By Love Serve One Another

[APAK]

You are free to walk in whatever way you see fit.


Not found in scripture you say?.... Unless you read the bible, that is....

"For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it." Heb. 4:2

Again, your ideas are not the same as what we read in the bible. It's so funny that people conjure up ideas...and when they prove to be false, the accusation is that I'm the one making things up.

The bible is written for our instruction. And that includes the book of Exodus. Have you seen the movie "The 10 Commandments"?



You have divorced salvation away from the scriptures. There is a perfect parallel between the OT scriptures and the NT gospel. See how many times the NT quotes the OT as a fulfillment.

You need a better grounding in the scriptures before you criticize what I'm posting. Unless you just want to opinionate that is...


I made it up by reading the bible and quoting it...and experiencing that very training. So I have multiple angles to see things from. If you eliminate the scriptural lessons and warnings...then you are on your own.


I say that being born again is a SAMPLE of grace, because no one is so mature and selfless whereby they can remain there. Faith is lacking. So we enter into the training ground until we have the faith to fully surrender into the higher walk...being translated into the kingdom walk. (you do realize that this is in the bible...I don't always post every verse as it would become tedious...so you have to do the search...that is, if you want to progress in understanding)


God decides when and if we are ready to take on the responsibility of the higher walk in holiness. There is a great penalty for misusing grace...and not everyone is ready for that. God chooses...that's why these are called the chosen.

God's ways are deep and penetrating...defying any kind of harmony with the carnal mind. One must adapt oneself to God and His ways to have any chance of being selected by God for the upward training of the saint.

So you continue to deny that we receive the gift of saving faith of the full grace of God, and with his Spirit within us via his Son for salvation. And upon God's acceptance criteria, that vitally includes one's true repentance? You continue to deny it for your conceited version of what you call the gospel based upon a purely carnal view, drawn from a personal experience that I believe has made you this way. I've read many of your posts to have come to this conclusion over time.

A sample of grace. indeed. How can God give one only bit of his unmerited love and generosity for especially salvation? Do you know what bit he gave us and the major part he held back? Of course you do not know because it is a bold-faced lie.

Here's a source that also says you are a liar if you do not give me any relevance.

"Based on the provided information, when we become saved, we do not get only a sample of grace. We are saved by grace from beginning to end. The desire to come to God and have faith is also attributed to God’s grace at work, even before we believe. As we continue to trust in Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit works in our lives to make us more like Him, which strengthens our assurance of being one of God’s children."

Did His word as in Paul and Jesus and others only mean a trial run or an OT training type of salvation is given to us, that can eventually falter as the Israelite faulted without finding salvation? As only a joke or at best for a teaser until another newer future covenant is made? How cruel that would be. My God is of love and mercy when he gave his Son to die on the Cross for us. It was not a joke to him, and yet you mock His action and his full grace given to us for our salvation, with your deceitful works you have attached to His.......

And what does this sample of grace of yours really mean anyway? You really cannot explain it can you? It is not in scripture at all. It is a foreign concept.

So for you, and others like you, God only gave you a part, a small piece of his holiness and unmerited generosity for our salvation. The rest of it we need to get for ourselves, and in the hope it may please God. Do you know how this sounds Epi? It sounded like you have overruled God's word, and in its place invented your own rules for salvation. And then one can conclude as I do, at least biblically, your conversion in/into Christ is false, as you also lack the Spirit of God within you. It also reminds me of the self-righteous Israelites wandering around in the desert because they did not obey His word and created their own righteousness of works, as you are doing here. You may still be a seeker and wanting to please God in your own way?

And to say there is a perfect parallel of the OT scriptures with the NT gospel. Hogwash! You have forced a false parallel to fit your bogus gospel of the Kingdom and your so-called 2-step salvation idea. How dare you impose the plan of God found in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Joshua, then, with his perfect grace for salvation of the new Covenant established by the shed blood of his Son, on the Cross and beyond.

Do you know what you have done?

Reread these OT Books in view of God's overall purpose and plan, and you must see the gross glaring error you have made here by fusing this Old agreement with the New and revised agreement, under a more perfect full act of grace for our salvation. The former, in brief, was for revelation, that the human heart cannot be trusted to serve in holiness and God, ever, if left alone to its own will and devises without the the heart being transformed and renewed with God's constant presence. Thus, the reason for the latter revised agreement by God, ensuring we can now have his own Spirit within us to serve him more perfectly and in true worship, if we open our hearts to him. Scripture speak to all this...and yet it is not beneficial to you and your cause so you must deny it.

This erroneous and deceitful doctrine of yours, you purposely keep in the wings of your threads/topics until the right opportunistic moment to unveil, disguised by open pleasing titles that entice the unsuspected, will lead many people astray. And that is your goal. To lead as many people as possible away from the true gospel of scripture.

