Blood Moon . . . Darkened Moon

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

mark s

New Member
Nov 12, 2010
444
20
0
Starting with Joel 2:31 is a terrific place to start.

“And I will give signs in the heavens and in the earth: blood, and fire, and columns of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of YHWH. For it shall be, all who shall call on the name of YHWH shall be saved.”
(Joel 2:30-32)

Now, if I were to ask, where does the Bible also tell us about the moon turning to blood, there are two other places we can cross reference this to, right?

"And I will give wonders in the heaven above, and miraculous signs on the earth below, blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And it shall be that everyone who shall call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Acts 2:19-21)

And I saw when He opened the sixth seal. And behold, a great earthquake occurred. And the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair; and the moon became as blood; (Revelation 6:12)

So what Joel prophesied, Peter quotes in answer to the question, “what is this?”, asked on that Pentacost. And without a record of the moon turning to blood at that time, the logical conclusion is that Peter is explaining this as a fulfillment which begins with the pouring out of the Spirit, which is recorded as occuring at that time, and will conclude at the time of John’s prophetic fulfillment, that future occurance of the moon turning to blood.

If we keep this simple, and keep it exactly literal, this is what we can show from Scripture. Before the Day of YHWH, the Spirit will be poured out upon all flesh, and there will be signs, including the moon turned to blood.

There is another sign foretold as well, which some people have equated with this sign. So that they are asserting:

“The sun will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,” (Joel 2:31)

. . . is equal to . . .

“And immediately after the affliction of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.”(Matthew 24:29)

This is frequently offered to substantiate either pre-wrath or post-trib rapture timing.

The thing is, they are not described as the same event. Now, a number of people will disagree with that, and say that they are indeed the same. However, the more literally we understand the text, the more rigidly we adhere to what it is saying, the more we have to allow that they are in fact different. A blood moon and a darkened moon are not the same thing. One emits light, the other does not.

Since this determination of this being a distinction or not is frequently being used to place the Day of YHWH in relation to the time of great tribulation,

(Notice that Jesus does not, actually, name this time following the Abomination of Desolation as “The Great Tribulation”, but He actually describes the time period as one in which will be great tribulation.)

we need to be very clear on whether or not this is actually what Scripture specifically teaches.

Joel is an especially relevant book to look at this in, since he alone records both occurances, and he also relates them to the Day of YWHW.

Joel 2:1-11
(1) Blow a ram's horn in Zion, and shout an alarm in My holy mountain. Let all those living in the land tremble. For the day of YHWH approaches; it is near,
(2) a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, as the dawn spread out on the mountains, a great and a strong people. There has never been the like, nor shall there ever be again to the years of many generations;
(3) a fire devours before it, and a flame burns behind it. The land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them is a desolate wilderness; yea, also there is no escape to them.
(4) Their appearance is like horses; and as horsemen, so they run.
(5) They shall leap like the noise of chariots on the tops of the mountains, like the noise of flames of fire that devour the chaff, as a strong people set in order for battle.
(6) Before their face, the people shall be pained; all faces collect heat.
(7) They shall run as mighty ones; they shall go up the wall as men of war. And they each go on his way, and they do not change their paths.
(8) And each does not press his brother; they each go in his paths. And if they fall behind their weapon, they shall not be cut off.
(9) They shall rush on the city; they shall run on the wall; they shall climb up on the houses; they shall enter in by the windows, like a thief.
(10) The earth shall quake before them, the heavens shall shake. The sun and moon shall grow dark, and the stars shall gather in their light.
(11) And YHWH shall give His voice before His army, for His camp is very great. For he who does His Word is strong. For the day of YHWH is very great and terrifying, and who can endure it?

In this passage, Joel introduces the Day of YHWH, as “approaching”, and “near”. He goes on to describe this army that will run through the land in ranks. He continues with the heavenly sign, and then YWHW commanding His army, concluding with “the Day of YWHW is very great and terrifying, and who can endure it?

