Both Pretribbers and Preterists are clearly wrong that great tribulation begins with the DOTL.

[Marilyn C]

Have you read romans 9-11?

Once the omissions start, and are incubated, the Bible can say most anything.

Yes and it declares the Jesus is the holy root that nourishes us.

 

[Marilyn C]

Why are you taking "the new man" description literally, as if that label has anything to do with anything physical? It doesn't. The new man is simply another way of referring to the church. We are the new man. We're one body. We're the temple of God. We're the body of Christ. And, yes, we are the bride of Christ. There's no reason to take labels like "the new man" or "the bride of Christ" in a physical sense rather than in a spiritual sense.

We are NOT a male and a female - but the NEW MAN, which we are to put on and come to a perfect MAN. MAN as in incorporating male and female characteristics. We are not one or the other.

 

[Marilyn C]

Let's assume that when Jesus talked about one being taken and one left that the ones taken refer to those who will be taken up to meet Christ in the air when He comes from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17). What does Jesus say happens to those who are left?

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.” 37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?” So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

According to Jesus, those who are left will be killed just as those who were left outside the ark were killed in Noah's day and those who were left in Sodom were killed in Lot's day. They will become bird food, according to Jesus.

But as you say `as in the days of Noah.` The ONE taken was taken away in the flood in judgment.

 

[PinSeeker]

@Spiritual Israelite

Hey I just got back from my daily run and thought I’d explain in little more detail my football analogy. Or parable… <smile>

Yeah, so… <smile> …God is obviously the:

• Coach Who puts you in (and keeps you in) the game
• Kicker/Punter Who kicks you the ball
• Quarterback Who throws you the ball or hands it off to you

And you have been… infused… with the… “talent” <chuckles> …and the all-in-for-the-team attitude of Jesus… and are even wearing His jersey (#1, obviously), so you will not fail, even if it looks inevitable at times.

And to your little… objection… that “a kick returner can choose whether to receive a kickoff or punt or not... can choose to just let the ball go if they want or they can choose to receive it,” regardless of the case, it’s still your ball, so… you… as the returner… received it. <smile> It’s your team’s ball, and you are on offense. So, you know, you still received the ball… <chuckles>

Ohhhh… now, you might, um, you know, forget the play the Coach or QB called, or run the wrong way from time to time, or even fumble (GASP!). These are sins… but don’t worry, the Coach will still keep you in, forgiving you for your miscues (because you are wearing Jesus’s #1 jersey)… and because the Father “drafted you” and has “coached you up,” and Jesus Himself is the author and finisher/perfecter of your… “receiving,” “running,” and “catching.” If you fumble, you have the Holy Spirit, so you’ll recover the ball… remember the play… overcome all adversity… <smile> And ultimately, you will score… and win. Because Jesus long ago sealed the final outcome…

That was fun. LOL!

Yeah cheers. Grace and peace to you. <smile>

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes. But, what is described in Matthew 24:23-26 is not included in this account, so that's why there's a gap in this account that isn't there in the other accounts. Can you tell me what your understanding is of Luke 21:20-24 and what you think the times of the Gentiles refers to?

Gentile refers to any person who is non-Jewish

As stated in post #696 above, it's my opinion that Luke 21:24 & Revelation 11:2 is the same future 42 month event in Jerusalem being trampled under foot by the gentiles

It's my opinion that Israel's blind leaders are going to take the Muslim Holy site at the dome of the rock, the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem and they will start building a future Jewish temple, this will cause the gentile Arab Muslims around the world to surround Jerusalem with their armies in trampling it down for 42 months in fulfilling the time of the gentiles, a future event unfulfilled

Opinion: Israel's position in the world presently is at an all time low, even US president Donald Trump has withdrawn support, and has openly condemned the absolute brutality by Israel regarding the present Palestine and Lebanon conflicts, killing innocent women and children indiscriminately

My opinion in observance of the scripture

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Truth7t7]

So, while those two verses are similar, they don't have the same context since one refers to earthly Jerusalem and relates to the destruction of physical temple buildings while the other refers to the heavenly Jerusalem and persecution against the spiritual temple of God (the church).

