Built On The Wrong Apostle

[bbyrd009]

I didn’t say they were divine....i said they were authorities

"I know the wolves will rush in as soon as i leave, not sparing the flock"

 

[FHII]

Yes, He did 'shut it down' right away. But let's put all of that passage IN CONTEXT. Jesus said, "rather the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like one who serves." Jesus is literally saying there will be a leader and a greatest amongst them. He is just telling them how to act WHEN they are leading.

If you are going to try to put it in context then quote the whole verse and the verses around it.

Luke 22:25-28 KJV
And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. [26] But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. [27] For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth. [28] Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.

Jesus wasn't saying one would be greatest or a leader at all. He said they weren't to be that way. They were all servants and he included himself in that. But you got it right.. He was telling THEM (not just one of them) how to act when THEY are leading. Jesus was putting them on the same level.

Where does scripture say that Peter was the weakest amongst the Apostles? I can't find it.

Then...

Here is what scripture does say about Peter being weak:

Seems like you can answer your own question! I said he was temporarily the weakest and explained why. Do you disagree with that reason?

You can look at it as something encouraging for Peter and in one way it was, but it was more of a stern and dire warning. Yes, Peter did strengthen his brethren after he was converted (though... Funny thing: Jesus didn't say he would specifically strengthen the other apostles, though at times he did, and they strengthen him as well) but to focus on that is missing the point. The point is that Peter had no business strenthening anyone until he got himself in order first, because he was about to make the biggest mistake of his life.

 

[mjrhealth]

Which interpretation is the most authoritative?

None of them.

 

[FHII]

I believe what Jesus said when he said to Peter "you are rock and upon this rock I will build my Church". Jesus did not say this to any other Apostle. Do you believe what Jesus said?

No he didn't. He said thou art peter and upon this rock... Yes I know all the arguments and word replacements folks give. But the rock Jesus built his church on was the revealtion that Jesus was the Christ, the son of the living God. That is a reoccuring theme throughout the NT, yet no where do we hear about the church being built on Peter. We hear it was built on the foundation of the prophets and apostles (meaning their teaching) but not on Peter alone. Heck... We don't even hear about him starting or even being head of a church in the NT!

That's not to say he didn't play a big roll and I am not saying he didn't start or head a church.

I agree with ALL of scripture which says that Jesus was the chief cornerstone AND Jesus built his Church on Peter AND Jesus gave Peter and Peter alone the keys to the kingdom of heaven

... But you don't agree with the scriptures that say it was built on the apostles and prophets: all of them not just Peter?

Do you think that Peter went to Rome? Do you think he testified there? Well he told Paul and Paul alone the was sent to Rome to bear witness. So by your your reasoning... I guess Peter was never in Rome to bear witness.

Let me ask you... Where would the church be if it was built on Peter alone? What if we only had 15 chapters in acts? What if Paul was never called? What if there was no book of Hebrews, James, 1, 2 and 3 John or revelations? What if there were no gospels? Perhaps... There would be no gentile church and if there was... We couldn't eat at the same table as Jewish Christians? I am illustrating absurdity here to make the point that it wasn't built on Peter alone.

 

[H. Richard]

The Church of His Body is built on Paul's gospel of grace. The church Jesus was talking about will be built when Jesus returns and sets up the promised Jewish kingdom on this earth.

 

[amadeus]

Hi Pia,

If He is able to teach anyone and everyone that opens their heart, soul and mind to Him what do we do when we have three different interpretations from three different people (or churches) of the same scripture passage? Which interpretation is the most authoritative?

Mary

Follow one who is not blind:

"And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?" Luke 6:39

Who is not blind among them? Any one of them whose eyes have been anointed with eyesalve:

"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see." Rev 6:18

 

[verzanumi24]

This article was written by me and used on Christian debate sites. I believe it to be true based on the scriptures given.