So then, this section begins with “the Day of YHWH approaches / is near”, concluding with “the day of YHWH is very great”. Every thing in between is “shall”, “shall leap”, “shall run”, “shall quake”, “shall grow dark”.

We see a very similar construction in Joel 3:

Joel 3:14-16
(14) Noises have resounded in the valley of judgment: for the day of the YHWH is near in the valley of judgment.
(15) The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their light.
(16) And the YHWH shall cry out of Zion, and shall utter His voice from Jerusalem; and the heaven and the earth shall be shaken, but the Lord shall spare His people, and shall strengthen the children of Israel.

“The Day of YHWH is near”, followed by a series of “shall . . .” statements, “shall be darkened”, “shall cry”, “shall be shaken”.

And this passage gives exactly the same information as 2:10. The sun and moon shall be darkened.

Joel 3 gives us a clearly identifiable time marker:

Joel 3:2 “I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will enter into judgment with them there, for My people and My inheritance, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; and they shared out My land.”

This context is plainly continued in verse 14, “in the valley of judgment”.

We see this elsewhere, also:

Isaiah 13:9-13
(9) Behold, the day of YHWH comes, cruel and with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land waste. And He shall destroy its sinners out of it.
(10) For the stars of the heavens and their constellations shall not give light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not reflect its light.
(11) And I will visit evil on the world, and their iniquity on the wicked. And I will cause the arrogance of the proud to cease; and I will humble the pride of tyrants.
(12) I will make a man more rare than fine gold; even a man more than the carvings of Ophir.
(13) So I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall move out of its place, in the wrath of YHWH of Hosts, and in the day of His fierce anger.

Isaiah does not include the same sort of specific timing markers, making a more generalized statement.

Zechariah 14:6-7
(6) And it will be in that day, there shall not be light; the glorious ones will shrink.
(7) And it will be one day which shall be known to YHWH; not day and not night, but it will be, there will be light at evening time.

This is specifically at the time of YHWH’s physical coming to earth, as He rescues Israel.

Then, of course, there is another plainly stated time when both sun and moon are darkened:

Matthew 24:29-30
(29) And immediately after the affliction of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
(30) And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the land will wail. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory.

And, of course, the next prophecy Jesus gives to us, with which He closes this discourse, is of the sheep/goats judgment, as the nations are gathered before Him, to be judged concerning their treatment of the Israelites, which is the same thing we read in Joel 3.

So then we have a strong pattern shown in Scripture of the events of the Day of YHWH being described including the sun and moon being darkened, at the time Jesus appears in the sky, at the time He stands upon the earth, at the time He gathers the nations for judgment, at the end of the age.

And of the sun being darkened, and the moon turned to blood? Again, this is before the day of YHWH. Joel 2, Acts 2, find their fulfillment in the sixth seal, before the plagues, including the 5 months of the locusts from the pit, before the trumpets are given to the angels, before the bowls are poured out, before Jesus rides out of heaven on a white horse.

Love in Christ,
Mark
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
You've skipped just enough to make what you presented sound... feasible.
Let me begin with the worst error you made, the skipping of the Matt.24:31 verse and your quick move to Matt.25 about separation of sheep/goats being only about Israel.


All 3 below verses are timed together:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

You failed to include the above 31st verse. Notice it is NOT... about separation of sheep/verses goats. Instead, it's about the gathering of Christ's elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. In the Mark 13:27 version, it's a gathering of His elect "... from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

Thus the Matt.25 sheep/goats prophecy is NOT... the very next prophecy Christ gave there.

Why would you try to mislead us on that???
 

mark s

New Member
Nov 12, 2010
444
20
0
Hi veteran,

So then the latest in a series of ad hominems is to ascribe to me intentional deception.

This is becoming very tedious indeed!

However, whether your intent towards is for good or for ill, I have no compunction against taking away any benefit I may receive. So I am pasting below what will be a more complete and correct presentation of the point I am making. And in spite of the evil intent you ascribe to me, I appreciate that I am able to improve from your words.