I strongly disagree, both verses Luke 21:24 & Revelation 11:2 are speaking of an earthly Jerusalem

You neglect to observe the context of scripture in Revelation Chapter 11 and replace the literal physical Jerusalem on earth with a spiritual New Jerusalem

You will closely note Revelation 11:2 that the trampling under foot of Jerusalem will be 42 months, heavenly New Jerusalem has no earthly time of 42 months, its eternal

You will closely note that their dead bodies will lay in a literal street where Jesus was crucified, earthly "Jerusalem"

You will closely note that those upon the earth will celebrate their deaths

Revelation 11:2KJV
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

What is your understanding of the reference to the temple of God in Revelation 11:2? It can't refer to a future physical temple because we (the church) are the temple of God (Ephesians 2:19-22, 2 Cor 6:16).

Below you see the word "Temple" and the word "Delusion" found in only two places in my KJV Holy Bible, both instances are in association with a "Temple" with 2 Thessalonians 2:4 showing future events that surround the future second coming of Jesus Christ

Yes scripture strongly suggest that there will be some sort of a temple in Jerusalem, with renewed animal sacrifice, and yes this is an abomination to the cross of Calvary

Scripture Clearly Shows This "Temple" and "Delusion" are future unfulfilled

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Isaiah 66:1-4KJV
1 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

 

[David in NJ]

I strongly disagree, both verses Luke 21:24 & Revelation 11:2 are speaking of an earthly Jerusalem

You neglect to observe the context of scripture in Revelation Chapter 11 and replace the literal physical Jerusalem on earth with a spiritual New Jerusalem

You will closely note Revelation 11:2 that the trampling under foot of Jerusalem will be 42 months, heavenly New Jerusalem has no earthly time of 42 months, its eternal

You will closely note that their dead bodies will lay in a literal street where Jesus was crucified, earthly "Jerusalem"

You will closely note that those upon the earth will celebrate their deaths

Revelation 11:2KJV
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


Below you see the word "Temple" and the word "Delusion" found in only two places in my KJV Holy Bible, both instances are in association with a "Temple" with 2 Thessalonians 2:4 showing future events that surround the future second coming of Jesus Christ

Yes scripture strongly suggest that there will be some sort of a temple in Jerusalem, with renewed animal sacrifice, and yes this is an abomination to the cross of Calvary

Scripture Clearly Shows This "Temple" and "Delusion" are future unfulfilled

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Isaiah 66:1-4KJV
1 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

EXCELLENT Truth that you brought forth showing the clear connection of Isaiah 66:1-4 with 2 Thess 2:1-12

That's how God wrote His Word down for us = connect the dots and you will see the picture

 

[rebuilder 454]

No I believe God`s purpose for Israel will be fulfilled.

I agree that in Ruth Jesus is presented as the kinsman Redeemer.

However, Ruth chose to come into Israel and thus is a Jew.

The kinsman Redeemer had to finally `marry` the woman. That is a picture of Jesus `marrying` connecting (again) with Israel, symbolically the `wife.` (Isa. 54: 5 & 6) This Jesus confirmed to Israel with the parables of the wedding feast.

The Body of Christ revelation was not revealed at that time.

No.
Ruth was gentile.
Gentile lineage.
The bride is gentile.
The wife is Jewish.
Paul made the distunction calling himself a Jew and the jews his brethren .

 

[rebuilder 454]

New Man is different from an earthly man. The New Man is like Christ with both male and female characteristics.

...and most everyone agrees with that.
Are you replacement theology?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Great response, were in agreement!

You haven't posted scripture that supports a pre-trib rapture because it doesn't exist

Sad you can not honestly engage in conversation
You did what I was sure of.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You interpreted his words the way you interpret scripture. Completely out of context. He was saying that you are deceived by a doctrine that comes from the serpent. He is not calling you a serpent, he's saying you are believing a lie coming from the serpent, which is Satan. You believe in a doctrine of demons, but that doesn't mean you're not a Christian. It just means you're believing in false doctrine, as many Christians do.

And LOL at you talking about someone else not debating like an adult. You are the poster child of the forum for showing everyone how to debate like a child rather than like an adult. You whined like a little baby for a series of multiple posts about no one addressing your arguments, then someone challenged you to a debate of the scriptures, and you ran away. Which shows that you're all talk.

So you are Following Satan as the accuser of the brethren.
All talk and evil against the brethren
Sad.

Suits you somehow ...Accuse then run away.
Plain childish.
You have always spewed hate and nastiness.
You must be one miserable individual.

 

[Truth7t7]

Sad you can not honestly engage in conversation
You did what I was sure of.

Fact of the matter is you haven't provided scripture to support your claims, a pre-trib rapture doesn't exist in scripture, it's a man made fairy tale of false teachings by John N. Darby 1870's and promoted by Adulterer C.I. Scofields 1909 reference Bible that maintained Darby's false teachings in the margins