Born again requirement ?

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ScottA

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Soooo - what do YOU think Jesus meant by "water" in John 3:5?
Do we need to have a talk about "the birds and the bees?" (rhetorical)

Duh! He was talking about natural childbirth....and moving on to spiritual matters. Which, if you are not tracking with after 2000 years...perhaps we do need to have that talk.
 

twinc

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Do we need to have a talk about "the birds and the bees?" (rhetorical)

Duh! He was talking about natural childbirth....and moving on to spiritual matters. Which, if you are not tracking with after 2000 years...perhaps we do need to have that talk.
Check!
Do we need to have a talk about "the birds and the bees?" (rhetorical)

Duh! He was talking about natural childbirth....and moving on to spiritual matters. Which, if you are not tracking with after 2000 years...perhaps we do need to have that talk.

you have it all wrong - it was Nicodemus that was talking about natural childbirth - even the thief on the cross needed to be born again - in the meantime he sojourned in paradise in limbo in Abraham's bosom - - imho only Christians will be found in heaven or hell - everyone must be born again as a Christian not just Nicodemus - twinc
 

BreadOfLife

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Do we need to have a talk about "the birds and the bees?" (rhetorical)

Duh! He was talking about natural childbirth....and moving on to spiritual matters. Which, if you are not tracking with after 2000 years...perhaps we do need to have that talk.
Soooo, YOU believe Jesus was talking about amniotic fluid??
This makes absolutely NO sense in the context of His conversation with Nicodemus:

John 3:3-5
Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.”
Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”
Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.”



But - YOU would have us believe that the conversation went something like this:
John 3:3-5

Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.”
Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”
Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without first being born of amniotic fluid and Spirit.”


So YOUR rendering of this text condemns all unborn children to Hell because they were not “born of water.”

YOUR
problem is that you completely dismiss what happened just 2 chapters earlier when Jesus was baptized – and when happens immediately AFTER Jesus’ conversation with Nicodemus. Jesus and the Apostles went BAPTIZING in Judea. The conversation with Nicodemus is drenched by Baptism on BOTH sides.
 

ScottA

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Soooo, YOU believe Jesus was talking about amniotic fluid??
This makes absolutely NO sense in the context of His conversation with Nicodemus:

John 3:3-5
Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.”
Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”
Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.”



But - YOU would have us believe that the conversation went something like this:
John 3:3-5

Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.”
Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”
Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without first being born of amniotic fluid and Spirit.”


So YOUR rendering of this text condemns all unborn children to Hell because they were not “born of water.”

YOUR
problem is that you completely dismiss what happened just 2 chapters earlier when Jesus was baptized – and when happens immediately AFTER Jesus’ conversation with Nicodemus. Jesus and the Apostles went BAPTIZING in Judea. The conversation with Nicodemus is drenched by Baptism on BOTH sides.
Okay...slow down.

Nicodemus referred to natural childbirth...and Jesus went beyond that to say (in other words) that natural birth was not enough to enter the kingdom of God, but one must [also] be born again of the spirit of God: From below [and] from above.

Jesus wasn't eluding to some ritual...He...was...just...meeting him where he was. Rituals...are the things of men.

And because you have acted shocked or in disbelief just as Nicodemus did...I must refer you to Jesus' follow up comment as well. But notice that He goes on to say "Our" witness, and refers to Himself both physically and "in heaven":

John 3:10-12
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Okay...slow down.

Nicodemus referred to natural childbirth...and Jesus went beyond that to say (in other words) that natural birth was not enough to enter the kingdom of God, but one must [also] be born again of the spirit of God: From below [and] from above.

Jesus wasn't eluding to some ritual...He...was...just...meeting him where he was. Rituals...are the things of men.

And because you have acted shocked or in disbelief just as Nicodemus did...I must refer you to Jesus' follow up comment as well. But notice that He goes on to say "Our" witness, and refers to Himself both physically and "in heaven":

John 3:10-12
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
Wrong.
Nicodemus is asking Jesus how one is born again because, in verse 3, Jesus just got done telling him:
“Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.”

The whole context here is REBIRTH - not physical Birth. Jesus knew that Nicodemus wasn't an idiot who didn't know about where kids came from.
As I stated before - Jesus' entire conversation with Nicodemus is drenched by Baptism on BOTH sides.

As for your apparent rejection of ritual - they exist because we are tangible beings and God knows this.
Why do you think Jesus used physical means to heal people? He used mud to heal the blind man. He used Water to make wine instead of just making it out of nothing.

