Books Outside the Bible

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Willie T

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A few more words on "the Canon.":

The rise of Protestantism forced reconsideration of what had up to that point been a relatively unproblematic question: what specific texts does the phrase “the Bible” denote? At a fairly early stage in its history, the Christian church had to make some important decisions as to what the term “scripture” actually designated. The first major phase in the history of the church, often referred to as the “patristic period” (c. 100–c. 450), witnessed the setting of the limits to the New Testament — a process usually known as “the fixing of the canon.” The word “canon” derives from the Greek word kanon, meaning a “rule” or “reference point.” The phrase “the canon of scripture” thus refers to a limited and defined group of writings that are accepted as authoritative within the church.

What criteria were used in drawing up this canon? The basic principle underlying this process appears to have been that of the recognition rather than the imposition of authority. In other words, the works in question were recognized by Christians as already possessing authority; they did not have an arbitrary authority imposed upon them. For the early church father Irenaeus, the church does not create the canon of scripture; it acknowledges, conserves, and receives canonical scripture on the basis of the authority already inherent to it. Some early Christians appear to have regarded apostolic authorship as of decisive importance; others were prepared to accept books that did not appear to have apostolic credentials. Although the precise details of how this selection was made remain unclear, it is certain that the canon was closed within the Western church by the beginning of the fifth century. The issue of the canon would not be raised again until the dawn of Protestantism.

At the time of the Reformation, a major debate broke out over whether some works accepted by the medieval church as canonical really deserved this status. It must be emphasized that the debate centered on the Old Testament; the canon of the New Testament was never seriously questioned, despite Martin Luther’s misgivings about the canonicity of the letter of James and three other shorter letters.

While all the New Testament works were accepted as canonical — Luther’s misgivings would gain little support — doubts were raised concerning the canonicity of a group of Old Testament works. A comparison of the contents of the Old Testament in the Hebrew Bible, on the one hand, and in the Greek and Latin versions (such as the Septuagint and the Vulgate), on the other, shows that the latter contain a number of works not found in the former. Following the lead of Jerome, the reformers argued that the only Old Testament writings that could be regarded as belonging to the canon of scripture were those originally included in the Hebrew Bible.

Protestants thus drew a distinction between the Old Testament and what they termed the “Apocrypha.” The former consisted of texts found in the Hebrew Bible, while the latter consisted of text found in Greek and Latin versions of the Bible but not in the Hebrew Bible. While some reformers allowed that the apocryphal works made for edifying reading, there was general agreement that these works could not be used as the basis of doctrine. However, Catholic theologians of the Middle Ages, followed by the Council of Trent in 1546, defined the Old Testament as “those Old Testament works contained in the Greek and Latin bibles,” thus eliminating from the outset any distinction between “Old Testament” and “Apocrypha.”

From the beginning, therefore, Catholics and Protestants have had quite different understandings of what the term “the Bible” means, and this difference persists to the present day. A comparison of current Protestant versions of the Bible — the two most important being the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) and the New International Version (NIV ) — with their Catholic counterparts, such as the Jerusalem Bible, reveals these differences.

One practical outcome of this sixteenth-century debate was the production and circulation of authorized lists of books that were to be regarded as “scriptural.” The fourth session of the Council of Trent (1546) produced a detailed list that included the works of the Apocrypha as authentically scriptural, while Protestant congregations in Switzerland, France, and elsewhere produced lists that either totally omitted any reference to these works or indicated that they were of no importance in matters of doctrine.
McGrath
 
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BreadOfLife

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What you do you were not called to, not to reviling, but to love and compassion.
I don't "revile" - I correct, reprove and admonish.
YOU
guys get "offended" when I correct YOUR lies - just like the pharisees did . . .
 

Uisdean

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This is very interesting to study. Listening to the prompting of the Holy Spirit is very important. And the Bible is a good indication if it is the Holy Spirit speaking.

Question: outside of the Bible, how do you know if what you are hearing is the Holy Spirit?
 

ScottA

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I don't "revile" - I correct, reprove and admonish.
YOU
guys get "offended" when I correct YOUR lies - just like the pharisees did . . .
...And what biblical terms would you give your name-calling and rudeness?

Whatever terms you would use Love has cancelled none of it, for these are not love, which commandment you have neglected.
 