If you have the truth and knowledge of God for salvation as you strongly imply, you would be eager to be transparent and open about it and be able to clearly articulate it. Since all you have done is falsify scripture for your cause and with unexplained scripture-like expressions of levels, and with new meanings for righteous and holiness, as a drastically revise view of Paul's race, you message is meaningless and false.

I hope some day when God calls you, you will heed it and open your heart to him and with true repentance, as all of us must do or have in the past..it is a command to everyone...

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes, to know what is in their corrupted hearts, by eventually being humbled by God and his words, and what their own faith and will can muster to please God. What can they really bring to the holy table, without the Spirit of God within their hearts, only disobedience, the wrath of God, hardened hearts, death and destruction.

Brother I'm still trying to understand the wilderness trek of the Israelites....how these things happened to them and were written for our admonition. I believe it is all a living "parable" or picture of the believer's journey.

I just don't see the "one and done" the way that Episkopos seems to tell it.......because God said He would drive out the enemies of the Israelites from the Land little by little.....and how entering and conquering the promised land (kingdom of heaven) isn't done in a day. Just seems to me that the story all needs to be understood in spirit and not necessarily in a literal, compartmentalized, linear, chronological way.

Anyway, still chewing on these things.

 

[Lizbeth]

I don't always post every verse as it would become tedious...so you have to do the search.

You can't be bothered in other words. Well, thanks. I can think of things that have been a lot more tedious to put up with around here.

 

[APAK]

Brother I'm still trying to understand the wilderness trek of the Israelites....how these things happened to them and were written for our admonition. I believe it is all a living "parable" or picture of the believer's journey.

I just don't see the "one and done" the way that Episkopos seems to tell it.......because God said He would drive out the enemies of the Israelites from the Land little by little.....and how entering and conquering the promised land (kingdom of heaven) isn't done in a day. Just seems to me that the story all needs to be understood in spirit and not necessarily in a literal, compartmentalized, linear, chronological way.

Anyway, still chewing on these things.

You are on to something bigger than you think here Liz. Their Promised land was just that, a promise made by God for a specific areas of land, and then only for that time under his conditions. It was never meant to be a place or state of foreshadowing a future salvation by the fullness of God's generosity for us today.

It has zip to do with how we are converted to salvation today. Apples and Oranges. And Epi has clumsily confused the two goals of God fused into his false doctrine, as some type of support.

If here continues with this ridiculous charade and with his false parallelisms and what he thinks is grace etc. And especially if he continued to falsify and degrade my posts. I will have no choice, to most certainly challenge him to show the biblical scriptural view of these things. I will not stop until he gets sick of it. I've only been at it now for over 40 years...with God's help I will continue for at least another decade.

 

[Episkopos]

You can't be bothered in other words. Well, thanks. I can think of things that have been a lot more tedious to put up with around here.

I find it pointless to post chapter and verse because it doesn't seem to carry any weight among the indoctrinated ones.

Case in point...I responded to Apak's suggestion that there is no parallel to the Israelites in the wilderness with the gospel. I posted the verse that says that very thing (Heb. 4:2) ...and poof...no reading skill. Just more obfuscation.

And I didn't mention that we both drink (drank) from the same spiritual rock which is Christ. I guess I figure that people have already read their bibles.

"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." 1 Cor. 10:4

Am I making this up? No, one has to learn to read the bible without prejudice or a religious bent. Does this inform people...to post verses? Nope.

 

[APAK]

@Lizbeth One more comment on the 'Promised Land'
The 'Promised Land' can be seen as a foreshadowing of the future Kingdom of God only in this light, and not as a part of a foreshadowing of the future believer's walk since Christ and the NT, as I recently commented.

Yes, in the Old Testament, God promised a specific territory to the Israelites as a sign of His covenant with them. However, the concept of the Promised Land also serves as a metaphor pointing to salvation in Jesus Christ and the promise of the Kingdom of God. The first was a lesson of a Promised land or Kingdom bound for certain failure. The last, since Christ, is not a failed experiment of fallen carnal man, as baptism in the Spirit ensured its success as the Kingdom truly of God and not man!

In the New Testament, Jesus is portrayed as the fulfillment of all God’s promises, including the promised land. When someone believes in Christ as their Savior, they immediately become a citizen of the Kingdom of God. Now how can we as believers learn as some type of training, and trek as the Israelites did, as part of our current state of spiritual heart- filled salvation? We are not these people at all.

 

[Lizbeth]

Eph 1:13-14

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.



2Co 1:21-22

Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.




2Co 5:1-5

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.



Rom 8:23

Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.



