Books Outside the Bible

[Marymog]

You want I should say one is better because it didn't last as long or kill as many?
No, Mary...I'm not going to do that.
BOTH were wrong.
BOTH did not practice their Christianity.

I know....That's what I said

Cool your jets sister

Mary

 

[GodsGrace]

I know....That's what I said

Cool your jets sister

Mary

My jets are kool !


Good night...

 

[BreadOfLife]

In which post(s) did she use hateful words?

Patient Mary

When did I say she used hateful "words"??

I said her lies and support of Rollo's lies were MOTIVATED by hate.
LEARN the difference . . .

 

[Prayer Warrior]

The "atheist source" is Calvin's own words.

The "Catholic" source has quotes from Catholic and Protestant Historians.

The Wikipedia source is....well, you know.

What would you like? Only Protestant sources? What is your point?

Patient Mary

Well, maybe it's not a good idea to trust an atheist to get his quotes about Christianity right?

 

[BobRyan]

You really don't think it is important to know the history of how the bible you quote from came to be (66 or 73 books)

Not even remotely true.

What is true in "real life" is -
1. The RCC did not pen a single word of the Bible.
2. the Jews - not the RCC - were writing the OT and that even includes books before Christ that do not belong in the OT.
3. Not a single writer of the NT knew anything about the RCC.
4. it was all complete before the start of the 2nd century.
5. Nobody in the OT or NT was saying "sorry - can't read the Bible till the RCC comes along a few hundred years from now to tell me what to read".

Acts 17:11 "they studied the SCRIPTURES daily to see IF those things were so"

 

[BobRyan]

Prayer Warrior said: ↑
This is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. I've never known of an organization that has whitewashed history more than the RCC!

Now that's a pretty interesting statement.

Any "histories" written before the '60's is known to be unreliable and outdated.

Ahhh yes so then you are proficient in creative writing AND comedy?? Did the RCC toss out all their books written before 1960??? Seriously??

 

[BobRyan]

I believe it says that they should be:
First...excommunicated. (heretics)
Then..expelled from their territory.

I don't believe it says exterminated, the way we understand it today.
I'd like to check it out but I need the chapter and sentence number.
(Lateran IV is a document)

Lateran IV leads to the inquisition and the RCC itself uses the term "exterminate" for actions that follow where people were being killed.

It is their own Jesuit Fordham University that says it is in fact "exterminate"



Lateran IV calls for the "extermination of heretics" -- it is a supposedly infallible ecumenical council.


Fordham - a Jesuit web site and university.
FORDHAM – (Jesuit)

The Fourth Lateran Council, the council that dogmatized transubstantiation, offered indulgences to those who would "exterminate heretics" and participate in a Crusade. Since this council refers to the RCC's influence over the state (John 19:11), it points to the fact that the state was acting at the command of the RCC. The council declared (http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp
Internet History Sourcebooks Project

CANON 3
“Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff [the Pope], that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action. The same law is to be observed in regard to those
who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land.”

 

[BobRyan]

CatholicDigest11/1997pg100


Catholic Digest 11/1997 pg 100
The question:

A Baptist family who lives across the street gave me a book called the “Trail of Blood”, by J.M. Carroll. It attacks Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism, indulgences, purgatory, and so on. But I am writing to learn if there is anything in history that would justify the following quotation:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“The world has Never seen anything to compare with the persecution heaped upon the Baptists by the Catholic hierarchy of the Dark Ages. The Pope was the world’s dictator. This is why the Anabaptists before the Reformation called the Pope the Anti-Christ”. Then: “Fifty million died by persecution over a period of 1200 years because of the Catholic Church”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The answer from Fr. Ken Ryan of Catholic Digest:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“There weren’t any Baptists until 1609, generally thought of as a year occurring after the Dark Ages. (that is why the article above includes Anabaptists) Anabaptists (means anti-baptism of infants – so they re-baptized them as adults) means “re-baptizers” and was a name given to groups existing in the 3rd, 4th, 11th and 12th centuries but they had no connection with the violent civil-religious (Catholic) reformers who appeared in 1521 at Zwickau in Saxony. These 16th century Anabaptists rejected Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism and Lutheran justification by faith, among other things, and intended to substitute a new “Kingdom of God” for the social and civil order of their time. John Leyden was proclaimed King of New Sion at Munster where museums and libraries were destroyed and polygamy was introduced. This group AND Many others were Exterminated during the Peasants Wars by a Combination of civil and religious authority. Whether they were persecuted or punished depends on your point of view”

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Lateran IV leads to the inquisition and the RCC itself uses the term "exterminate" for actions that follow where people were being killed.

It is their own Jesuit Fordham University that says it is in fact "exterminate"



Lateran IV calls for the "extermination of heretics" -- it is a supposedly infallible ecumenical council.