Corrected version:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Starting with Joel 2:31 is a terrific place to start.

“And I will give signs in the heavens and in the earth: blood, and fire, and columns of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of YHWH. For it shall be, all who shall call on the name of YHWH shall be saved.”
(Joel 2:30-32)

Now, if I were to ask, where does the Bible also tell us about the moon turning to blood, there are two other places we can cross reference this to, right?

"And I will give wonders in the heaven above, and miraculous signs on the earth below, blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And it shall be that everyone who shall call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Acts 2:19-21)

And I saw when He opened the sixth seal. And behold, a great earthquake occurred. And the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair; and the moon became as blood; (Revelation 6:12)

So what Joel prophesied, Peter quotes in answer to the question, “what is this?”, asked on that Pentacost. And without a record of the moon turning to blood at that time, the logical conclusion is that Peter is explaining this as a fulfillment which begins with the pouring out of the Spirit, which is recorded as occuring at that time, and will conclude at the time of John’s prophetic fulfillment, that future occurance of the moon turning to blood.

If we keep this simple, and keep it exactly literal, this is what we can show from Scripture. Before the Day of YHWH, the Spirit will be poured out upon all flesh, and there will be signs, including the moon turned to blood.

There is another sign foretold as well, which some people have equated with this sign. So that they are asserting:

“The sun will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,” (Joel 2:31)

. . . is equal to . . .

“And immediately after the affliction of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.”(Matthew 24:29)

This is frequently offered to substantiate either pre-wrath or post-trib rapture timing.

The thing is, they are not described as the same event. Now, a number of people will disagree with that, and say that they are indeed the same. However, the more literally we understand the text, the more rigidly we adhere to what it is saying, the more we have to allow that they are in fact different. A blood moon and a darkened moon are not the same thing. One emits light, the other does not.

Since this determination of this being a distinction or not is frequently being used to place the Day of YHWH in relation to the time of great tribulation,

(Notice that Jesus does not, actually, name this time following the Abomination of Desolation as “The Great Tribulation”, but He actually describes the time period as one in which will be great tribulation.)

we need to be very clear on whether or not this is actually what Scripture specifically teaches.

Joel is an especially relevant book to look at this in, since he alone records both occurances, and he also relates them to the Day of YWHW.

Joel 2:1-11
(1) Blow a ram's horn in Zion, and shout an alarm in My holy mountain. Let all those living in the land tremble. For the day of YHWH approaches; it is near,
(2) a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, as the dawn spread out on the mountains, a great and a strong people. There has never been the like, nor shall there ever be again to the years of many generations;
(3) a fire devours before it, and a flame burns behind it. The land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them is a desolate wilderness; yea, also there is no escape to them.
(4) Their appearance is like horses; and as horsemen, so they run.
(5) They shall leap like the noise of chariots on the tops of the mountains, like the noise of flames of fire that devour the chaff, as a strong people set in order for battle.
(6) Before their face, the people shall be pained; all faces collect heat.
(7) They shall run as mighty ones; they shall go up the wall as men of war. And they each go on his way, and they do not change their paths.
(8) And each does not press his brother; they each go in his paths. And if they fall behind their weapon, they shall not be cut off.
(9) They shall rush on the city; they shall run on the wall; they shall climb up on the houses; they shall enter in by the windows, like a thief.
(10) The earth shall quake before them, the heavens shall shake. The sun and moon shall grow dark, and the stars shall gather in their light.
(11) And YHWH shall give His voice before His army, for His camp is very great. For he who does His Word is strong. For the day of YHWH is very great and terrifying, and who can endure it?

In this passage, Joel introduces the Day of YHWH, as “approaching”, and “near”. He goes on to describe this army that will run through the land in ranks. He continues with the heavenly sign, and then YWHW commanding His army, concluding with “the Day of YWHW is very great and terrifying, and who can endure it?