Subject: Built on the wrong apostle:

It is believed, by many, that the grace church was started by Peter on the day of Pentecost. But if you look close all that is written in Acts, spoken by Peter, is to get the Jews (Israel) to accept Jesus as their Messiah and king so that He would return and setup the kingdom that was promised in the covenant God made with Abraham. This covenant was not made to the Gentiles.

The promist God made to Abraham was not bassed on race, but on faith.


Galatians 3:29 (ASV)
29 And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.




Galatians 3:6-18 (ASV)
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed.
9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them.
11 Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith;
12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men: Though it be but a man's covenant, yet when it hath been confirmed, no one maketh it void, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 Now this I say: A covenant confirmed beforehand by God, the law, which came four hundred and thirty years after, doth not disannul, so as to make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no more of promise: but God hath granted it to Abraham by promise.

Even in Acts 8 & 9 where we see Saul being converted it was still time for the Jews to accept Jesus as their king so that He could return and set up the promised kingdom.

Luke 13:6 10
The Parable of the Barren Fig Tree 6 He also spoke this parable: "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none.
7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, 'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?'
8 But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it.
9 And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.'"
NKJV

God set the Jewish nation aside and went to the Gentiles when He, in 70 AD, had the Temple destroyed.

We see that Saul/Paul was chosen by God to be THE apostle to the Gentiles. His gospel of the grace of God was hidden in God and revealed to him (Paul), not the 12.

Jesus did set up the kingdom just before He left. Daniel under God's insperation prophecied that God would set up His kindom during the time that God has allocated for man's government. Noticed in Daniel 2: 44 it doesn't say that after the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. It say, in the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed.


Daniel 2:44 (ASV)
44 And in the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall the sovereignty thereof be left to another people; but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Church people are sitting around waiting for Jesus instead of faithfully doing what He commaned to be done, which is to go out and preach the kingdom of God and use the gifts He has given them to make the Earth like it is in Heaven. When one truly understand that the kingdom of God was set up by Jesus before He left, it will tottally change the the way one go about their life. You will not look to others to aprove of what you do or say. One will see that Jesus left His people in charge of the world, and not the politicians.

When Jesus returns He said He is going to take out of His kingdom all those who sin and cause offense.

Matthew 13:41-42 (ASV)
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity,
42 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

If Jesus didn't set up the kingdom of God before He left for Heaven, He wouldn't have said it the way He did. This is why just before Jesus left, He authorzed His people to go out and bring the world under their influence. In fact, so successful, the early Church was in doing that, that they were accused of turing the world upside down.


Acts 17:6 (ASV)
6 And when they found them not, they dragged Jason and certain brethren before the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;

 

[H. Richard]

The promist God made to Abraham was not bassed on race, but on faith.


Galatians 3:29 (ASV)
29 And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.




Galatians 3:6-18 (ASV)
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed.
9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them.
11 Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith;
12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men: Though it be but a man's covenant, yet when it hath been confirmed, no one maketh it void, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 Now this I say: A covenant confirmed beforehand by God, the law, which came four hundred and thirty years after, doth not disannul, so as to make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no more of promise: but God hath granted it to Abraham by promise.






Jesus did set up the kingdom just before He left. Daniel under God's insperation prophecied that God would set up His kindom during the time that God has allocated for man's government. Noticed in Daniel 2: 44 it doesn't say that after the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. It say, in the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed.


Daniel 2:44 (ASV)
44 And in the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall the sovereignty thereof be left to another people; but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Church people are sitting around waiting for Jesus instead of faithfully doing what He commaned to be done, which is to go out and preach the kingdom of God and use the gifts He has given them to make the Earth like it is in Heaven. When one truly understand that the kingdom of God was set up by Jesus before He left, it will tottally change the the way one go about their life. You will not look to others to aprove of what you do or say. One will see that Jesus left His people in charge of the world, and not the politicians.

When Jesus returns He said He is going to take out of His kingdom all those who sin and cause offense.