Fordham - a Jesuit web site and university.
FORDHAM – (Jesuit)

The Fourth Lateran Council, the council that dogmatized transubstantiation, offered indulgences to those who would "exterminate heretics" and participate in a Crusade. Since this council refers to the RCC's influence over the state (John 19:11), it points to the fact that the state was acting at the command of the RCC. The council declared (http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp
Internet History Sourcebooks Project

CANON 3
“Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff [the Pope], that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action. The same law is to be observed in regard to those
who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land.”

Considering the large number of "heretics" the Catholic Church has killed, I'm inclined to believe this document actually did say to "exterminate."

 

[Prayer Warrior]

CatholicDigest11/1997pg100


Catholic Digest 11/1997 pg 100
The question:

A Baptist family who lives across the street gave me a book called the “Trail of Blood”, by J.M. Carroll. It attacks Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism, indulgences, purgatory, and so on. But I am writing to learn if there is anything in history that would justify the following quotation:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“The world has Never seen anything to compare with the persecution heaped upon the Baptists by the Catholic hierarchy of the Dark Ages. The Pope was the world’s dictator. This is why the Anabaptists before the Reformation called the Pope the Anti-Christ”. Then: “Fifty million died by persecution over a period of 1200 years because of the Catholic Church”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The answer from Fr. Ken Ryan of Catholic Digest:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“There weren’t any Baptists until 1609, generally thought of as a year occurring after the Dark Ages. (that is why the article above includes Anabaptists) Anabaptists (means anti-baptism of infants – so they re-baptized them as adults) means “re-baptizers” and was a name given to groups existing in the 3rd, 4th, 11th and 12th centuries but they had no connection with the violent civil-religious (Catholic) reformers who appeared in 1521 at Zwickau in Saxony. These 16th century Anabaptists rejected Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism and Lutheran justification by faith, among other things, and intended to substitute a new “Kingdom of God” for the social and civil order of their time. John Leyden was proclaimed King of New Sion at Munster where museums and libraries were destroyed and polygamy was introduced. This group AND Many others were Exterminated during the Peasants Wars by a Combination of civil and religious authority. Whether they were persecuted or punished depends on your point of view”

The link at the top of this post went to WND, not Catholic Digest.

 

[Marymog]

When did I say she used hateful "words"??

I said her lies and support of Rollo's lies were MOTIVATED by hate.
LEARN the difference . . .

You said GG hates the CC and proliferates lies about it.

I asked you how you know of hate in her heart.

You said you don’t judge hearts you judge words and we are judged by what we say and GG is no different.

Soooooo I ASK YOU AGAIN what words did she use that were hateful?

Where did you say her lies and support of Rollo’s lies were motivated by hate? I can’t find that post.

Patient Mary

 

[Marymog]

Well, maybe it's not a good idea to trust an atheist to get his quotes about Christianity right?

No, not right.

Do you believe Athiest are incapable of accurately quoting historical records and telling the truth about Christian history????

Is your intent to keep going after me personally or are you going to even TRY and provide ANY evidence that the links I linked are not accurate?

Patient/Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Not even remotely true.

What is true in "real life" is -
1. The RCC did not pen a single word of the Bible.
2. the Jews - not the RCC - were writing the OT and that even includes books before Christ that do not belong in the OT.
3. Not a single writer of the NT knew anything about the RCC.
4. it was all complete before the start of the 2nd century.
5. Nobody in the OT or NT was saying "sorry - can't read the Bible till the RCC comes along a few hundred years from now to tell me what to read".

Acts 17:11 "they studied the SCRIPTURES daily to see IF those things were so"

Hi Bob.

Can you provide the historical record that shows that all Christian Churches in the start of the 2nd Century was reading from the same 27 books and only 27 books that you are reading from in your bible?

 

[Prayer Warrior]

No, not right.

Do you believe Athiest are incapable of accurately quoting historical records and telling the truth about Christian history????

Is your intent to keep going after me personally or are you going to even TRY and provide ANY evidence that the links I linked are not accurate?

Patient/Curious Mary

This is what I said: "Wow, Mary you resorted to an ATHEIST source to prove your point? And a Roman Catholic one--no surprise there."

How could you possibly construe this as a personal attack against you? I've learned to consider the source. Why would a Christian use an atheist website to prove a point about Christianity??? I've done a lot of research over the years, and I don't think it's a good idea. If we can't find more reliable sources, then something is wrong with our argument. I'm not attacking you, but how you supported your argument.

Bob Ryan has offered plenty of support for his argument, but the Catholics on this thread have disparaged his sources as being inaccurate. You can't have it both ways--you use whatever sources you want and then put down the sources of others.

I didn't even say anything about your using Wikipedia as your third source. We ALL know Wikipedia can be totally unreliable depending on who put the info in, so I'm questioning all three of your sources without attacking you personally.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You said GG hates the CC and proliferates lies about it.