So then, this section begins with “the Day of YHWH approaches / is near”, concluding with “the day of YHWH is very great”. Every thing in between is “shall”, “shall leap”, “shall run”, “shall quake”, “shall grow dark”.

We see a very similar construction in Joel 3:

Joel 3:14-16
(14) Noises have resounded in the valley of judgment: for the day of the YHWH is near in the valley of judgment.
(15) The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their light.
(16) And the YHWH shall cry out of Zion, and shall utter His voice from Jerusalem; and the heaven and the earth shall be shaken, but the Lord shall spare His people, and shall strengthen the children of Israel.

“The Day of YHWH is near”, followed by a series of “shall . . .” statements, “shall be darkened”, “shall cry”, “shall be shaken”.

And this passage gives exactly the same information as 2:10. The sun and moon shall be darkened.

Joel 3 gives us a clearly identifiable time marker:

Joel 3:2 “I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will enter into judgment with them there, for My people and My inheritance, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; and they shared out My land.”

This context is plainly continued in verse 14, “in the valley of judgment”.

We see this elsewhere, also:

Isaiah 13:9-13
(9) Behold, the day of YHWH comes, cruel and with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land waste. And He shall destroy its sinners out of it.
(10) For the stars of the heavens and their constellations shall not give light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not reflect its light.
(11) And I will visit evil on the world, and their iniquity on the wicked. And I will cause the arrogance of the proud to cease; and I will humble the pride of tyrants.
(12) I will make a man more rare than fine gold; even a man more than the carvings of Ophir.
(13) So I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall move out of its place, in the wrath of YHWH of Hosts, and in the day of His fierce anger.

Isaiah does not include the same sort of specific timing markers, making a more generalized statement.

Zechariah 14:6-7
(6) And it will be in that day, there shall not be light; the glorious ones will shrink.
(7) And it will be one day which shall be known to YHWH; not day and not night, but it will be, there will be light at evening time.

This is specifically at the time of YHWH’s physical coming to earth, as He rescues Israel.

Then, of course, there is another plainly stated time when both sun and moon are darkened:

Matthew 24:29-31 LITV
(29) And immediately after the affliction of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
(30) And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the land will wail. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory. Dan. 7:13
(31) And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens to their ends.

This begins a chain of events which leads into the sheep/goats judgment, as the nations are gathered before Him, to be judged concerning their treatment of the Israelites, the prophecy that closes this discourse, which is the same thing we read in Joel 3.

So then we have a strong pattern shown in Scripture of the events of the Day of YHWH being described including the sun and moon being darkened, at the time Jesus appears in the sky, at the time He stands upon the earth, at the time He gathers the nations for judgment, at the end of the age.

And of the sun being darkened, and the moon turned to blood? Again, this is before the day of YHWH. Joel 2, Acts 2, find their fulfillment in the sixth seal, before the plagues, including the 5 months of the locusts from the pit, before the trumpets are given to the angels, before the bowls are poured out, before Jesus rides out of heaven on a white horse.

Love in Christ,
Mark
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Hi veteran,

So then the latest in a series of ad hominems is to ascribe to me intentional deception.

This is becoming very tedious indeed!

So you accidently left out the Matt.24:31 verse? Is that what you want us to believe? OK, let's say it was an accident, how does it 'change' your whole theory you've presented with this, for it most definitely does?

Let's see...


[quote name= 'mark s' timestamp='1333699661' post='147835']

Matthew 24:29-31 LITV
(29) And immediately after the affliction of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
(30) And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the land will wail. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory. Dan. 7:13
(31) And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens to their ends.


This begins a chain of events which leads into the sheep/goats judgment, as the nations are gathered before Him, to be judged concerning their treatment of the Israelites, the prophecy that closes this discourse, which is the same thing we read in Joel 3.[/quote]


Both of the following Matt.24:31 and Mark 13:27 Scriptures are of the same event, yet don't you notice something different about them too?