These scriptures are showing that the earnest of the Spirit (down payment) is given as a guarantee of our inheritance to come….which is the redemption of our bodies after we leave this life....ie, eternal life. Everyone is given a measure of the Spirit (faith and grace) as God wills in the beginning of our faith....which we are supposed to grow in, as scripture also says. But there isn't anything in these particular scrips that talks about the earnest (what Epi calls a sample) guaranteeing or being security against more of the Spirit in this life.

But if there are scriptures that do say or at least, depict this, then please let someone bring them. If Epi doesn't want to, then how about someone from among those who agree with his teachings on this? I mean surely those who agree with him arent' just taking his word for it but are seeing it in the word of God, so it shouldn't be too hard to just paste the scrips that taught you this, and let's look at them.

 

[APAK]

I find it pointless to post chapter and verse because it doesn't seem to carry any weight among the indoctrinated ones.

Case in point...I responded to Apak's suggestion that there is no parallel to the Israelites in the wilderness with the gospel. I posted the verse that says that very thing (Heb. 4:2) ...and poof...no reading skill. Just more obfuscation.

And I didn't mention that we both drink (drank) from the same spiritual rock which is Christ. I guess I figure that people have already read their bibles.

"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." 1 Cor. 10:4

Am I making this up? No, one has to learn to read the bible without prejudice or a religious bent. Does this inform people...to post verses? Nope.

Ok Epi let's see how your verse Heb 4:2 has any resemblance to the Israelite trek and the Promised land and in even in a new believers life of the Spirit, who is in the Kingdom of God today.

(Heb 4:2) For indeed we have had good tidings preached to us, even as also they did; but the word they heard did not benefit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard it.


It speaks to the glad tidings of their future, the gospel that John the Baptist and Jesus announced. That 'some' of them heard of this news, the truth of salvation, I believe in a totally different format.

It says this message was useless to them, of no value. It was useless because they possessed the wrong type of faith. It was of self and not given by God to true belief, in true faith, patience and love.

So is this view a 'perfect parallel' view as you termed it, of even a new convert in Christ? I think not. There is no connection at all. The key and reason is simple, the faith of one was natural, carnal, and unpredictable, and the other, righteous and holy and very predictable and assured. This Israelite view of salvation after listening to the good message, for and in their future, is not remotely the same view as a believer, who already possesses salvation today, by a saving faith given by God, as a gift. It is definitely beneficial to this person today. They depend on this faith in Christ, as the Israelite depended mostly on themselves and their own wits.

What you should have said Epi is there is a commonality or parallelism via Hebrews 4:2 of preaching the same gospel, ONLY. You left it vague, I believe on purpose.

What about the commonality/parallelism of the gospel in both historical time periods Epi?

Then to be brutally honest you should have also followed up with the fact that they believed with a DIFFERENT type of faith on this message as compared with a believer of today. And that a believer does not do any type of wilderness trek TO salvation as they had to, and certainly not for spiritual salvation from the heart.

As another note: Heb 4:2 also indicates with more realism, that the good news of 'rest' was not beneficial to these rebellious Israelites, because they were not united as one with Caleb and Joshua in their faith; these were the exceptions according to scripture. at that time.

next one....
1 Cor 10:4b..
(1Co 10:4) and did all drink the same spiritual drink. For they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them; and the rock represented Christ.

This scripture says that 'some' of the trekking Israelites gained spiritual nourishment of the future King beyond their future King David of the Kingdom of Israel in Canaan. It gave 'some' of them hope for themselves and their people in the future.

The word “follow” means “to go after,” and that can mean either in time or space. The Israelites did “drink,” i.e get nourishment, from knowing about the Christ who was to come after them. Some heard the message of rest as they would have understood it and placed their unpredictable and fleeting faith in it from time to time, especially when things got really tough for them.

So how is this scripture supporting your so-called 1st step and/or low(er) level walk of a saved person who you say by reference, has the same type of faith as one of these rebellious Israelites who had only faith in themselves? There is no connection at all.

Yes, you might need to read and display the verses you speak of with meaning and explanation..

Any more verses I missed then, of yours Epi? Fire away....I will be happy to explain them all, especially in light of your false gospel.

 

[Episkopos]

Ok Epi let's see how your verse Heb 4:2 has any resemblance to the Israelite trek and the Promised land and in even in a new believers life of the Spirit, who is in the Kingdom of God today.

(Heb 4:2) For indeed we have had good tidings preached to us, even as also they did; but the word they heard did not benefit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard it.


It speaks to the glad tidings of their future, the gospel that John the Baptist and Jesus announced. That 'some' of them heard of this news, the truth of salvation, I believe in a totally different format.

It says this message was useless to them, of no value. It was useless because they possessed the wrong type of faith. It was of self and not given by God to true belief, in true faith, patience and love.