Matthew 13:41-42 (ASV)
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity,
42 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

If Jesus didn't set up the kingdom of God before He left for Heaven, He wouldn't have said it the way He did. This is why just before Jesus left, He authorzed His people to go out and bring the world under their influence. In fact, so successful, the early Church was in doing that, that they were accused of turing the world upside down.


Acts 17:6 (ASV)
6 And when they found them not, they dragged Jason and certain brethren before the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;

***

So you are saying that the Jews never had to keep the law of Moses, right??????

 

[Marymog]

If you are going to try to put it in context then quote the whole verse and the verses around it.

Luke 22:25-28 KJV
And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. [26] But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. [27] For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth. [28] Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.

Jesus wasn't saying one would be greatest or a leader at all. He said they weren't to be that way. They were all servants and he included himself in that. But you got it right.. He was telling THEM (not just one of them) how to act when THEY are leading. Jesus was putting them on the same level.

Then...

Seems like you can answer your own question! I said he was temporarily the weakest and explained why. Do you disagree with that reason?

You can look at it as something encouraging for Peter and in one way it was, but it was more of a stern and dire warning. Yes, Peter did strengthen his brethren after he was converted (though... Funny thing: Jesus didn't say he would specifically strengthen the other apostles, though at times he did, and they strengthen him as well) but to focus on that is missing the point. The point is that Peter had no business strenthening anyone until he got himself in order first, because he was about to make the biggest mistake of his life.

Thank you.

Twist scripture all you want. Jesus said...he that is THE GREATEST AMONG YOU.... and HE THAT IS CHIEF.....which means exactly what Jesus said. There will be a greatest and a chief. Scripture later sets up a hierarchy for The Church with elders, bishops and overseers.....which are the GREATEST AMONG US and our "CHIEFS". Weird, huh? The Apostles and early church leaders fulfilled Jesus words.

Yes, I disagree with your reasoning. Just because scripture talks about Peters "temporary" weakness does not mean the other Apostles didn't have it also. They also ran away...and they all came back.

You failed to show me where scripture says what you think it says which is that Peter was (temporarily) the weakest amongst the Apostles. Would you care to try again?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

No he didn't. He said thou art peter and upon this rock... Yes I know all the arguments and word replacements folks give. But the rock Jesus built his church on was the revealtion that Jesus was the Christ, the son of the living God. That is a reoccuring theme throughout the NT, yet no where do we hear about the church being built on Peter. We hear it was built on the foundation of the prophets and apostles (meaning their teaching) but not on Peter alone. Heck... We don't even hear about him starting or even being head of a church in the NT!

That's not to say he didn't play a big roll and I am not saying he didn't start or head a church.


... But you don't agree with the scriptures that say it was built on the apostles and prophets: all of them not just Peter?

Do you think that Peter went to Rome? Do you think he testified there? Well he told Paul and Paul alone the was sent to Rome to bear witness. So by your your reasoning... I guess Peter was never in Rome to bear witness.

Let me ask you... Where would the church be if it was built on Peter alone? What if we only had 15 chapters in acts? What if Paul was never called? What if there was no book of Hebrews, James, 1, 2 and 3 John or revelations? What if there were no gospels? Perhaps... There would be no gentile church and if there was... We couldn't eat at the same table as Jewish Christians? I am illustrating absurdity here to make the point that it wasn't built on Peter alone.

Dear friend in Christ,

I never said The Church was built on Peter alone. It is hard to have a serious conversation when you put words in my mouth or suggest that "by my reasoning" when I haven't even 'reasoned' what you allege.

With that said I wish you well on your journey to find The Truth.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Follow one who is not blind:

"And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?" Luke 6:39

Who is not blind among them? Any one of them whose eyes have been anointed with eyesalve:

"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see." Rev 6:18

Ok....Thank you?

Would you care to answer the question or continue to quote scripture out of context?

Curious Mary

 

[verzanumi24]

***

So you are saying that the Jews never had to keep the law of Moses, right??????

