Built On The Wrong Apostle

[aspen]

Until I actually saw and spoke to Jesus myself, MY opinion was that God most likely did not exist, so because He showed me I had been 100% wrong on that, I take His word for things...why do you have a problem with that ? I am not opposed to what they have written, but that was their lives with Him, I am seeking to have my own relationship with Him, since He offered....

1. I simply asked a question
2. My relationship with God is shared because I am apart of His Body. I figured you were too, so I was suprised to hear that you disagree with other members of the body.

 

[pia]

This is a myth that never seems to die. The ecumenical council of Nicea (325 AD) didn't address the canon of Scripture

I apologise if I got the year and the council wrong, but it's all the same to me...I saw yesterday where people had found a massive clay jar in the sands of Egypt, which was filled with 'scrolls' with a whole lot of the missing gospels and letters left out of the catholic inspired Bible, and no I don't mean the dead sea scrolls...They said in fact there could have been as many as 50 gospels, although some time ago I heard that they had confirmed 22 or 24 ( sorry can't recall which)..My point is, that the emperor who decided to make this newly concocted religion a mix of The Way and other types of religions, in order to have it as cohesive as possible and without upsetting too many of other beliefs, they altered things...Surely you cannot deny this ? Even the idea that Jesus was born in late December..You know how they mention the shepherds in the fields who see the angels the night He was born ? If that had been at the end of December it would have been totally freezing, and I doubt they would have been in any fields in the middle of the night...I also doubt that they would have held a census at that time of year, since it wasn't voluntary....anyway, none of this actually matters, what matters is our faith in Him and holding on to Him and allowing ourselves to be sealed with His Holy Spirit, so that we may go on to become like Him and live in Love toward God and others...everything else He has taken care of on our behalf

 

[pia]

My relationship with God is shared because I am apart of His Body. I figured you were too

Every believer shares in His work and becomes a part of HIS church....That is what He answered me about church...Later I found out it was also described as His body and His Bride......I cannot agree with anyone who tells me anything which does not agree with what He has shown me or told me..That's all..

 

[pia]

so I was suprised to hear that you disagree with other members of the body.

So let me get this straight....You agree with everyone on this forum who say they are a christian ? That would be quite a feat, since there is so much dissension here..A little Wisdom goes a long way, Sir...

 

[aspen]

So let me get this straight....You agree with everyone on this forum who say they are a christian ? That would be quite a feat, since there is so much dissension here..A little Wisdom goes a long way, Sir...

No one here is an authority on doctrine. The early church fathers are authorities

 

[mjrhealth]

No one here is an authority on doctrine. The early church fathers are authorities

No they are not just men like the rest of us.

 

[aspen]

No they are not just men like the rest of us.

I didn’t say they were divine....i said they were authorities

 

[mjrhealth]

I didn’t say they were divine....i said they were authorities

Only in your eyes. all men are liars ,even me, yet you place more faith in men than God. God Jesus and the HS cannot lie, but men do so when they deem it necessary, even to making slaves of men, but men dont seem to care. All mens religions are built on lies and men who are willing to believe them. We have an Authority His name is Jesus. would rather believe Him than all the so called smart men, what do you think Jesus was on about, smart men don t need Jesus, they are to smart for God, to reliant on there one wisdom ,learning, understanding and knowledge. Pride is a terrible thing in men like knowledge it puffeth up.

Luk_11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

That bit helps to.

Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
Col 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

 

[pia]

The early church fathers are authorities

The Father, Jesus and The Holy Spirit....They are the authority, and they are the same now as they have been before....so why do you not believe Him able to teach anyone, just as Jesus foresaid ?

 

[aspen]

The Father, Jesus and The Holy Spirit....They are the authority, and they are the same now as they have been before....so why do you not believe Him able to teach anyone, just as Jesus foresaid ?

You are suggesting a false dichotomy, human being selcted by God or private interpretation of God. The reality is, God has choosen to use people to carry out His plan.

 

[pia]

r private interpretation of God.

No, His interpretation of God, or rather His knowing of God........Private ones are not necessarily of Him.....Truth is always truth and shall be revealed to all at some point, and even if we have been allowed a little peep, that is nothing in the scheme of things....