So is this view a 'perfect parallel' view as you termed it, of even a new convert in Christ? I think not. There is no connection at all. The key and reason is simple, the faith of one was natural, carnal, and unpredictable, and the other, righteous and holy and very predictable and assured. This Israelite view of salvation after listening to the good message, for and in their future, is not remotely the same view as a believer, who already possesses salvation today, by a saving faith given by God, as a gift. It is definitely beneficial to this person today. They depend on this faith in Christ, as the Israelite depended mostly on themselves and their own wits.

What you should have said Epi is there is a commonality or parallelism via Hebrews 4:2 of preaching the same gospel, ONLY. You left it vague, I believe on purpose.

What about the commonality/parallelism of the gospel in both historical time periods Epi?

Then to be brutally honest you should have also followed up with the fact that they believed with a DIFFERENT type of faith on this message as compared with a believer of today. And that a believer does not do any type of wilderness trek TO salvation as they had to, and certainly not for spiritual salvation from the heart.

As another note: Heb 4:2 also indicates with more realism, that the good news of 'rest' was not beneficial to these rebellious Israelites, because they were not united as one with Caleb and Joshua in their faith; these were the exceptions according to scripture. at that time.

next one....
1 Cor 10:4b..
(1Co 10:4) and did all drink the same spiritual drink. For they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them; and the rock represented Christ.

This scripture says that 'some' of the trekking Israelites gained spiritual nourishment of the future King beyond their future King David of the Kingdom of Israel in Canaan. It gave 'some' of them hope for themselves and their people in the future.

The word “follow” means “to go after,” and that can mean either in time or space. The Israelites did “drink,” i.e get nourishment, from knowing about the Christ who was to come after them. Some heard the message of rest as they would have understood it and placed their unpredictable and fleeting faith in it from time to time, especially when things got really tough for them.

So how is this scripture supporting your so-called 1st step and/or low(er) level walk of a saved person who you say by reference, has the same type of faith as one of these rebellious Israelites who had only faith in themselves? There is no connection at all.

Yes, you might need to read and display the verses you speak of with meaning and explanation..

Any more verses I missed then, of yours Epi? Fire away....I will be happy to explain them all, especially in light of your false gospel.

Here is the full context that leaves no doubt about what this is talking about...

While it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Heb. 3:15-19 and Heb. 4:1-2

 

[Lizbeth]

You are on to something bigger than you think here Liz. Their Promised land was just that, a promise made by God for a specific areas of land, and then only for that time under his conditions. It was never meant to be a place or state of foreshadowing a future salvation by the fullness of God's generosity for us today.

It has zip to do with how we are converted to salvation today. Apples and Oranges. And Epi has clumsily confused the two goals of God fused into his false doctrine, as some type of support.

If here continues with this ridiculous charade and with his false parallelisms and what he thinks is grace etc. And especially if he continued to falsify and degrade my posts. I will have no choice, to most certainly challenge him to show the biblical scriptural view of these things. I will not stop until he gets sick of it. I've only been at it now for over 40 years...with God's help I will continue for at least another decade.

Yes, it was quite literal for the Israelites back then, but I believe it is all a figure (allegory/parable) of the gospel too..........Moses (the Law) couldn't lead them into the land of promise.....it was weak through the flesh and Moses was reacting in his flesh when he struck the Rock a second time.....when Moses died Joshua was chosen to lead them in (figure of Christ and gospel of new covenant).. Jesus is the Greek for Joshua. The bible in 1 Cor 10 says these things happened unto them for our ensamples and were written for our admonition. Those Israelites are called "the church in the wilderness" in Act 7:38. It is hard for me not to see their story as being a pattern for us.....The Word (Jesus) speaks to us in parables.

Everything in the OT has things to say to us, the church, who have been called out of Egypt in order to enter the Promised Land (kingdom of God.....Jesus said to His disciples, you know "the way" to where I am going). But of course it's a matter of needing to rightly divide it all as we grow in understanding.

 

[APAK]

Here is the full context that leaves no doubt about what this is talking about...

While it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Heb. 3:15-19 and Heb. 4:1-2

If that is what you consider a context of Heb 3:15-19 and Heb 4:1-2 then my name is most certainly Abe Lincoln. I'm serious here, you don't know the context of these verses, and I also know you do not realize these verses along with many others, disprove your theory of a 'wilderness' trek for a 'common' believer with your promotion of a contrived despicable and evil low(er) walk you accuse those in Christ of. The truth will continue to unveil itself as I break down and expose all your lies, your mockery of God's better and more perfect grace for our salvation today, as compared with the 'lesser' grace given to the Israelites of the OT.