Why?? Because he knows that as physical people, we sometimes require (or understand) physical means.
He instituted Water Baptism for the same reason.
 

aspen

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What if being born again is a reaction rather than a requirement?
 
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ScottA

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As I stated before - Jesus' entire conversation with Nicodemus is drenched by Baptism on BOTH sides.
And here is your mistake...He didn't say "Baptism", He said "born."

But you have imposed your own understanding on something very simple - literally changing the words - and complicated it.
 

BreadOfLife

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And here is your mistake...He didn't say "Baptism", He said "born."

But you have imposed your own understanding on something very simple - literally changing the words - and complicated it.
And you have chosen to ignore what He said and the context in which it was written - and invent your own version. The context of Nicodemus' question was about REBIRTH.

Tell me something - why are there NO Early Church Fathers who believe this passage in John's Gospel should be rendered the way YOU see it?

Why is there a unanimous consensus in the Early Church about Baptismal Regeneration?

Why did God allow 15 centuries of Christians to be duped by the "fallacy" of Baptismal Regeneration, thereby condemning them all to Hell?
 
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ScottA

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And you have chosen to ignore what He said and the context in which it was written - and invent your own version. The context of Nicodemus' question was about REBIRTH.

Tell me something - why are there NO Early Church Fathers who believe this passage in John's Gospel should be rendered the way YOU see it?

Why is there a unanimous consensus in the Early Church about Baptismal Regeneration?

Why did God allow 15 centuries of Christians to be duped by the "fallacy" of Baptismal Regeneration, thereby condemning them all to Hell?
Well...you have the context wrong. Nicodemus' question was not about "rebirth", it was simply about what Jesus meant by being born again. To which he mistakenly thought it was absurd that one might need to re-enter the womb. So Jesus clarified the difference between birth from the womb and the new birth that is also required...as I said, He met Nicodemus where he was (in his thinking) and then filled in the missing part, and what must come next...which was the point of the whole conversation.

As for your questions regarding the church fathers and 15 centuries of discourse: It would have been "soon" according to Christ, if the church would have focused on Jesus' greater offer of building the church by revelations by the spirit of God rather than following men. So, in spite of the Holy Spirit falling upon some, the church suffered the self-imposed delay of further "waiting upon the Lord", although He had already come.

I have told you the truth. When it comes to you from God...as it is written: "there will be weeping an gnashing of teeth."
 

epostle1

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What if being born again is a reaction rather than a requirement?
Why can't it be both?

The Incarnation was the event in salvation history that raised matter to previously unknown heights. All created matter was “good” from the start (Gen 1:25), but was “glorified” by the Incarnation.

Ritual and “physicality” were not abolished by the coming of Christ. Quite the contrary: it was the Incarnation that fully established sacramentalism as a principle in the Christian religion. The latter may be defined as the belief that matter can convey grace. It’s really that simple, at bottom, or in essence. God uses matter both to help us live better lives (sanctification) and to ultimately save us (regeneration and justification), starting with baptism itself.

The atonement or redemption of Christ (His death on the cross for us) was not purely “spiritual.” It was as physical (“sacramental,” if you will) as it could be, as well as spiritual. Protestants often piously refer to “the Blood of Jesus,” and rightly so (see Rev 5:9; Eph 1:7; Col 1:14; Heb 9:12; 1 Pet 1:2; 1 Jn 1:7; etc.). This is explicitly sacramental thinking.

Sacramentalism and the Bible

It was the very suffering of Jesus in the flesh, and the voluntary shedding of His own blood, which constituted the crucial, essential aspect of His work as our Redeemer and Savior. One can’t avoid this: “he was bruised for our iniquities” (Is 53:5).

So it is curious that many appear to possess a pronounced hostility to the sacramental belief in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, seeing that it flows so straightforwardly from the Incarnation and the Crucifixion itself. This brings to mind an analogy to the Jewish and Muslim disdain for the Incarnation as an unthinkable (impossible?) task for God to undertake. They view the Incarnation in the same way a majority of Protestants regard the Eucharist.

For them, God wouldn’t or couldn’t or shouldn’t become a man (such a thought is blasphemous; unthinkable!). For many (not all) Protestants, God wouldn’t or couldn’t or shouldn’t become substantially, physically, sacramentally present under the outward forms of bread and wine. The dynamic or underlying premise is the same. If Christ could become man, He can surely will to be actually and truly present in what was formerly (and still looks like) bread and wine, once consecrated.