 

[aspen]

No, His interpretation of God, or rather His knowing of God........Private ones are not necessarily of Him.....Truth is always truth and shall be revealed to all at some point, and even if we have been allowed a little peep, that is nothing in the scheme of things....

Shouldn’t truth agree? The authorities are in agreement with the people around them - they disagree with you. All knowledge in academic, medical, science circles is in agreement or the information is rejected - private knowledge is rejected. The same is true in religion.

 

[Marymog]

Marymog
I have read that verse and many of the professional and forum commentaries. I am not convinced Jesus was saying he would build his Church on Peter. He was speaking of the revelation Peter gave.

Have you considered 1 Cor 3:10-11 where Paul speaks of himself building the foundation and the Church? Or that in Eph 2:20 where Paul says we are built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets [not Peter alone]?

Thank you.

Peter’s name occurs first in all lists of apostles (except Galatians 2) Matthew even calls him the “first”, Peter alone receives a new name (Rock). Peter is regarded by Jesus as the Chief Shepherd after himself (Jn 21:15-17), Peter alone among the apostles is mentioned by name as having been prayed for by Jesus Christ in order that his “faith may not fail” and to “strengthen your brethren (Lk 22:32). Peter is the leader at Pentacost and Council of Jerusleum Jesus gave Peter the keys of the kingdom. He didn't give them to ANYONE else. etc etc. I could go on and on but none of it matters to you. You have made your mind up.

The Apostles were convinced. The writings of the Church and Apostolic fathers show that they were convinced. Wonder why you aren't??? Is it because you put more merit in the writings of the men of the Reformation and not the men who lived closest to the time of the Apostles???

I have not considered those passages because when you put your 1 Corinthians and Ephesians 2 verses in CONTEXT and look at the entire scripture in regards to this matter one can easily see your argument is lacking merit.

I appreciate your time though....Mary

 

[FHII]

I have not considered those passages because when you put your 1 Corinthians and Ephesians 2 verses in CONTEXT and look at the entire scripture in regards to this matter one can easily see your argument is lacking merit.

Claiming they lack merit and suggesting they are not in proper context without proving it is not going to convince me that you are right.

I have read the list of Petrr's accolades, not that I needed such... I was already aware of them and am a fan of Peter. But these verses clearly say the church was built on all the apostles and prophets foundation... Not Peter alone. 1 Cor says Paul built that church, not Peter.

So what are you saying? Whe eph 2 says "we are built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Jesus being the chief cornerstone" it really means we are built on Peter's foundation with Simon bar Jonah being the chief cornerstone?

Pretty strange you said you didn't [won't???] consider those verses but you seem to hint I don't put those verses into context with the rest of scripture.

 

[FHII]

Peter alone among the apostles is mentioned by name as having been prayed for by Jesus Christ in order that his “faith may not fail” and to “strengthen your brethren (Lk 22:32

I've seen this one come up a few times by people insist Peter was the leader and I find it incredibly ironic. Because it came after the disciples were arguing who was the greatest and Jesus shut down that whole idea right away!

Its also ironic because none of those who are trying to make Peter their leader mention why Jesus was praying for him in the first place: because temporarily he was the weakest among them! He needed it the most! This was right before Jesus informed him that he (peter) was about to betray him.

Jesus even said he hadn't been converted yet. That's why Jesus was praying for Peter.

 

[pia]

Shouldn’t truth agree? The authorities are in agreement with the people around them

Truth will be revealed one day, until then we do the best we can with whatever truth HAS been revealed to us so far,and push into Him for more, or at least that is what I find in people who are wanting to truly know Him in the power of His resurrection....But I perceive quite another way in other people......As far as I am concerned, that is their right, and even if you disagree with that, how are you going to MAKE everyone to see this the way you do ?.....I can't and won't try to make anyone do anything they don't think is right, that is not my call what so ever ! Had to laugh out loud at your 2nd. sentence......You must live in a magical land somewhere...:)

 

[mjrhealth]

The authorities are in agreement with the people around them - they disagree with you

A lot of people agree with each other. doesnt me they agree with God, that assumption is what started all this mess. The KJ vers was certainly not HS led, just go and read how KJ set up the interpretation. A lot of really smart religious people in this world that dont know God.

 

[Marymog]

Claiming they lack merit and suggesting they are not in proper context without proving it is not going to convince me that you are right.