And what is your point again for these verses? And more importantly, where is your explanation of why you think a believer is exactly like most of those Israelites who never made it to the Promised land, as your so-called perfect parallel of the OT and NT gospels, and they were given the message of truth in different ways. I hope you realize that as well. You cannot explain it for your audience now can you?! At least give it your best shot.

Where is your explanation or did you again have amnesia and have now attempted to go to another subject as the moving target you are, on the run again? And what does this parroting of some verses have to do with the what I wrote, with explanation, in my previous post, in addressing the subject you keep trying to defend, so miserably and ironically run away from?

Ok Ei, let me write up a context for you and explain it all again, that incorporated the subject at hand, that is meant to be so crucial to your false doctrine.

(Heb 3:15) It is said: Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.
(Heb 3:16) For who, having heard, still rebelled? Was it not all those who followed Moses out of Egypt?
(Heb 3:17) And with whom was He displeased for forty years? Was it not with those that sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
(Heb 3:18) And to whom swore He that they should not enter into His rest, but to those that were disobedient?
(Heb 3:19) So we see that they were not able to enter in because of their unbelief.
(Heb 4:1) Therefore, while the promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any one of you should seem to have failed to attain it.
(Heb 4:2) For indeed we have had good tidings preached to us, even as also they did; but the word they heard did not benefit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard it.
(Heb 4:3) For we who have believed do enter into that rest, even as He has said: As I swore in my anger: They shall not enter into My rest, although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
------------------------------------------------------------------
The wider context of Hebrews 3:15 through 4:3 focuses on the themes of faith, obedience, and entering God’s rest, period. And the audience are mostly seekers as I will explain further. There are some new believers, still in an immature state of spiritual growth. And there are even non-believers amongst them as the use of the term 'brother' was a conventional, meant to capture his main targeted audience; the seekers, not yet in Christ.

I believe there were not many mature believers at that time, since Pentecost was most probably less than 20 years ago.

In summary, the Author's context of Hebrews 3:15 through 4:3 emphasizes the need for faith, obedience, and perseverance in order to avoid the pitfalls of disbelief and disobedience, and to ultimately enter God’s rest. Remember these were seekers not yest believer's in Christ.

Hebrews 3:15-19 warns against hardening one’s heart and not listening to God’s voice, drawing a parallel to the Israelites who did not enter the Promised Land due to their disobedience and unbelief. The passage emphasizes the importance of remaining steadfast in faith and not falling into the same trap as the Israelites.

Hebrews 4:1-3 introduces the concept of entering God’s rest, which is not a physical location but a spiritual state of peace and fulfillment.

The very first thing of utmost significance is the calling of God upon ones heart, and not just inside the mind. This call is for the benefit of a person to reach the God-give state of salvation

Yes, it was quite literal for the Israelites back then, but I believe it is all a figure (allegory/parable) of the gospel too..........Moses (the Law) couldn't lead them into the land of promise.....it was weak through the flesh and Moses was reacting in his flesh when he struck the Rock a second time.....when Moses died Joshua was chosen to lead them in (figure of Christ and gospel of new covenant).. Jesus is the Greek for Joshua. The bible in 1 Cor 10 says these things happened unto them for our ensamples and were written for our admonition. Those Israelites are called "the church in the wilderness" in Act 7:38. It is hard for me not to see their story as being a pattern for us.....The Word (Jesus) speaks to us in parables.

Everything in the OT has things to say to us, the church, who have been called out of Egypt in order to enter the Promised Land (kingdom of God.....Jesus said to His disciples, you know "the way" to where I am going). But of course it's a matter of needing to rightly divide it all as we grow in understanding.

Yes Liz, you have found most certainly some gems. Although this is not the point of my contention with Epi. I'm focusing on his lack of scriptural support for his novel type of non-scriptural salvation for today, for us and not what God intended. And right now, his perfect parallel of the wandering unbelieving Israelites as akin to most believer in Christ today, is focus, and his comparison is dead wrong.

I need to stay focused and run it all down as I'm now in the process of pulling apart his latest post to me.

I would be careful though, not to get carried away with these and other OT and/ versus NT themes, whether they convey truth in comparison or not. As in formed analogies and metaphors without first knowing how this supports, agrees or disagrees with your walk in Christ today and not under the Law, and more importantly as the OT did not incorporate the reception of the Spirit in one's heart.

Some use these subjects to mislead and trap others into wrong thinking, by adding an ounce of poison to them, to spice them up a bit as Epi continues to do in his threads.

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes, to know what is in their corrupted hearts, by eventually being humbled by God and his words, and what their own faith and will can muster to please God. What can they really bring to the holy table, without the Spirit of God within their hearts, only disobedience, the wrath of God, hardened hearts, death and destruction.