The New Testament is filled with incarnational and sacramental indications: instances of matter conveying grace. The Church is the “Body” of Christ (1 Cor 12:27; Eph 1:22-23; 5:30), and marriage (including its physical aspects) is described as a direct parallel to Christ and the Church (Eph 5:22-33; esp. 29-32). Jesus even seems to literally equate Himself in some sense with the Church, saying He was “persecuted” by Paul, after the Resurrection (Acts 9:5).

Not only that; in St. Paul’s teaching, one can find a repeated theme of identifying very graphically and literally with Christ and His sufferings (see: 2 Cor 4:10; Phil 2:17; 3:10; 2 Tim 4:6; and above all, Col 1:24).

Matter conveys grace all over the place in Scripture:
  • baptism confers regeneration (Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Pet 3:21; cf. Mk 16:16; Rom 6:3-4; 1 Cor 6:11; Titus 3:5).
  • Paul’s “handkerchiefs” healed the sick (Acts 19:12),
  • as did even Peter’s shadow (Acts 5:15),
  • and of course, Jesus’ garment (Mt 9:20-22)
  • and saliva mixed with dirt (Jn 9:5 ff.; Mk 8:22-25),
  • as well as water from the pool of Siloam (Jn 9:7).
  • Anointing with oil for healing is encouraged (Jas 5:14).
  • We also observe in Scripture the laying on of hands for the purpose of ordination and commissioning (Acts 6:6; 1 Tim 4:14; 2 Tim 1:6) to facilitate the initial outpouring of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17-19; 13:3; 19:6),
  • and for healing (Mk 6:5; Lk 13:13; Acts 9:17-18).
  • Even under the old covenant, a dead man was raised simply by coming in contact with the bones of the prophet Elisha (2 Kings 13:21) — which is also one of the direct evidences for the Catholic practice of the veneration of relics (itself an extension of the sacramental principle).
Not ‘magic charms’

Sacramentalism is a “product” of the Incarnation, just as the Church also is. But we must also understand that the sacraments are not “magic charms.” The Church also teaches that one should have the correct “interior disposition” when receiving them.

The sacrament of the Eucharist, for example, will not have a positive effect or convey grace if received by a person in mortal sin (see 1 Cor 11:27-30; CCC #1415), and priestly absolution is null and void without the necessary prerequisite of true repentance.

This is all the more true of sacramentals (things like holy water, scapulars, blessings, miraculous medals, genuflection, etc.), which depend entirely on the inner state of the one using or receiving them. Intent, sincerity, motivation, piety, and suchlike are all supremely important in the Catholic life.

The scapular will not “work” for a person who neglects the pursuit of righteousness and obedience and views it as a “magic charm” (which is occultic superstition) rather than a Catholic sacramental. A piece of cloth cannot rescind the normal duties of the Catholic life. Nor is God some sort of celestial “vending machine.” He wants our hearts; he wants us — not meaningless outward obedience without the proper interior motivation, in love, and by His grace. Sacraments help us, but we must do our part, too.
http://www.themichigancatholic.org/2014/07/christ-didnt-abolish-ritual-he-perfected-it/
 
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BreadOfLife

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And you have chosen to ignore what He said and invent your own version.
Well...you have the context wrong. Nicodemus' question was not about "rebirth", it was simply about what Jesus meant by being born again. To which he mistakenly thought it was absurd that one might need to re-enter the womb. So Jesus clarified the difference between birth from the womb and the new birth that is also required...as I said, He met Nicodemus where he was (in his thinking) and then filled in the missing part, and what must come next...which was the point of the whole conversation.

As for your questions regarding the church fathers and 15 centuries of discourse: It would have been "soon" according to Christ, if the church would have focused on Jesus' greater offer of building the church by revelations by the spirit of God rather than following men. So, in spite of the Holy Spirit falling upon some, the church suffered the self-imposed delay of further "waiting upon the Lord", although He had already come.

I have told you the truth. When it comes to you from God...as it is written: "there will be weeping an gnashing of teeth."
No - you've told me YOUR version of the truth - NOT the truth as taught by Christ's Church for 2000 years.

Jesus told Nicodemus that a person must be born again - to which Nicodemus became confused. In verse 5 - Jesus wasn't explaining the difference between natural birth and spiritual rebirth. He was telling Nicodemus that a person must be Baptized to experience rebirth. Jesus echoes this sentiment in Mark 16:16.
John's Gospel wasn't written the way it was by accident. He saturates his first 3 chapters with Baptism.

Jesus goes on to chastise Nicodemus for being a Teacher of Israel and not understanding this - as foretold by Ezekiel (Ezek. 36:25-27).
 

