were rejected and did not wear out. This is what allowed the modern text to gain much ascendancy in popularity, due to their antiquity (3-4th century). As there are many differences between the manuscripts use for the MT, due to omissions, transpositions and interpolations, the early church would not use them (Vaticanus, Sinaticus and Alexandrinus).

What we have today now is that there are so many differences in these modern translations that attempting to memorize Scripture is impossible; and you can’t use a concordance with them because of the above problems stated. This produces a much less significant text that many do not know which should be followed, and thus the usual response is not reading them very much.

In the Hebrew text there are no manuscripts that contain the phrase “the brother of” in 2Sam 21:19. But instead of adding this phrase to make it a truthful reading, the MT’s have omitted it as well, making it an errant reading. Thus, it should read “Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath.” But the MT has it “Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew Goliath,” making it an errant reading in conflict with 1Chron 20:5, which states that “Elhanan the son of Jair struck down Lahmi the brother of Goliath” (the NIV had this omission until correcting it recently).

In David Fuller’s book ”Which Bible,” he states that in the winter of 1928 there was a prominent publication company that had a newspaper come out saying “Who Killed Goliath.” He continues to say that “a cablegram came from the most learned and devout scholars of the Church of England” and they “said in substance, that the Revised Version was correct, that Elhanan and not David killed Goliath; and that there were many other things in the Bible which were the product of exaggeration, such as the story of Noah and the ark, Jonah and the whale, the garden of Eden and the longevity of Methuselah.”

The Three manuscripts mentioned above are pretty much the ones these detractors use for their translations (compared to thousands of manuscripts used for the TT). The Vaticanus was found on a shelf in the Vatican library, which was there unused for 1500 years; the Sinaticus was found at monastery, where a monk was using some of the parchments for kindling to get a fire started. Both of these codexes are the oldest manuscripts (3rd century), and this is why they are given too much attention.

A greater harm these MT’s produce is from their omitting Scripture. For one of hundreds of examples, they omitted the entire passage of 1Jn 5:7, which is the primary Trinity doctrine.

Hope this is enough to get others interested in this problem, and I have a great deal more omissions to share on this if you are interested, just let me know.

God bless and always guide us to truth!

NC
Most modern translations are based on the best source documents that have been discovered to date, along with other documents of the time that clarify the ancient languages. The art/science of textual criticism has likewise advanced, insuring that the basis for the translations are as accurate as possible. And of course, the purpose of any translation is to give the reader the clearest understanding of what the authors (and copyists) intended the meaning to be, insuring that we understand the text in a similar fashion to the original hearers. And also very important, the English language is constantly changing, so words and phrases are understood differently than they were previously. Some consider this as stating gender incorrectly. adelphoi used to be translated in the masculine, whereas modern translations render the word as "men and women". Similar as saying to a group of men and women, "where do you guys want to go now?". Now it means males only; it is clearer to say "where do you all want to go", meaning both genders.

Of course, some people claim that as caving in to gender inclusiveness, but that doesn't mean they are correct. I rely on the committees of scholars to give us the best, most accurate translations in the clearest possible language. They have done an excellent job!
 

Davy

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Most modern translations are based on the best source documents that have been discovered to date, along with other documents of the time that clarify the ancient languages. The art/science of textual criticism has likewise advanced, insuring that the basis for the translations are as accurate as possible. And of course, the purpose of any translation is to give the reader the clearest understanding of what the authors (and copyists) intended the meaning to be, insuring that we understand the text in a similar fashion to the original hearers. And also very important, the English language is constantly changing, so words and phrases are understood differently than they were previously. Some consider this as stating gender incorrectly. adelphoi used to be translated in the masculine, whereas modern translations render the word as "men and women". Similar as saying to a group of men and women, "where do you guys want to go now?". Now it means males only; it is clearer to say "where do you all want to go", meaning both genders.

Of course, some people claim that as caving in to gender inclusiveness, but that doesn't mean they are correct. I rely on the committees of scholars to give us the best, most accurate translations in the clearest possible language. They have done an excellent job!
PROPAGANDA ABOVE -- be warned Brethren in Christ.

The original poster is correct; the Codex Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, and Alexandrian text do not show wide usage like the Traditional Text (Majority Text = thousands of Greek manuscripts of The New Testament).

The 1800's British scholars Wescott and Hort even created a NEW GREEK NEW TESTAMENT TEXT that they translated from Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, and secretly presented their new Greek translation to the revision committee which makes up part of ALL... modern NT Bibles today.

So "Biblical Criticism" ideas, my eye! Their revisions are nothing but propaganda against the Traditional New Testament Bible texts.
 

Netchaplain

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Most modern translations are based on the best source documents that have been discovered to date, along with other documents of the time that clarify the ancient languages. The art/science of textual criticism has likewise advanced, insuring that the basis for the translations are as accurate as possible. And of course, the purpose of any translation is to give the reader the clearest understanding of what the authors (and copyists) intended the meaning to be, insuring that we understand the text in a similar fashion to the original hearers. And also very important, the English language is constantly changing, so words and phrases are understood differently than they were previously. Some consider this as stating gender incorrectly. adelphoi used to be translated in the masculine, whereas modern translations render the word as "men and women". Similar as saying to a group of men and women, "where do you guys want to go now?". Now it means males only; it is clearer to say "where do you all want to go", meaning both genders.