Amen, true.........and it seems to be much the same for us, like those Israelites we are humbled most when we blow it and make mistakes after coming out of Egypt when we were slaves to the god of this world.....it teaches us how we in our flesh fall short and are insufficient in ourselves, when the Lord begins to shine His light into our hearts and chasten us. I think we are like children learning to walk...we stumble and bumble a lot like the Israelites did until/unless we learn to truly walk in the Spirit and overcome the flesh little by little. I never started to understand how sinful I really was until long after coming to faith, and the Lord is still showing me things. Hebrews 6 says we are to leave the elementary things and go on to "perfection"....grow and mature in Christ. Perfection to me, speaks to being "spiritual" no longer carnal. Like where it says, "you who are spiritual restore such a one"...that wasn't speaking to the entire church but only to those who had matured in the Lord to the point of no longer being carnal babes but had attained to their measure of the stature of Christ (Eph. 4:13).

 

[APAK]

Amen, true.........and it seems to be much the same for us, like those Israelites we are humbled most when we blow it and make mistakes after coming out of Egypt when we were slaves to the god of this world.....it teaches us how we in our flesh fall short and are insufficient in ourselves, when the Lord begins to shine His light into our hearts and chasten us. I think we are like children learning to walk...we stumble and bumble a lot like the Israelites did until/unless we learn to truly walk in the Spirit and overcome the flesh little by little. I never started to understand how sinful I really was until long after coming to faith, and the Lord is still showing me things. Hebrews 6 says we are to leave the elementary things and go on to "perfection"....grow and mature in Christ. Perfection to me, speaks to being "spiritual" no longer carnal. Like where it says, "you who are spiritual restore such a one"...that wasn't speaking to the entire church but only to those who had matured in the Lord to the point of no longer being carnal babes but had attained to their measure of the stature of Christ (Eph. 4:13).

Yes, bang on Liz...our one and only righteous and holy walk is one of growth and maturity leaving the carnal mind far behind as hung on the Cross of death. We move ever forward to perfection and never truly gain the Pauline prize that he himself knew he could not attain/obtain in his lifetime, in his mortal body.

When Epi speaks of a 'wilderness' walk he literally equates it to a believer, as one of the same still disbelieving Israelite, or those attempting to heed the call of God still with a hardened heart. He ridicules the concept and real salvation given to a believer by God. And this is the warning I'm giving you, not to take true analogies and metaphors as literal truth for today of the NT.

For example, you used the word 'church' in the wilderness of the Israelites- in you previous post to me. This congregation is used not to mean the Body of Christ today. They are NOT the same 'church' - really a congregation. That would be a huge mistake.

You see I believe Epi goes beyond meaning these types of things are say metaphors. He literally means they are literally the same thing, and in this subject at hand, with believers having the same self-righteousness and same self-faith to attain salvation, with the absent of the Spirit of God. That's why he must say we only get a sample of grace that mocks the full grace of God and gift of faith..

 

[Ritajanice]

grow and mature in Christ. Perfection to me, speaks to being "spiritual" no longer carnal. Like where it says, "you who are spiritual restore such a one

Do you think we are carnal at times, in the way we reply to others?

You who are spiritual restore such a one, what does that mean?

Do you believe that only the Spirit can bring us under control of His Spirit...in other words working in our hearts to:submit to God’s will?

Do you see yourself changing, becoming more like Jesus?xx

How about the renewing of your mind?

 

[Lizbeth]

I find it pointless to post chapter and verse because it doesn't seem to carry any weight among the indoctrinated ones.

Case in point...I responded to Apak's suggestion that there is no parallel to the Israelites in the wilderness with the gospel. I posted the verse that says that very thing (Heb. 4:2) ...and poof...no reading skill. Just more obfuscation.

And I didn't mention that we both drink (drank) from the same spiritual rock which is Christ. I guess I figure that people have already read their bibles.

"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." 1 Cor. 10:4

Am I making this up? No, one has to learn to read the bible without prejudice or a religious bent. Does this inform people...to post verses? Nope.

Well, I can't drink from THIS fountain. It's unfortunate that your attitude taints what you are saying. Just can't help yourself, can you? Still need the Potter to do some more work on your clay it seems. It's as though you think the scriptures have nothing more to teach you...is the written word beneath your notice now?.....and it's too far beneath you to bother bringing them to others who are beneath you. "oh puleeze, do I have to spell it out for you babies?....sigh." Last I heard, that isn't what qualifies someone to teach.

 

[Lizbeth]

When Epi speaks of a 'wilderness' walk he literally equates it to a believer, as one of the same still disbelieving Israelite, or those attempting to heed the call of God still with a hardened heart. He ridicules the concept and real salvation given to a believer by God

Amen!. That is well said and I agree. He seems too literal and compartmentalized in how he is seeing a lot of things...that is the carnal mind not the Spirit and mind of Christ.