Marymog

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And we also have many non-Protestant churches that rely on different weights/versions of history, have different beliefs from each other, and different practices.

Diversity in beliefs is is NO way a Protestant-only thing.
What is a non-Protestant Church?

Curious Mary
 

Uisdean

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I don't "revile" - I correct, reprove and admonish.
YOU
guys get "offended" when I correct YOUR lies - just like the pharisees did . . .

Do you really believe that the non-Roman Catholic Church people who parrot misconceptions actually know that the misconceptions are false and that they do it because they intend deception?

Is this not a case of people hearing something and developing a "vested interest" in what they hear because of who said it?

And, is it possible that some of the responses to you are simply to "pull your chain" and obtain some entertainment?

What did Jesus do with the Pharisees? He asked them specific questions to point out their misconceptions, didn't he? And he educated those who "had ears to hear."

If you look at my posts, you'll see that I'm not very good at what I'm suggesting: Sometimes I want to scream! And, yes, I could have said this in a private message, however, what I am saying here actually applies to everyone. All sorts of members of this forum want to shove their version of "Truth" down everyone else's throats (including me...:)) So, please don't think that I am "picking on you" and not them. I actually find your educational posts very worthwhile, even if I don't agree with your conclusions. And I thank you for your insights.
 

BreadOfLife

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A few more words on "the Canon.":

The rise of Protestantism forced reconsideration of what had up to that point been a relatively unproblematic question: what specific texts does the phrase “the Bible” denote? At a fairly early stage in its history, the Christian church had to make some important decisions as to what the term “scripture” actually designated. The first major phase in the history of the church, often referred to as the “patristic period” (c. 100–c. 450), witnessed the setting of the limits to the New Testament — a process usually known as “the fixing of the canon.” The word “canon” derives from the Greek word kanon, meaning a “rule” or “reference point.” The phrase “the canon of scripture” thus refers to a limited and defined group of writings that are accepted as authoritative within the church.

What criteria were used in drawing up this canon? The basic principle underlying this process appears to have been that of the recognition rather than the imposition of authority. In other words, the works in question were recognized by Christians as already possessing authority; they did not have an arbitrary authority imposed upon them. For the early church father Irenaeus, the church does not create the canon of scripture; it acknowledges, conserves, and receives canonical scripture on the basis of the authority already inherent to it. Some early Christians appear to have regarded apostolic authorship as of decisive importance; others were prepared to accept books that did not appear to have apostolic credentials. Although the precise details of how this selection was made remain unclear, it is certain that the canon was closed within the Western church by the beginning of the fifth century. The issue of the canon would not be raised again until the dawn of Protestantism.

At the time of the Reformation, a major debate broke out over whether some works accepted by the medieval church as canonical really deserved this status. It must be emphasized that the debate centered on the Old Testament; the canon of the New Testament was never seriously questioned, despite Martin Luther’s misgivings about the canonicity of the letter of James and three other shorter letters.

While all the New Testament works were accepted as canonical — Luther’s misgivings would gain little support — doubts were raised concerning the canonicity of a group of Old Testament works. A comparison of the contents of the Old Testament in the Hebrew Bible, on the one hand, and in the Greek and Latin versions (such as the Septuagint and the Vulgate), on the other, shows that the latter contain a number of works not found in the former. Following the lead of Jerome, the reformers argued that the only Old Testament writings that could be regarded as belonging to the canon of scripture were those originally included in the Hebrew Bible.

Protestants thus drew a distinction between the Old Testament and what they termed the “Apocrypha.” The former consisted of texts found in the Hebrew Bible, while the latter consisted of text found in Greek and Latin versions of the Bible but not in the Hebrew Bible. While some reformers allowed that the apocryphal works made for edifying reading, there was general agreement that these works could not be used as the basis of doctrine. However, Catholic theologians of the Middle Ages, followed by the Council of Trent in 1546, defined the Old Testament as “those Old Testament works contained in the Greek and Latin bibles,” thus eliminating from the outset any distinction between “Old Testament” and “Apocrypha.”

From the beginning, therefore, Catholics and Protestants have had quite different understandings of what the term “the Bible” means, and this difference persists to the present day. A comparison of current Protestant versions of the Bible — the two most important being the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) and the New International Version (NIV ) — with their Catholic counterparts, such as the Jerusalem Bible, reveals these differences.