The law of Moses was only required up to the time of John the baptist. But after Jesus was crusified and rose from the dead, it was no longer needed. The law of Moses was obsolete before it was even intruduced. Many of the laws and rituals that were required under the Old Covenant actually pointed to Jesus, who would put an end to those rituals.

 

[verzanumi24]

If you are going to try to put it in context then quote the whole verse and the verses around it.

Luke 22:25-28 KJV
And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. [26] But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. [27] For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth. [28] Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.

Jesus wasn't saying one would be greatest or a leader at all. He said they weren't to be that way. They were all servants and he included himself in that. But you got it right.. He was telling THEM (not just one of them) how to act when THEY are leading. Jesus was putting them on the same level.



Then...

Seems like you can answer your own question! I said he was temporarily the weakest and explained why. Do you disagree with that reason?

You can look at it as something encouraging for Peter and in one way it was, but it was more of a stern and dire warning. Yes, Peter did strengthen his brethren after he was converted (though... Funny thing: Jesus didn't say he would specifically strengthen the other apostles, though at times he did, and they strengthen him as well) but to focus on that is missing the point. The point is that Peter had no business strenthening anyone until he got himself in order first, because he was about to make the biggest mistake of his life.

All human beings by virtue of the fact that we are human automatically makes us leaders. But what Jesus said and did shows and tells us what a true leader should be.....one who serves.


So since all are leaders, all can and should serve and serve each other. It's deeper than what it might seem to mean. Here's why. God serves His creation by sustaining it and provides what His creation needs to exist. Human beings were made in God's image, and the scripture said that the saints will be like Jesus, because they will see Him as He is. So it's like saying we need to learn how to serve the way God does, because human beings are the only ones that will be doing what Jesus/God is doing. Human beings were made to rule and are not servants like the angels that are limited in power and were created to perform a specific task. Jesus will reward His people with rulership, which will be based on how well each person used the gifts that Jesus gave them.

 

[amadeus]

Ok....Thank you?

Would you care to answer the question or continue to quote scripture out of context?

Curious Mary

Is not the context of that a real situation versus a hypothetical one?

How would I know which of the three was the most authoritative unless God told me? Even if you had named men who had lived and I had read all of their reasons for their ways of believing, how could anyone but God know for certain unless God told them?

Should we even be making such decisions with regard to men rather than simply following God?

"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." II Cor 10:12

 

[Marymog]

Is not the context of that a real situation versus a hypothetical one?
How would I know which of the three was the most authoritative unless God told me? Even if you had named men who had lived and I had read all of their reasons for their ways of believing, how could anyone but God know for certain unless God told them?
Should we even be making such decisions with regard to men rather than simply following God?
"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." II Cor 10:12

Hi Amadeus,

Since, according to your theory, no man has authority to properly translate scripture then everything you say on hear means nothing. Every translation of scripture ever written means nothing and we know not the truth. How sad. Everyone is right and everyone is wrong. Weird.

BTW....I am following God. He says you are wrong in most of your translations and post that you make on this forum. And obviously you are following God also because He is telling you that I am wrong.

I wonder. Who’s ears are itching? Yours or mine? Since no one knows The Truth we will never know.

Mary

PS...Your 2 Corinthians qoute is out of context to this entire conversation.

 

[FHII]

I believe what Jesus said when he said to Peter "you are rock and upon this rock I will build my Church". Jesus did not say this to any other Apostle. Do you believe what Jesus said?

When Jesus is speaking to Peter he is talking about THE CHURCH.

I agree with ALL of scripture which says that Jesus was the chief cornerstone AND Jesus built his Church on Peter AND Jesus gave Peter and Peter alone the keys to the kingdom of heaven.

Combine Peter being the rock that Jesus built his Church on and Peter being given the keys to the kingdom of heaven it is clear to see that Peter is set apart from the other Apostles

So if you agree with me that the Church wasn't built on Peter alone, why didn't you say so in post #78? It would've saved a lot of time just to simply agree with me on that point. Yet, I see all these quotes from you talking about how the Church was built on Peter but never a mention of the other apostles!