I have read the list of Petrr's accolades, not that I needed such... I was already aware of them and am a fan of Peter. But these verses clearly say the church was built on all the apostles and prophets foundation... Not Peter alone. 1 Cor says Paul built that church, not Peter.

So what are you saying? Whe eph 2 says "we are built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Jesus being the chief cornerstone" it really means we are built on Peter's foundation with Simon bar Jonah being the chief cornerstone?

Pretty strange you said you didn't [won't???] consider those verses but you seem to hint I don't put those verses into context with the rest of scripture.

Hi,

I love bible study.;)

I believe what Jesus said when he said to Peter "you are rock and upon this rock I will build my Church". Jesus did not say this to any other Apostle. Do you believe what Jesus said?

Paul didn't claim that he was the rock that the church was built on. Paul said that he "laid the foundation, and another builds on it". This is a true statement by Paul just as much as the statement that Jesus made about Peter is true. Paul, and the other Apostles, laid the foundation and others that they appointed (Apostolic Succession) built on that foundation. Paul is not claiming to have laid the foundation of THE CHURCH. His claim is about the foundation of the local Church at Corinth. When Paul is writing his letter to the Corinthians he is talking about and writing to the church in Corinth. When Jesus is speaking to Peter he is talking about THE CHURCH. It is very clear to see that what Jesus said about Peter is NOT IN CONTEXT to what Paul said about himself and the other Apostles.

No, I am not really saying that. I am saying that I agree with Jesus: "you are Peter and on this rock I will build my church." I agree with ALL of scripture which says that Jesus was the chief cornerstone AND Jesus built his Church on Peter AND Jesus gave Peter and Peter alone the keys to the kingdom of heaven. I suspect you already know the significance of the "keys to the kingdom" in the Jewish religion so I won't bore you with that. Combine Peter being the rock that Jesus built his Church on and Peter being given the keys to the kingdom of heaven it is clear to see that Peter is set apart from the other Apostles.

Nothing strange about not conflating two scripture passages that have nothing to do with each other and trying to make them equal. Jesus was talking about THE CHURCH when he was talking to Peter and Paul was talking too and about the church at Corinth. I find it strange they would be conflated. ;)

If you want to go beyond scripture and read some of the historical Christian writings from the 1st and 2nd century and the men who lived closest to the time of the Apostles (instead of the writings of the men of the Reformation 1,500 years later) you will see that they held Peter in primacy just like Jesus and the Apostles did.

Respectfully, Mary

 

[Marymog]

I've seen this one come up a few times by people insist Peter was the leader and I find it incredibly ironic. Because it came after the disciples were arguing who was the greatest and Jesus shut down that whole idea right away!

Its also ironic because none of those who are trying to make Peter their leader mention why Jesus was praying for him in the first place: because temporarily he was the weakest among them! He needed it the most! This was right before Jesus informed him that he (peter) was about to betray him.

Jesus even said he hadn't been converted yet. That's why Jesus was praying for Peter.

Thank you.

Yes, He did 'shut it down' right away. But let's put all of that passage IN CONTEXT. Jesus said, "rather the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like one who serves." Jesus is literally saying there will be a leader and a greatest amongst them. He is just telling them how to act WHEN they are leading.

Where does scripture say that Peter was the weakest amongst the Apostles? I can't find it.

Here is what scripture does say about Peter being weak: Jesus said to Peter, "and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.” This means that Peter will have a weak moment AND obviously the other Apostles will have their weak moment since Peter is supposed to strengthen them. Jesus makes it clear that Peter (singular) will return to Jesus and once he has he is to strengthen the other Apostles who are STILL weak. Notice Jesus doesn't say HE will strengthen the other Apostles. He assigns Peter, the leader of the Apostles, to strengthen them. Jesus tells Peter that satan has asked for him (singular) and that Jesus has prayed for him (singular).

Bible study Mary

 

[Marymog]

The Father, Jesus and The Holy Spirit....They are the authority, and they are the same now as they have been before....so why do you not believe Him able to teach anyone, just as Jesus foresaid ?

Hi Pia,

If He is able to teach anyone and everyone that opens their heart, soul and mind to Him what do we do when we have three different interpretations from three different people (or churches) of the same scripture passage? Which interpretation is the most authoritative?

Mary