And this is the warning I'm giving you, not to take true analogies and metaphors as literal truth for today of the NT.

Amen, yes I'm hearing you. Thank you brother. We have to be careful of taking the analogies of scripture too far or too literally, with our own mind and imagination. We need to seek for and wait on the Lord for illumination to rightly divide.

For example, you used the word 'church' in the wilderness of the Israelites- in you previous post to me. This congregation is used not to mean the Body of Christ today. They are NOT the same 'church' - really a congregation. That would be a huge mistake.

Amen, it is only to be taken as a figure. Our starting point as believers is not the same....what theirs was is only a picture of something spiritual, not literal. Our journey is on another level than that of the Israelites, could we say?

You see I believe Epi goes beyond meaning these types of things are say metaphors. He literally means they are literally the same thing, and in this subject at hand, with believers having the same self-righteousness and same self-faith to attain salvation, with the absent of the Spirit of God. That's why he must say we only get a sample of grace that mocks the full grace of God and gift of faith..

Amen.....thank you again for making this so clear. It's as though he doesn't understand he is talking to those who are already born again and have received grace....the grace of God that imputes His righteousness to us. Calling those things that be not as though they are. THAT is salvation, the very gospel that Epi denies and seems to even despise....we can't and don't merit salvation at all in our own selves. Someone who doesn't get this....well it makes me wonder whether they are born again.

 

[Lizbeth]

Do you think we are carnal at times, in the way we reply to others?

You who are spiritual restore such a one, what does that mean?

Do you believe that only the Spirit can bring us under control of His Spirit...in other words working in our hearts to:submit to God’s will?

Do you see yourself changing, becoming more like Jesus?xx

How about the renewing of your mind?

Amen sister. As for me, I don't see myself as being "spiritual" yet. In the meantime we are ironing sharpening iron and just speaking truth to our neighbour, reproving each other, in hopes we might see ourselves as we need to see, leading hopefully to our betterment. I think motive matters too....whether one is speaking for the good of another or not.

 

[Episkopos]

If that is what you consider a context of Heb 3:15-19 and Heb 4:1-2 then my name is most certainly Abe Lincoln. I'm serious here, you don't know the context of these verses, and I also know you do not realize these verses along with many others, disprove your theory of a 'wilderness' trek for a 'common' believer with your promotion of a contrived despicable and evil low(er) walk you accuse those in Christ of. The truth will continue to unveil itself as I break down and expose all your lies, your mockery of God's better and more perfect grace for our salvation today, as compared with the 'lesser' grace given to the Israelites of the OT.

Does this really need a response...your uncharitable ways are showing...the Dr. Jekyll / Mr. Hyde aspect of your persona at it again.

And what is your point again for these verses? And more importantly, where is your explanation of why you think a believer is exactly like most of those Israelites who never made it to the Promised land, as your so-called perfect parallel of the OT and NT gospels, and they were given the message of truth in different ways. I hope you realize that as well. You cannot explain it for your audience now can you?! At least give it your best shot.

Jesus said that very few would be able to enter into the kingdom of God through the narrow door...and that many will try and fail. To most modern believers that is intolerable...as people want to make up their own minds if they are saved or not. And most are unable to bear the truth about sanctification. Your very hostility to the truth of the higher walk shows this carnal apprehension in living colour...as do the responses of those who take shelter behind a religious certainty that makes God an easy touch.

The truth is that we ought to fear...as it says SO often in the NT. Those verses will ALWAYS be ignored ...to be disregarded by the dominating carnal outer religious man...now puffed up in thinking that salvation is "in the bag".

The irony is that the part of people that resists the truth because they think they have nothing to fear...needs to go to the cross in order to enter into the mystery of the faith...which is the higher walk in the Spirit.

Where is your explanation or did you again have amnesia and have now attempted to go to another subject as the moving target you are, on the run again? And what does this parroting of some verses have to do with the what I wrote, with explanation, in my previous post, in addressing the subject you keep trying to defend, so miserably and ironically run away from?

Ok Ei, let me write up a context for you and explain it all again, that incorporated the subject at hand, that is meant to be so crucial to your false doctrine.

(Heb 3:15) It is said: Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.
(Heb 3:16) For who, having heard, still rebelled? Was it not all those who followed Moses out of Egypt?
(Heb 3:17) And with whom was He displeased for forty years? Was it not with those that sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
(Heb 3:18) And to whom swore He that they should not enter into His rest, but to those that were disobedient?
(Heb 3:19) So we see that they were not able to enter in because of their unbelief.
(Heb 4:1) Therefore, while the promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any one of you should seem to have failed to attain it.
(Heb 4:2) For indeed we have had good tidings preached to us, even as also they did; but the word they heard did not benefit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard it.
(Heb 4:3) For we who have believed do enter into that rest, even as He has said: As I swore in my anger: They shall not enter into My rest, although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
------------------------------------------------------------------
The wider context of Hebrews 3:15 through 4:3 focuses on the themes of faith, obedience, and entering God’s rest, period.

