Biblical justification for harming or killing followers of Jesus

[Matthias]

Jiu Jitsu Jesus and the apostles vs. Jew Jesus and the apostles

Creative fantasy vs. historical reality

Non-biblical vs. biblical

Error vs. truth

Death vs. life

It matters.

 

[Matthias]

“Christian preaching was reaching even those who lived outside the confines of the Roman Empire. In fact, one of the reasons why the Christians refused to fight was that they might kill a brother in the faith among the barbarians whom the Romans were fighting.”

(Jean-Michel Hornus, It Is Not Lawful For Me To Fight, p. 112)

That’s conscientious objection.

 

[Matthias]

I'm surprised they did not mention the Theban legion! There was an entire Roman legion staffed by Coptic Christians that was martyred for some reason like not wanting to burn incense to Cesar or not wanting to follow some unjust law or command.

I read about it last night. Dr. Hornus discussed it in It Is Not Lawful For Me To Fight.

An excerpt -

“The text in question the Passion of the Martyrs of Agaunum - relates the story of the martyrdom of St. Maurice and the Theban Legion. The events it chronicles purport to go back to the persecution of Diocletian. But the text which we possess was written only in the fifth century by Bishop St. Eucher of Lyon, on the basis of relics which Bishop Theodore discovered at the end of the fourth century. Monceaux himself was forced to admit, ‘In this account, which is swarming with errors, reality has been smothered by legend.’ D. van Berchem, in his fine study of the subject, has been even more severe, and his conclusions have been widely accepted.”

(pp. 154-155)

The only reason I’m mentioning it this morning is because of just how seriously Dr. Hornus himself took an attempted refutation of van Berchem by Dupraz - which I don’t recall having read. That got my attention.

“Since the publication of the first edition of the present book, however, L. Dupraz has devoted a large volume to a refutation of van Berchem. According to Dupraz, the collective martyrdom actually took place - at the end of 285 or the beginning of 286. If this thesis were right, it would mean that in the second half of the third century there were already Christians in the Roman army - in great numbers and in fact comprising fighting units. This would obviously contradict my entire interpretation of the early Church’s attitude toward military service. And, of all the objections to my arguments which have been advanced to date, it would be the only one which I would consider to be of genuine importance. I have elsewhere explained in detail why I have concluded that Dupraz’s thesis - despite its genuine scholarly value - cannot be maintained or even seriously considered. I therefore continue to believe that the only (although real) interest of the text consists in its revelation of ‘the sentiments … of a Roman Christian of the fifth century.’”

(p. 155)

Bold is mine.

 

[Matthias]

I was looking for more recent discussion of the legend of the Theban Legion this morning and came across a paper written by Dr. David Woods in 1994. I‘ve skimmed it but haven’t had time to read the entire paper yet.

The paper concludes with this summary -

“To summarize, there is little doubt but that the story of the martyrdom of Maurice and the Theban Legion which Eucherius’ letter has preserved is a complete fiction. Van Brechem tried to explain this fiction in terms of the translation from the East of the relics of the military martyr Maurice of Apamea. It is possible, however, to advance another hypothesis. It has been suggested that the legend was in fact a carefully constructed political statement which must be interpreted in the light of the political struggles which occurred during during the life of its assumed original author, Theodore of Octodurum. In brief, it was an incitement to rebellion against the usurper Eugenius which was aimed immediately at the Thebaei, but was also relevant to a wider audience. Such a hypothesis cannot be definitively proved, but it is based on evidence as valid as that used in the earlier hypothesis, and it therefore deserves equal attention.”

(David Woods, “The Origin of the Legend of Maurice and the Theban Legion”)

https://cora.ucc.ie/server/api/core/bitstreams/f3ebcda6-e515-4fcd-8ac8-51917a4d307b/content

 

[Matthias]

Chapter 4 of Dr. Hornus’ book is titled “Christian Soldiers and Soldier Saints”. He begins the chapter with this comment -

”Nobody would contest the fact that there were Christians in the Roman army. But it is important first of all to determine the dates at which the earliest documents referring to Christian soldiers appeared. Having done this, we must then ascertain what the state of mind of these soldiers actually was.”

(p. 118)

Near the end of the chapter, he cautions his readers -

”Once again, a methodological caveat: it is irresponsible to generalize about ’the Church’s attitude’ on the basis of indications that there were some Christians in the army, and then to dismiss the teachings of the Fathers on the subject as symptoms of personal perversity or sectarian deviation.”

(p. 154)

 

[Matthias]

“You are not following Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill.”

“The hand that has held the Eucharist must not be sullied by the blood-stained sword.”

(Cyprian, On the Advantage of Patience, 14)

 

[Matthias]

“You are not following Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill.”

“As for Origen, he - when responding to the pagan Celsus’ accusation that the Christians were bad citizens because rejected military service (‘If everyone were to do the same as you, the … earthly things would come into the power of the most lawless and savage barbarians’) - strikingly made no attempt to deny the fact of their refusal. ‘We defend the empire better in another way,’ he stated, conceding by implication that the Christians did not defend it by arms. Thus, at the end of the second century, a pagan who had made a thorough investigation of Christianity had found only Christians who refused military service.”

(Jean-Michel Hornus, It Is Not Lawful For Me To Fight, pp. 160-161)

 

[Matthias]

“There is, moreover, one text - the Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus - which proves that the Church expressed itself officially on this subject, and that it clearly condemned in the army the homicidal violence which is its fundamental character.”

(Jean-Michel, It Is Not Lawful For Me To Fight, p. 161)