The Seven Last Plagues

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Douggg

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It's the same thing. There isn't a 3.5 year regular trib then a 3.5 great trib. The entire period was shortened to only 42 months, and is the trib or great trib. It's the same 42 months.

Mat_24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Here is is called great trib

Mat_24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Here it is just trib.

It's the same period of time.
Why don't you use the terms in the bible for Matthew 24:21 and Matthew 24:29 ? i.e "the great tribulation" and "the tribulation of those days".

The abbreviated term "trib" is associated with the rapture timing views of pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib. Misnomers to what is really meant as pre-70th week, mid-70th week, post-70th week. Your use of the abbreviated terms "trib" and "great trib" makes it sound like you are trying to justify your rapture timing view - whatever that is.

Always use the non-abbreviated terms from the text so that people will know what you are talking about.


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It is confusing what you wrote.

Are you meaning that in your view - the great tribulation and the tribulation of those days - are equal in length ?

And what text says the great tribulation begins at the start of the 42 months ?

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Jesus said in Matthew 24:15-21 that the great tribulation would begin when the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel is standing in the holy place.

What verses in Daniel refer to the abomination of desolation at the time of the end ?
 
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Douggg

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the great tribulation (Matthew 24:21) - 1335 days long. Ends with Jesus's coming in power and great glory.
the tribulation of those days (Matthew 24:29) - 1290 days long - leads to the sign of the Son of man in heaven.


Matthew 24:30

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,


and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

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The world will see the sign of the Son of man in heaven. 45 days later (1335-1290) Jesus will descend to earth coming in the clouds of heaven in power and great glory.
 
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ewq1938

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Why don't you use the terms in the bible for Matthew 24:21 and Matthew 24:29 ? i.e "the great tribulation" and "the tribulation of those days".

I do.


The abbreviated term "trib" is associated with the rapture timing views of pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib. Misnomers to what is really meant as pre-70th week, mid-70th week, post-70th week. Your use of the abbreviated terms "trib" and "great trib" makes it sound like you are trying to justify your rapture timing view - whatever that is.


No, trib is just short for tribulation and/or great tribulation.


Always use the non-abbreviated terms from the text so that people will know what you are talking about.


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It is confusing what you wrote.

Are you meaning that in your view - the great tribulation and the tribulation of those days - are equal in length ?

And what text says the great tribulation begins at the start of the 42 months ?

Rev 12 (last verse) and Rev 13 show the start of the trib which is the same timeframe for the trib Christ spoke about in the OD.



Jesus said in Matthew 24:15-21 that the great tribulation would begin when the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel is standing in the holy place.

That's all found in Rev 13 with the end of the trib found in Rev 11.
 

Timtofly

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Because Revelation is not written as a straight through fashion timeline, chapter to chapter.

The statement "the second woe is past" in Revelation 11:14 - does not mean that the second woe has been fulfilled on the timeline. It means that John has already been shown what the second woe would be. And that John was about to be shown what the third woe would.

Which, in Revelation 12, John was shown what the third woe would be - Satan's wrath directed at the inhabiters of the earth (and sea, because it is more expansive than the woes 1 and 2).

Once all three woes are made known to the reader - then how they fit together can be understood.

The third woe - lasting a time/times/half time envelopes the other two woes. And because the star in Revelation 9:1 is falling from heaven and opens the bottomless pit - it can be reasoned that star is Satan falling to earth, from being cast out of the second heaven (the cosmos). Taking out his wrath on the inhabiters of the earth right away.
Feel free to make up your own timeline.

I will stick with what John actually saw, and when he saw what actually happened.
 

Douggg

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That's all found in Rev 13 with the end of the trib found in Rev 11.
Revelation 13 has 42 months in it. Daniel 12:11-12, the abomination of desolation reference by Jesus in Matthew 24:15 have 1290 days and 1335 days. Neither fits within 42 months.

Also, one of the heads on the beast had been mortally wounded but healed. Since in Revelation 13, the head had already been healed, that means it happened before the 42 months. What was the circumstances for that head (king) being killed and brought back to life?
 

ewq1938

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Also, one of the heads on the beast had been mortally wounded but healed. Since in Revelation 13, the head had already been healed, that means it happened before the 42 months. What was the circumstances for that head (king) being killed and brought back to life?

The heads are mountains not people, and no death occurred. It was a grievous wound that healed rather than end in a death. It would coincide with the before-trib events Christ spoke of in the OD like wars and rumors of wars. A would by a sword is symbology of war.
 

Douggg

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The heads are mountains not people, and no death occurred. It was a grievous wound that healed rather than end in a death. It would coincide with the before-trib events Christ spoke of in the OD like wars and rumors of wars. A would by a sword is symbology of war.
The seven heads on the scarlet coloured beast in Revelation 17 represent the seven mountains on which the woman sits. The seven heads also represent 7 kings in Revelation 17:10. That the heads are kings in Revelation 13, one has only to look at Revelation 12 and those seven heads have crowns - because they are kings.

btw, I thought you said you spelled out "tribulation" ? Also "OD" ? It took me a few seconds to figure out that you meant Olivet Discourse. Stop will all the abbreviations and spell things out.