One practical outcome of this sixteenth-century debate was the production and circulation of authorized lists of books that were to be regarded as “scriptural.” The fourth session of the Council of Trent (1546) produced a detailed list that included the works of the Apocrypha as authentically scriptural, while Protestant congregations in Switzerland, France, and elsewhere produced lists that either totally omitted any reference to these works or indicated that they were of no importance in matters of doctrine.
McGrath
WRONG.
Your comments in RED are complete and total fairy tales.

First of all – the Reformation never “forced reconsideration” of which Books belonged in the Bible. It became a free-for-all among your Protestant Fathers to begin the deletion and editing of Scripture.

The Church NEVER faltered and remained stalwart with its Holy Spirit-inspired Canon. In fact - the ONLY change the Church made during the Protestant Revolt was to officially CLOSE the Canon because of all of the Scriptural butchery taking place among the Rebels.

As for Jerome – he never “rejected” the Deuterocanonical Books. As I stated earlier – the Jewish scholars who were assisting him in his translating are the ones who rejected them. Jerome not only referred to them as “Sacred Scripture” – he used them in his debates to prove and support Christian doctrines.

Here are his OWN words on the subject:

“What sin have I committed if I followed the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the story of Susanna, the Son of the Three Children, and the story of Bel and the Dragon, which are not found in the Hebrew volume (ie. canon), proves that he is just a foolish sycophant. For I wasn’t relating my own personal views, but rather the remarks that they [the Jews] are wont to make against us” (Against Rufinus 11:33 [A.D. 402]).

These Books were INCLUDED in the OPEN Jewish Canon that existed in the 1st century. Jesus and the NT writers grew up on and studied from these Books as “Scripture”. This is why I ALSO pointed out to you that there are some 200 references, quotes and allusions to these Books on the pages of the NT – and you STILL haven’t been able to address this.

WHY is that, Willie??
 

BreadOfLife

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Do you really believe that the non-Roman Catholic Church people who parrot misconceptions actually know that the misconceptions are false and that they do it because they intend deception?

Is this not a case of people hearing something and developing a "vested interest" in what they hear because of who said it?

And, is it possible that some of the responses to you are simply to "pull your chain" and obtain some entertainment?

What did Jesus do with the Pharisees? He asked them specific questions to point out their misconceptions, didn't he? And he educated those who "had ears to hear."

If you look at my posts, you'll see that I'm not very good at what I'm suggesting: Sometimes I want to scream! And, yes, I could have said this in a private message, however, what I am saying here actually applies to everyone. All sorts of members of this forum want to shove their version of "Truth" down everyone else's throats (including me...:)) So, please don't think that I am "picking on you" and not them. I actually find your educational posts very worthwhile, even if I don't agree with your conclusions. And I thank you for your insights.
Absolutely NOT.

I come here for ONE purpose only:
To seek out lies and fairy tales against the Catholic Church and to set the record straight so that others who come here seeking the truth will not be seduced by the lies. Unfortunately, this has become a FULL-TIME job around here.

I don't tolerate lies - and neither does Christ - and neither should YOU . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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I have in no way at anytime in this thread talked about specifically about Catholics at all, so I'm not sure where you are getting this post from.
And I'm not sure what a "Non-Protestant church" is.
Can you explain?
 

BreadOfLife

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...And what biblical terms would you give your name-calling and rudeness?
Whatever terms you would use Love has cancelled none of it, for these are not love, which commandment you have neglected.
First, tell me what Biblical term YOU would pply to your hypocrisy.
I LOVE how anti-Catholics protect each other's sins - but when a Catholic puts the in their place, then he's being "rude" or "unChristlike".

When I see you admonishing and correcting on your fellow anti-Catholics for spreading filthy lies - ONLY then will you have the right to pull the speck out of MY eye.
Until then, however - pull the BEAM out of your own . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Question: outside of the Bible, how do you know if what you are hearing is the Holy Spirit?
By heeding the Bible and obeying Christ's Church (Matt. 16:18-19 Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).
The Holy Spirit teaches us through His Church.
 