I asked you how you know of hate in her heart.
You said you don’t judge hearts you judge words and we are judged by what we say and GG is no different.

Soooooo I ASK YOU AGAIN what words did she use that were hateful?
Where did you say her lies and support of Rollo’s lies were motivated by hate? I can’t find that post.

Patient Mary

Pay attention.

In post #1067, GG stated that she could not condemn Rollo's lies about the Knights of Columbus having supposedly "murdered millions".
In post #1069 - YOU challenged her about that - but you've conveniently forgotten about that.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. It's not simply the LIES - but the support of anti-Catholic lies.
So, instead of condemning ME for exposing her and Rollo- let them fight their OWN battles and butt out . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

CatholicDigest11/1997pg100

Catholic Digest 11/1997 pg 100
The question:
A Baptist family who lives across the street gave me a book called the “Trail of Blood”, by J.M. Carroll. It attacks Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism, indulgences, purgatory, and so on. But I am writing to learn if there is anything in history that would justify the following quotation:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“The world has Never seen anything to compare with the persecution heaped upon the Baptists by the Catholic hierarchy of the Dark Ages. The Pope was the world’s dictator. This is why the Anabaptists before the Reformation called the Pope the Anti-Christ”. Then: “Fifty million died by persecution over a period of 1200 years because of the Catholic Church”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The answer from Fr. Ken Ryan of Catholic Digest:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“There weren’t any Baptists until 1609, generally thought of as a year occurring after the Dark Ages. (that is why the article above includes Anabaptists) Anabaptists (means anti-baptism of infants – so they re-baptized them as adults) means “re-baptizers” and was a name given to groups existing in the 3rd, 4th, 11th and 12th centuries but they had no connection with the violent civil-religious (Catholic) reformers who appeared in 1521 at Zwickau in Saxony. These 16th century Anabaptists rejected Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism and Lutheran justification by faith, among other things, and intended to substitute a new “Kingdom of God” for the social and civil order of their time. John Leyden was proclaimed King of New Sion at Munster where museums and libraries were destroyed and polygamy was introduced. This group AND Many others were Exterminated during the Peasants Wars by a Combination of civil and religious authority. Whether they were persecuted or punished depends on your point of view”

Ahhhh, yes, "Trail of Blood" - a booklet that most Baptists reject as a work fiction, let alone the rest of Protestant scholarship.
Most baptists will tell you that the Waldensians were NOT Baptists - but heretics.

Finally - the idiotic charge of "50 million" dead by persecution would have wiped out MOST of Europe. This is just another unsubstantiated number that ignorant anti-Catholics like yourself are fond of regurgitating with impunity.

Do some actual homework and try doing a better job by properly vetting the nonsense you read . . .

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Pay attention.

In post #1067, GG stated that she could not condemn Rollo's lies about the Knights of Columbus having supposedly "murdered millions".
In post #1069 - YOU challenged her about that - but you've conveniently forgotten about that.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. It's not simply the LIES - but the support of anti-Catholic lies.
So, instead of condemning ME for exposing her and Rollo- let them fight their OWN battles and butt out . . .

The Knights of Columbus represent an organization that is responsible for the death of BILLIONS!!!
I say that because of all the lost souls in the catholic church through the ages that never put their faith in Jesus, only the romanist church itself which saves NO ONE!!!!!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Ahhhh, yes, "Trail of Blood" - a booklet that most Baptists reject as a work fiction, let alone the rest of Protestant scholarship.
Most baptists will tell you that the Waldensians were NOT Baptists - but heretics.

Finally - the idiotic charge of "50 million" dead by persecution would have wiped out MOST of Europe. This is just another unsubstantiated number that ignorant anti-Catholics like yourself are fond of regurgitating with impunity.

Do some actual homework and try doing a better job by properly vetting the nonsense you read . . .

What was the actual number of people in Europe at that time?
Where do you get your figures from?

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Knights of Columbus represent an organization that is responsible for the death of BILLIONS!!!
I say that because of all the lost souls in the catholic church through the ages that never put their faith in Jesus, only the romanist church itself which saves NO ONE!!!!!

There haven't been "Billions" of Knights of Columbus in their short 130 year history, Einstein.
Your posts are as historically-bankrupt as they are stupid . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

What was the actual number of people in Europe at that time?
Where do you get your figures from?

The numbers estimated during the Medieval times were about 30-50 million - and not much higher in the Middle Ages (wikipedia).

In order for an intelligent, open-minded person to truly understand history - one would need to take EVERYTHING into consideration. They would need to REMEMBER that for centuries:

- Life expectancy was around 30-40 years of age.
- Sickness and Plagues wiped out TENS of MILLIONS
- Wars wiped out TENS of MILLIONS.

For the Catholic Church to have killed "50-500 million" people - there would have been NOBODY LEFT.
This is just a stupid charge that has NO basis in reality.