Of course, some people claim that as caving in to gender inclusiveness, but that doesn't mean they are correct. I rely on the committees of scholars to give us the best, most accurate translations in the clearest possible language. They have done an excellent job!
Many Bible scholars today are deceived in using the Minority Text for their New Testament, as there are thousand of difference in those older manuscripts from the Traditional Text, which uses most of the extant manuscripts. The modern translations use a far more inferior source (oldest manuscripts but highly unreliable) than the Majority Text, which has 85% more witnessing manuscripts than the Minority Text which use one a few manuscripts, just because they are older.
 
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Jim B

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Many Bible scholars today are deceived in using the Minority Text for their New Testament, as there are thousand of difference in those older manuscripts from the Traditional Text, which uses most of the extant manuscripts. The modern translations use a far more inferior source (oldest manuscripts but highly unreliable) than the Majority Text, which has 85% more witnessing manuscripts than the Minority Text which use one a few manuscripts, just because they are older.
Nonsense! Read the introduction of any translation of the Bible and learn the truth.
 

Jim B

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Easy to say, hard to prove! God bless!
No, easy to prove. Again, read the introduction to any Bible. It tells you the sources used, the methodology, the translation goals, etc.

Here is some information on the NRSVue, one of my favorite translations...

The NRSV Updated Edition is the result of rigorous biblical scholarship to give readers access to the most inclusive, informed, and reliable text available. As new manuscripts came to light following the 1989 introduction of the NRSV, an improvement was undertaken to ensure the accuracy, clarity, and modernity of the updated translation.

And some reviews...

“The NRSV Updated Edition is the quintessential exemplar of English Bible translations in our contemporary world. It is the most historically accurate, compellingly clear, and broadly vetted English language translation I know. Academic reliability and everyday readability meet each other on every page. Furthermore, Jewish and Christian readers of all stripes can find in it a work that will be good for faith, study, and wisdom for many years to come.”
— ABRAHAM SMITH, PROFESSOR OF NEW TESTAMENT

PERKINS SCHOOL OF THEOLOGY
SOUTHERN METHODIST UNIVERSITY
NATIONAL BAPTIST CONVENTION, USA, INC.


“I view the NRSV translation to be the finest English Bible we have today. Its scholarship is impeccable. The English is accurate, approachable, and readable. It is excellent for both public and private use. I recommend it highly.”
— Richard J. Foster, author Celebration of Discipline

“I’m glad to have a variety of translations available for Bible reading—but when I want to do serious Bible study, I always consult the NRSV. It avoids the theological prejudice I sense in some translations, drawing from a broadly ecumenical group of top-notch scholars.”
— Brian McLaren, author of A New Kind of Christian

“The NRSV is one of the premier translations of the Bible; indeed, it has been a standard for all others. It continues to deserve the widest circulation and use among scholars, students, and general readers alike.”
— Rev. Richard P. McBrien, Crowley-O’Brien Professor of Theology, University of Notre Dame and author of Catholicism

“The NRSV is one of the most accessible translations available today. It takes advantage of the most recent biblical manuscript discoveries, upholds the literary standards of the much older King James Version, and yet presents the text in understandable and contemporary English. It is gender inclusive where possible without altering the original meaning of the Hebrew and Greek.”
— Rev. Steven P. Brey, Ph.D., Assistant Professor of Religion and Chair of the Philosophy and Religion Department, Methodist University
 

Jim B

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Easy to say, hard to prove! God bless!
What is "hard to prove"? Reading the introduction to a Bible translation? There is nothing to prove and everything to gain. It is essential, unless someone is afraid of understanding the purpose and methodology of a particular translation.

BTW, you might want to look into the history of Bible translation: the sources used, the methodology, etc.
 

Deborah_

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What we have today now is that there are so many differences in these modern translations that attempting to memorize Scripture is impossible; and you can’t use a concordance with them because of the above problems stated.
Sorry, but this is patently untrue. Just choose the translation you want to use, and memorise that one! And with digital bibles, each one comes with its own built-in concordance.
I've never met anyone who struggles with the differences between translations. Most people find it useful to compare them, because it aids understanding.

In the Hebrew text there are no manuscripts that contain the phrase “the brother of” in 2Sam 21:19. But instead of adding this phrase to make it a truthful reading, the MT’s have omitted it as well, making it an errant reading.
Well, the MT that I use (the NIV) doesn't omit it. Please check your facts.
 

Netchaplain

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What is "hard to prove"? Reading the introduction to a Bible translation? There is nothing to prove and everything to gain. It is essential, unless someone is afraid of understanding the purpose and methodology of a particular translation.