"before-trib" sounds like pre-trib. Spell out "before the great tribulation" instead of the abbreviations.
 
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ewq1938

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The seven heads on the scarlet coloured beast in Revelation 17 represent the seven mountains on which the woman sits. The seven heads also represent 7 kings in Revelation 17:10. That the heads are kings in Revelation 13, one has only to look at Revelation 12 and those seven heads have crowns - because they are kings.

btw, I thought you said you spelled out "tribulation" ? Also "OD" ? It took me a few seconds to figure out that you meant Olivet Discourse. Stop will all the abbreviations and spell things out.

"before-trib" sounds like pre-trib. Spell out "before the great tribulation" instead of the abbreviations.


If you don't understand something just ask.
 

ewq1938

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The seven heads on the scarlet coloured beast in Revelation 17 represent the seven mountains on which the woman sits. The seven heads also represent 7 kings in Revelation 17:10.


No, the 7 kings are a separate concept. We know that because 6 have fallen and are gone yet the Rev 13 beast will rise with all heads fully intact. That is a clear contradiction if one believes 7 heads are the consecutive kings of the past.
 

Douggg

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No, the 7 kings are a separate concept. We know that because 6 have fallen and are gone yet the Rev 13 beast will rise with all heads fully intact. That is a clear contradiction if one believes 7 heads are the consecutive kings of the past.

Revelation 12
That chapter has the 7 years in it.
The seven heads have their crowns in Revelation 12, completing the Revelation 17:10 prophecy about the seven kings.
No head mortally wounded/headed head in that chapter - i.e. the person has not become the beast, yet.

Revelation 13
That chapter has the 42 months in it.
The seven heads do not have crowns in Revelation 13. King seven will have been killed and brought back to life before the 42 months begins.

The mortally/wounded healed head is the beast. i.e. king 7 has become king 8 the beast king, fulfilling Revelation 17:10-11.
 
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ewq1938

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Revelation 12
That chapter has the 7 years in it.


And it is all before the war starts against Christian, see the last verse. These time periods start and end before the trib ever exists.


The seven heads have their crowns in Revelation 12, completing the Revelation 17:10 prophecy about the seven kings.


The heads are not kings. They are mountains where ten kingdoms (ten kings) will exist.
 

Douggg

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And it is all before the war starts against Christian, see the last verse. These time periods start and end before the trib ever exists.

The heads are not kings. They are mountains where ten kingdoms (ten kings) will exist.
Spell out "great tribulation" and don't abbreviate, leaving out the word "great" . It is misleading to say "the trib".

Revelation 12:17 is about the persecution of the Jews, who will have turned to Jesus in Revelation 12:10, bur who did not flee to the mountains in a timely manner, and thus become subject to persecution by Satan.

Mountains do not have crowns, kings do. The seven heads on the beast have crowns in Revelation 12. The ten horns have crown in Revelation 13.

Conversely, in Revelation 17:9, the seven heads which are 7 mountains is a location where the woman sits.
Revelation 17:10 are seven heads associated with the power structure of that location.
 

ewq1938

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Spell out "great tribulation" and don't abbreviate, leaving out the word "great" . It is misleading to say "the trib".

No, it is not.


Revelation 12:17 is about the persecution of the Jews, who will have turned to Jesus in Revelation 12:10, bur who did not flee to the mountains in a timely manner, and thus become subject to persecution by Satan.

Mountains do not have crowns, kings do.

Doesn't matter in symbolic language. There is no 7 headed dragon or beast.

The heads are not the rulers. The horns are the rulers and the heads are WHERE they rule. This is just like Pagan Rome where Caesar (one of many antichrists) ruled over ten states with their rulers (the ten horns) and these ten states (mini-kingdoms) were LOCATED on 7 hills (the 7 heads/mountains).


Obviously the 7 hills weren't an additional 7 leaders in Rome anymore than they are 7 more Kings in Rev 13, 17.


Here's the basic issue:

Some translations are based on a manuscript, and some are based on a different manuscript. The manuscripts differ in various ways and this is one of them:

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

The KJV has the 7 heads/mountains as separate as the 7 kings while other translations have the 7 heads/mountains as also being the 7 kings:

Rev 17:9 This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated;
Rev 17:10 they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while.

Both cannot be correct but there is an easy way to figure out which one is right and which isn't.



Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

"having seven heads" means the beast possess all 7 heads. If the manuscripts the ESV is based upon are right then the beast would have one head since it says 6 of the heads would have fallen (no longer exist) by the time of the 7th king/head. The fact that the beast has all 7 heads, and none of the heads had fallen means the ESV version is simply wrong. Furthermore, Rev 13 tells us one head was wounded and then healed so instead of 6 heads supposedly falling before the arrival of the 7th head, all the heads are perfectly intact and one even survives a serious wound and does not fall.

The manuscripts the KJV is based upon are correct because they accurately keep the intact and unfallen 7 heads of the Rev 13:1 beast separate from the completely different information about previous kings which were successive and fell one by one until there was a 7th that was standing alone. These 7 kings are the same as the 4 successive beasts in Daniel. Only one existed at a time with the previous falling away. The 4th being equal to the 7th king (who has a beast-kingdom of course) of Rev 17.


Rev 17:9 This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated;

The 7 heads of the beast are said to be mountains and those are areas of land where kingdoms exist. The only things of the beast which represent kings are the horns:

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

So, 7 heads are 7 mountains, not kings. The ten horns are the kings of the beast and of course there are 10, not 7 and they are kings for the entire "one hour" the beast reigns over the world. None of the horns or mountains fall leaving others to stand. When it's time for any of the beast to fall, they all fall at the same time being defeated by Christ at Armageddon.
 

Hobie

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Beliefs about consciousness (ignorance)… and therein greed, vanity, pride & arrogance, and more so, the actions & behaviors indicative of ignorance, are destroying creation to the point of uninhabitability. The second coming is the dispelling of beliefs (ignorance). All that’s in question is how bad it has to get.
If we are not there, we are at the door as even NYC can't take it, and trying anything it can, to no avail...
 

Phil .

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If we are not there, we are at the door as even NYC can't take it, and trying anything it can, to no avail...
Yeah. This price gouge era is a precursor (mass greed).
If nothing else, uninhabitable climate change.
 

Hobie

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Yeah. This price gouge era is a precursor (mass greed).
If nothing else, uninhabitable climate change.
Well when the earth starts shaking and the islands start to sink beneath their feet, they will begin to get it...
 

Douggg

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So, 7 heads are 7 mountains, not kings.
The 7 heads also are 7 kings. Not 7 kingdoms.

5 fallen, one is, one is yet to come at the time John

In Revelation 17 no crowns on the 7 heads. (prophecy about the 7 kings incomplete)
In Revelation 12 crowns on the 7 heads. (prophecy about the 7 kings complete)
In Revelation 13 no crowns on the 7 heads, one head mortally wounded but healed (prophecy about the 7 kings over - the mortal wounded but healed head is king 7, who continues a short space of 42 months as the beast-king, king 8)

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
 
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ewq1938

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The 7 heads also are 7 kings.


They are not kings. The horns are the kings. A head is something different than a horn.


Not 7 kingdoms.

5 fallen, one is, one is yet to come at the time John


None of the heads are fallen in Rev 13 through the whole book to the second coming.



In Revelation 17 no crowns on the 7 heads. (prophecy about the 7 kings incomplete)


5 kings having fallen at John's time means that part was never prophecy anyways. The only prophetic part is the 6th was falling and would fall, and the two remaining ones would come in the future.


In Revelation 12 crowns on the 7 heads. (prophecy about the 7 kings complete)


There's never 12 crowns on 7 heads. You are mixing the 12 the woman has with what the dragon or beast have.



In Revelation 13 no crowns on the 7 heads, one head mortally wounded but healed (prophecy about the 7 kings over - the mortal wounded but healed head is king 7, who continues a short space of 42 months as the beast-king, king 8)


None of those heads are fallen while John said 5 had fallen long ago and the 6th was falling. None of that can be said about the heads of the Rev 13 beast. You are confusing heads and past kings.
 

Douggg

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There's never 12 crowns on 7 heads. You are mixing the 12 the woman has with what the dragon or beast have.
Not 12 crowns, but 7.

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

In Revelation 12, which has the 7 year 70th week in it, the prophecy of the 7 kings will have been fulfilled. King 7, the end time little horn person will have come to power.


None of those heads are fallen while John said 5 had fallen long ago and the 6th was falling. None of that can be said about the heads of the Rev 13 beast. You are confusing heads and past kings.
In Revelation 13, none of the 7 heads have crowns, because king 7 will have been killed. And is the one mortally wounded but headed head - the beast of Revelation 17:11.

In Revelation 17:17 the 10 kings (the ten horns) give their kingdom over to the beast. Thus, the beast becomes a king, king 8 of Revelation 17:11.


It is real simple.
Revelation 17:3 prophecy incomplete.
Revelation 12:3 prophecy partially complete. 7 kings fulfilled.
Revelation 13:1 prophecy fully complete. 10 kings fulfilled. The beast-king, king 8, come to power.

beast-king rules for 42 months.
 
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Hobie

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Seems like there is problems trying to use 42 literal months, that is why history gives you clues..