Jane_Doe22

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And I'm not sure what a "Non-Protestant church" is.
Can you explain?
There are MANY churches out there besides Protestants and Catholics. For example, look at all the Orthodox branches.

I'm not here to Catholic bash or anything silly like that. I honestly respect Catholics and much about the Catholic faith, and have attended various Catholics services over the course fo a decade. I'm just pointing out the variety of different beliefs/views out there. I don't appreciate anyone bashing anyone.
 

BreadOfLife

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There are MANY churches out there besides Protestants and Catholics. For example, look at all the Orthodox branches.

I'm not here to Catholic bash or anything silly like that. I honestly respect Catholics and much about the Catholic faith, and have attended various Catholics services over the course fo a decade. I'm just pointing out the variety of different beliefs/views out there. I don't appreciate anyone bashing anyone.
Actually - Jesus built ONE Church - just ONE (Matt. 16:18, John 17:21-23).
The rest are offshoots of that ONE Church.
 
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amadeus

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Cool. Do you read the Bible.in German and Spanish? I can sing them, but know only translations.

I haven't got into a really good book in awhile, but right now I am reading one and having a Bible.study with my friend. It is called "The Forgotten God." And it is about the Holy Spirit.
Yes, I keep up my German and Spanish as well as help my perspective by reading the scriptures in those languages as well. Of course in Oklahoma these days I have opportunities to speak Spanish, but its been years since I have had a conversation in German.

If you are able to sing songs in those languages hold onto that. God will use it when He has a use for it.

Science fiction for the most part I had to give up many years ago because I was finding too much junk in them even in the very old writers. The new ones are almost always for me untouchable. I always liked to read mysteries as well but I don't own any good ones any more and the new ones are also for me usually unreadable.

I haven't read lots of books that testify to me, but one of the best ones is by Corrie Ten Boom, the Dutch sister who helped Jews in WWII and ended up in Nazi concentration camps. I have her story in the "The Hiding Place" and in "Tramp for the Lord". I have read them more than once but not recently. Especially the first one is worth anyone' time in my opinion.
 
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BreadOfLife

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And I respect that that's your belief.
Now obviously other people have other beliefs, and I'm going to respect them as well.
It's not only MY belief - it's a Biblical teaching.
However - I realize that others don't accept that teaching - and that's fine with me.

I only object to those who LIE about what the Church teaches and practices.
 
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ScottA

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First, tell me what Biblical term YOU would pply to your hypocrisy.
I LOVE how anti-Catholics protect each other's sins - but when a Catholic puts the in their place, then he's being "rude" or "unChristlike".

When I see you admonishing and correcting on your fellow anti-Catholics for spreading filthy lies - ONLY then will you have the right to pull the speck out of MY eye.
Until then, however - pull the BEAM out of your own . . .
This whole anti-catholic thing is completely yours. If I have spoke against you, it is against you, not the Catholics.

In fact, I often include the Protestants in these threads to try to show that this infighting of yours is just as bad as anything you are intending to stand against. But you have not dragged me into your conflict, except to add me to your slanders and name-calling.

So - no, I have no need to define a term that you have only used against me as false witness. Any "hypocrisy" here, is yours.
 

amadeus

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It sounds to me like youve lived a full and joyous life with a wife that is both wise and good for you ...


I came so that they might have life and have it more abundantly.

Give God the Glory!

Peace!
Oh yes, alone from what I can see I would already be physically dead. She has been a good help meet and God has made me recognize her positive impact on my life more and more over the years. We are both very slow these days and usually quite alone in the natural. Our children call periodically and visit infrequently, but that is not all bad as we really could not and really do not want to try to keep up with them.
 

BreadOfLife

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This whole anti-catholic thing is completely yours. If I have spoke against you, it is against you, not the Catholics.

In fact, I often include the Protestants in these threads to try to show that this infighting of yours is just as bad as anything you are intending to stand against. But you have not dragged me into your conflict, except to add me to your slanders and name-calling.

So - no, I have no need to define a term that you have only used against me as false witness. Any "hypocrisy" here, is yours.
Soooo - you call them out when they spread lies about the Catholic Church??

Funny - I don't seem to remember even ONE instance where you came too the defense of the Catholic Church during one of these tirades of lies.
WHY is that, Scott??

The fact is that anti-Catholicism has become the last acceptable prejudice . . .