BTW, you might want to look into the history of Bible translation: the sources used, the methodology, etc.
It's hard to prove that the translation that uses the majority of manuscripts is better than one using only a couple; and that couple of manuscripts are errant (2Sam 21:19) and corrupt (1Jn 5:7).
 

Netchaplain

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Sorry, but this is patently untrue. Just choose the translation you want to use, and memorise that one! And with digital bibles, each one comes with its own built-in concordance.
I've never met anyone who struggles with the differences between translations. Most people find it useful to compare them, because it aids understanding.


Well, the MT that I use (the NIV) doesn't omit it. Please check your facts.
That's the only modern translation that recently corrected it in their reading (within the last decade), but for many years it had the error. But the primary problem with the NIV is the same as all the other modern translations, which is omitting much Scripture. Plus, memorizing a translation which is different from the one we are use to using (KJV) doesn't help much with unity with the Scriptures with one another, which is very important.
 

quietthinker

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Which translation of the Bible do you use? Many are unaware that the manuscripts used for the modern translations are highly spurious, because of the numerous differences between them and the Traditional Text (TT). The manuscripts used for the TT (Majority Text, or Textus Receptus, or Received Text) are much latter (5 century and latter) than those used for the modern translations (MT). The MT manuscripts were not used for copying purposes like those of the TT, because they had too many errors and therefore were rejected and did not wear out. This is what allowed the modern text to gain much ascendancy in popularity, due to their antiquity (3-4th century). As there are many differences between the manuscripts use for the MT, due to omissions, transpositions and interpolations, the early church would not use them (Vaticanus, Sinaticus and Alexandrinus).

What we have today now is that there are so many differences in these modern translations that attempting to memorize Scripture is impossible; and you can’t use a concordance with them because of the above problems stated. This produces a much less significant text that many do not know which should be followed, and thus the usual response is not reading them very much.

In the Hebrew text there are no manuscripts that contain the phrase “the brother of” in 2Sam 21:19. But instead of adding this phrase to make it a truthful reading, the MT’s have omitted it as well, making it an errant reading. Thus, it should read “Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath.” But the MT has it “Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew Goliath,” making it an errant reading in conflict with 1Chron 20:5, which states that “Elhanan the son of Jair struck down Lahmi the brother of Goliath” (the NIV had this omission until correcting it recently).

In David Fuller’s book ”Which Bible,” he states that in the winter of 1928 there was a prominent publication company that had a newspaper come out saying “Who Killed Goliath.” He continues to say that “a cablegram came from the most learned and devout scholars of the Church of England” and they “said in substance, that the Revised Version was correct, that Elhanan and not David killed Goliath; and that there were many other things in the Bible which were the product of exaggeration, such as the story of Noah and the ark, Jonah and the whale, the garden of Eden and the longevity of Methuselah.”

The Three manuscripts mentioned above are pretty much the ones these detractors use for their translations (compared to thousands of manuscripts used for the TT). The Vaticanus was found on a shelf in the Vatican library, which was there unused for 1500 years; the Sinaticus was found at monastery, where a monk was using some of the parchments for kindling to get a fire started. Both of these codexes are the oldest manuscripts (3rd century), and this is why they are given too much attention.

A greater harm these MT’s produce is from their omitting Scripture. For one of hundreds of examples, they omitted the entire passage of 1Jn 5:7, which is the primary Trinity doctrine.

Hope this is enough to get others interested in this problem, and I have a great deal more omissions to share on this if you are interested, just let me know.

God bless and always guide us to truth!

NC
Jot and titles have always been the focus of the 'religious'. Missing the main event is not new....
....but what can one say except they do not see because they do not see......and Jesus was well aware of this so he speaks to them in parables.

Even paraphrases reveal the main event.......where jot and title have little if no traction. That should have the 'academics' scratching their heads!
 

Rockerduck

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If you recite The Lord's prayer in church, everyone knows the KJV. Any modern translation will garble up the works. Recite John 3:16 and you'll have the same in any group. The King James reads Majestically and poetically like know other translation. That's why people like to memorize and recite the KJV. It just sounds better.
 

Jim B

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It's hard to prove that the translation that uses the majority of manuscripts is better than one using only a couple; and that couple of manuscripts are errant (2Sam 21:19) and corrupt (1Jn 5:7).
Well, the evidence is that modern translations are based on better sources and better scholarship than older translations.
 

quietthinker

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If you recite The Lord's prayer in church, everyone knows the KJV. Any modern translation will garble up the works. Recite John 3:16 and you'll have the same in any group. The King James reads Majestically and poetically like know other translation. That's why people like to memorize and recite the KJV. It just sounds better.
I wonder how it sounds in Swahili?.....maybe Mandarin Chinese?
 
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Deborah_

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memorizing a translation which is different from the one we are use to using (KJV) doesn't help much with unity with the Scriptures with one another, which is very important.
I don't see the problem. What is it to you if I use and memorise a different translation (which I do)? The meaning doesn't change! And nobody that I meet 'in the flesh' uses the KJV anyway!
 
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