Yes, you are right. You never said it was built on Peter alone. But reading these quotes is it unreasonable to believe that's what you were implying? Especially since it was your reply to me saying it wasn't built on Peter alone?

I mean... Is there anything else you secretly agree with me about but are arguing against me on?

 

[FHII]

Twist scripture all you want. Jesus said...he that is THE GREATEST AMONG YOU.... and HE THAT IS CHIEF.....which means exactly what Jesus said.

Still ignoring the part of the verse where Jesus said, "but ye shall not be so..."?

Just because scripture talks about Peters "temporary" weakness does not mean the other Apostles didn't have it also.

I never said they didn't and in fact have stated the did.

You failed to show me where scripture says what you think it says which is that Peter was (temporarily) the weakest amongst the Apostles. Would you care to try again?

Its right there next to the verse which says Peter was the greatest apostle.

Tell me where you think I am wrong: Jesus called out Peter and Peter alone as one who was who Satan was desiring to sift, who needed prayer and who needed to be converted. He at the time was in the most danger. Peter alone denied Jesus 3 times. Of all the mistakes Peter made this was about to be the biggest.

If there was one there who was in a weaker state, why didn't Jesus pray for them? Why didn't Jesus warn them? So if you know of another disciple who was weaker at the moment (excluding Judas) please let me know.

They also ran away...and they all came back.

Really? When? Where did they run to? I suppose in a sense they did... This wasn't about running away. This was about denying Jesus. Peter alone denied Jesus.

Since I have your attention (if I do) I would like to ask you about these keys that only Peter had... Tell me, what could these keys do? With Peter having sole possession of them, what could he bind or loose with them? (I didn't make that sound like a loaded question too much, did I?)

 

[FHII]

All human beings by virtue of the fact that we are human automatically makes us leaders. But what Jesus said and did shows and tells us what a true leader should be.....one who serves.


So since all are leaders, all can and should serve and serve each other. It's deeper than what it might seem to mean. Here's why. God serves His creation by sustaining it and provides what His creation needs to exist. Human beings were made in God's image, and the scripture said that the saints will be like Jesus, because they will see Him as He is. So it's like saying we need to learn how to serve the way God does, because human beings are the only ones that will be doing what Jesus/God is doing. Human beings were made to rule and are not servants like the angels that are limited in power and were created to perform a specific task. Jesus will reward His people with rulership, which will be based on how well each person used the gifts that Jesus gave them.

Without agreeing with everything you said, I do appreciate your post and agree with the overall point.

 

[amadeus]

Hi Amadeus,

Since, according to your theory, no man has authority to properly translate scripture then everything you say on hear means nothing. Every translation of scripture ever written means nothing and we know not the truth. How sad. Everyone is right and everyone is wrong. Weird.

You like to put words in people's mouths and then run them down without having a clue what they know or believe. God knows and what or who else matter if I am on His side.

BTW....I am following God. He says you are wrong in most of your translations and post that you make on this forum. And obviously you are following God also because He is telling you that I am wrong.

Again you're putting words into my mouth and drawing your conclusions without knowledge.

I wonder. Who’s ears are itching? Yours or mine? Since no one knows The Truth we will never know.

God knows the Truth and those with whom He has shared it.

PS...Your 2 Corinthians qoute is out of context to this entire conversation.

Is it? I disagree!

Since you already have made up your mind on all of these things there is no point in continuing the conversation.

 

[FHII]

You like to put words in people's mouths and then run them down without having a clue what they know or believe. God knows and what or who else matter if I am on His side.


Again you're putting words into my mouth and drawing your conclusions without knowledge.


God knows the Truth and those with whom He has shared it.


Is it? I disagree!

Since you already have made up your mind on all of these things there is no point in continuing the conversation.

Chuckle... Marymog has accused me of putting words in her mouth and having my mind already made up!

I have no problem with you Amadeus. I just am looking forward to hearing her answer to the same charges she laid on me....

Just a funny observation.