ScottA

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No - you've told me YOUR version of the truth - NOT the truth as taught by Christ's Church for 2000 years.

Jesus told Nicodemus that a person must be born again - to which Nicodemus became confused. In verse 5 - Jesus wasn't explaining the difference between natural birth and spiritual rebirth. He was telling Nicodemus that a person must be Baptized to experience rebirth. Jesus echoes this sentiment in Mark 16:16.
John's Gospel wasn't written the way it was by accident. He saturates his first 3 chapters with Baptism.

Jesus goes on to chastise Nicodemus for being a Teacher of Israel and not understanding this - as foretold by Ezekiel (Ezek. 36:25-27).
Nighty, night then...as you were.
 

ScottA

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Thank you for that cop-out of a response.
You are projecting your own position. As I said before:
And because you have acted shocked or in disbelief just as Nicodemus did...I must refer you to Jesus' follow up comment as well. But notice that He goes on to say "Our" witness, and refers to Himself both physically and "in heaven":

John 3:10-12
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
...But you will not listen.
 

BreadOfLife

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You are projecting your own position. As I said before:
...But you will not listen.
And, as I stated before - not ONE Early Church Father interprets John 3 in the way that YOU do.
Your view is a fairly recent invention in the span of Church history. So, you have to ask yourself - why would God hide the truth about spiritual rebirth from His Church for 1500+ years??
 

mjrhealth

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NOT the truth as taught by Christ's Church for 2000 years.
What truth, te htruth that your religion magicked up, your truth that murdereded men for not wanting to be a part of it, your truth that condemns men to death and puts them in bondage, your truth that keeps men from God and causes them to serve and worship idols, your truth that twists scripture to make men believe a lie, your truth, that is all it is, a big lie. You are a catholic by name and by nature you are your church, what a man joins himself to is what he becomes.

1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

all you can do is promote catholism for it is all you know. How many people have you killed spiritually today.
 

BreadOfLife

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What truth, te htruth that your religion magicked up, your truth that murdereded men for not wanting to be a part of it, your truth that condemns men to death and puts them in bondage, your truth that keeps men from God and causes them to serve and worship idols, your truth that twists scripture to make men believe a lie, your truth, that is all it is, a big lie. You are a catholic by name and by nature you are your church, what a man joins himself to is what he becomes.

1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

all you can do is promote catholism for it is all you know. How many people have you killed spiritually today.
It always cracks me up when angry anti-Catholics point to evil men in Catholic Church history while completely overlooking the murderers in their own past.

I was wondering when you were going to chime in with your insane, angry gibberish. A day without your misspellings and general butchery of the English language is a day without a smile . . .


PS - Ummmm, Catholics don't "worship idols" my dishonest friend . . .
 

mjrhealth

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It always cracks me up when angry anti-Catholics point to evil men in Catholic Church history while completely overlooking the murderers in their own past.

I was wondering when you were going to chime in with your insane, angry gibberish. A day without your misspellings and general butchery of the English language is a day without a smile . . .


PS - Ummmm, Catholics don't "worship idols" my dishonest friend . .
nah just anti, anti Christ, and you do that is why you get so angry at people when they tell you teh truth, your religion is your idol. it is all you speak of, its what you promote, its what you protect, its what you are, and woe betide any one speak against it, it is teh reason why God said we should not have Idols, men defend them tooth and nail, just as you do, and yes all religion is not from God, just remember yours is teh mother of them all, like mother like daughter,

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

and all will be judged.

my typing is teh least of your worries, one day you will stand before God and be held accountable for persecuting Him and His children.
 

BreadOfLife

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nah just anti, anti Christ, and you do that is why you get so angry at people when they tell you teh truth, your religion is your idol. it is all you speak of, its what you promote, its what you protect, its what you are, and woe betide any one speak against it, it is teh reason why God said we should not have Idols, men defend them tooth and nail, just as you do, and yes all religion is not from God, just remember yours is teh mother of them all, like mother like daughter,

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

and all will be judged.

my typing is teh least of your worries, one day you will stand before God and be held accountable for persecuting Him and His children.
First of all - thanks for repeatedly quoting the Catholic Canon of Scripture.

Secondly - most reputable Protestant scholars have LONG-abandoned the silly idea that the Catholic Chuirch is the "Whore of Babylon".

Finally - you have to actually BE a child of God to say that others are persecuting you AS a child of God.
Jesus said THIS about His Church:
Luke 10:16

Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."


Good luck rejecting Him . . .