Matt 24:31
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

Mark 13:27
27 And then shall He send his angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(KJV)

Why can't we just dream up some separate doctrine for those two verses also, since the place 'from' which those are gathered is not written the same? One is of those gathered from one end of heaven to the other, and the next is about those gathered from earth to heaven. Can one version be about Gentiles, while the other version is about Israel?

Both examples are about the same gathering event, with one difference. The difference is about the 'asleep' saints Jesus brings with Him, and the other is about saints still alive on earth gathered to Him along with those asleep saints. That's declaring a RESURRECTION time event.

That's why you would feel led to exclude... the Matt.24:31 verse, simply because it's a definite Scripture about the gathering of saints not still alive on the earth, but from Heaven! (i.e., the "asleep" saints Jesus brings with Him that had already died).

Thus even with that, it reveals another witness to the two-part gathering of all of Christ's Church per 1 Thess.4 which Apostle Paul preached.

“And I will give signs in the heavens and in the earth: blood, and fire, and columns of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of YHWH. For it shall be, all who shall call on the name of YHWH shall be saved.”
(Joel 2:30-32)

Now, if I were to ask, where does the Bible also tell us about the moon turning to blood, there are two other places we can cross reference this to, right?

"And I will give wonders in the heaven above, and miraculous signs on the earth below, blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And it shall be that everyone who shall call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Acts 2:19-21)

And I saw when He opened the sixth seal. And behold, a great earthquake occurred. And the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair; and the moon became as blood; (Revelation 6:12)

So what Joel prophesied, Peter quotes in answer to the question, “what is this?”, asked on that Pentacost. And without a record of the moon turning to blood at that time, the logical conclusion is that Peter is explaining this as a fulfillment which begins with the pouring out of the Spirit, which is recorded as occuring at that time, and will conclude at the time of John’s prophetic fulfillment, that future occurance of the moon turning to blood.

When Peter said, "But this is that...", he was marking the cloven tongue of Pentecost as an 'EXAMPLE' of what was prophesied to occur in the Book of Joel. He was NOT... saying it had then come to pass. It was kind of like, 'here, sample the soup while it's cooking, and then later the soup is laid out for the real meal.' The real meal is for the time of the very end of this world, just prior to the sound of the trumpet with Christ's coming on the day of The Lord.

And that's the kind of events being described with the locusts in the Book of Joel, starting at the FIRST chapter of Joel 1. It's how they would come in the last days to devour God's people, and God Himself called them His "great army" that He sent (Joel 2:25). In Rev.9 we're given a parallel description of that locust army event for the last days. It's about tribulation timing, not the timing of Pentecost in Peter's days. It's also about one of the signs Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse, and in the 7 Seals of Revelation.


If we keep this simple, and keep it exactly literal, this is what we can show from Scripture. Before the Day of YHWH, the Spirit will be poured out upon all flesh, and there will be signs, including the moon turned to blood.

There is another sign foretold as well, which some people have equated with this sign. So that they are asserting:

“The sun will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,” (Joel 2:31)

. . . is equal to . . .

“And immediately after the affliction of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.”(Matthew 24:29)

This is frequently offered to substantiate either pre-wrath or post-trib rapture timing.

The thing is, they are not described as the same event. Now, a number of people will disagree with that, and say that they are indeed the same. However, the more literally we understand the text, the more rigidly we adhere to what it is saying, the more we have to allow that they are in fact different. A blood moon and a darkened moon are not the same thing. One emits light, the other does not.

Thing is, that Matt.24:29 Scripture IS... about the last day of this present world, what Paul and Peter called "the day of the Lord", and both declared WHEN Christ's coming and our gathering will occur. The OT prophets were given to write about it first...


Matt 24:29-30
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(KJV)

First MAJOR clue, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...".


Isa 13:10-13
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of His fierce anger.
(KJV)

How is that not about the time of God's wrath upon the wicked on that day??

How is that not... about Christ's coming and our gathering after the tribulation??