That rest for the Israelites was the Promised Land...not some zen-like state. It was a PHYSICAL place...Canaan.

Our entering into God's rest is in a spiritual place...Zion in the heavenly abiding which is in Christ.

First the natural...THEN the spiritual. Unless you understand that the NT is about spiritual things..locations entered into through Christ...then you will fail to understand the bible.

The carnal mind cannot receive spiritual things. So then a scheme is conjured up that is based very loosely on the bible...conveniently ignoring things like trembling before God and fearing that we too will end up just like the people who went before us...which is basically happening in real time. They were NOT repentant...and as we see the story continues.

And the audience are mostly seekers as I will explain further. There are some new believers, still in an immature state of spiritual growth. And there are even non-believers amongst them as the use of the term 'brother' was a conventional, meant to capture his main targeted audience; the seekers, not yet in Christ.

All of the Israelites were believers....they just lacked faith. Did they believe it was God who led them in the wilderness? YES..of course. They saw the mighty works of God first-hand. They were ALL believers in God. BUT.....they didn't trust that God was giving them something good...that they would benefit from what God wanted...so they lacked trust in God...and faith in His character. They saw His hard training and assumed that God had an evil intent for them...and He did if we are speaking of their religiously puffed up egos and rebellious ways. The outer man will ALWAYS the resist the Spirit. So God was trying to save them....away from their carnal state...but the people thought that the death that God wanted for them...that gives them life...had no good end. So then their faith was overthrown. They believed in God...but didn't trust Him with their lives. History continues to repeat itself.

The modern version of this is to make up a god in our own minds...one that puts us (the ego-driven persona) on a pedestal. So then the Israelites at least could testify to actual interventions by God...without all the pretending. So in some ways we are worse than they were. But what we share in common with them is the lack of faith that makes us unable to enter into God's rest.

I believe there were not many mature believers at that time, since Pentecost was most probably less than 20 years ago.

In summary, the Author's context of Hebrews 3:15 through 4:3 emphasizes the need for faith, obedience, and perseverance in order to avoid the pitfalls of disbelief and disobedience, and to ultimately enter God’s rest. Remember these were seekers not yest believer's in Christ.

Hebrews 3:15-19 warns against hardening one’s heart and not listening to God’s voice, drawing a parallel to the Israelites who did not enter the Promised Land due to their disobedience and unbelief. The passage emphasizes the importance of remaining steadfast in faith and not falling into the same trap as the Israelites.

Hebrews 4:1-3 introduces the concept of entering God’s rest, which is not a physical location but a spiritual state of peace and fulfillment.

Not a zen-like experience but an actual translation into the spiritual realm. You are more eastern mystical in your approach...but the Hebrews are VERY practical. If Paul says he is seated in heavenly places...that's not a metaphor or vain philosophy.

There is a big difference between having beliefs and having faith. Beliefs don't cost us anything...they are basically opinions. But we are not saved by beliefs or opinions...but by God's power and faith. We are saved INTO a place..in Christ...where there is NO sin...just God's holy presence. THAT is the gospel in full resolution. Salvation is about walking in the perfection of Christ NOW. Put on Christ....put on the New Man...and have victory over sin, the flesh, the devil and the world.....to walk as Jesus walked.

 

[Ritajanice]

 

[Lizbeth]

All of the Israelites were believers....they just lacked faith.

Whoa. No. The Israelites were like most Catholics are.....nominal believers who have only heard and read ABOUT God but don't KNOW Him personally. Believers are those who have met and know the Lord by FAITH......we received faith that is not of our own by being birthed in the Spirit and receiving His Spirit within.....a miraculous experience.....in order to be able to believe in and know the Lord personally, entering into a mutual living relationship with the Living God. The Israelites lacked a relationship with the Lord by faith, except for a few.. Sins have separated all mankind from God....being born of Christ through faith is what reconciles us to God, no longer separated from Him but restored back into relationship/connection with Him. That is why the gospel is a ministry of reconciliation. And the bible says we believers who have received the Holy Spirit have been marked in Him with that seal, the promised Holy Spirit who is the "EARNEST OF OUR INHERITANCE" - AKA our inheritance is eternal life/immortal body.


"they just lacked faith"....as if that is no big deal when it is the difference between eternal life and no eternal life, AKA being saved and not being saved! Who has not the Spirit is none of His.