Calling all Law Keepers.

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Richard_oti

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Thanks RO
I'm having some difficulty absorbing this because it's a new idea.
However, I will be looking into it to see if I could understand it better.

Understood.


I also know that Jesus died at the exact time that the Passover was to be observed. The sacrifice, of course. At 3 P.M. The same time Jesus died. I also know that from the hill where the crucifixion took place, Golgatha, the place (was it the temple?) where the sacrifice was to be made could be seen.

Is this true?

I can not say from first hand experience.
 

Richard_oti

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Sorry RO,
It's me again.

No problem. Everytime I reply to you, you probably think: Oh, it's him again. <chuckle>


You said one cannot partake of a sacrifice before it is slain.
Maybe the Last Supper was a day before so Jesus could be slain at the same time of the sacrifice?

THEN HE would be our sacrifice??

Well obviously, the "Last Supper" was the day before. However the "Last Supper" was not the Passover which can be seen in Mark, Luke and John (cf Mark 14:12 ; Luke 22:7 ; John 18:28, 19:14 , 19:31). From haTorah, it is very clear IMO.
 

GodsGrace

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Understood.




I can not say from first hand experience.
Sorry RO
I meant for you to comment on the fact that the last supper was a day before so that the next day Jesus could be the Passover...

He would have eaten the Passover the day before and been the Passover the next day.

You must know that there's some debate as to when Jesus and apostles had the Passover Seder.
 

GodsGrace

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No problem. Everytime I reply to you, you probably think: Oh, it's him again. <chuckle>
LOL
No! I learn things from you.

Well obviously, the "Last Supper" was the day before. However the "Last Supper" was not the Passover which can be seen in Mark, Luke and John (cf Mark 14:12 ; Luke 22:7 ; John 18:28, 19:14 , 19:31). From haTorah, it is very clear IMO.
Oops.
This is maybe the answer to my last post to you. No. 743.
 

KBCid

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To sum up, yes, Paul is encouraging us to keep the "feast", but he is also using it as an example as I sort of laid out above. Paul was very proficient with regard to haTorah. I am so rusty that it is embarrassing.

So you do see that the feast was not to be done away with. And as in all things that came from God they have depth in their meaning.
So here is where I ask "if God put one day in place with its own specific depth of meaning why would Christ change it from a yearly celebration to a weekly one?" Christ has been adamant about doing things just as the Father did and to change the celebration of the forming of the new covenant along with the sealing of it in blood by the testator to anything other than yearly does not ring true for me.

Lets make a distinction here, the reference here is to the "Lord's Supper". The "Lord's Supper" is not Passover. It is separate and distinct from Passover. For upon the night that the "Lord's Supper" was shall we say instituted, it was not Passover that the Messiah and his disciples ate. The Passover seder would have been the following evening. One can not partake of the sacrifice before it is slain.

As I have noted I see the Lord's supper on the same day as Passover just earlier in the day and you are correct about Seder. Now this ritual of Passover was a celebration ritual that was done so that Israel would always remember how God saved them from death but we should also recognize that the agreement was made on the 14th;

21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover. 22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning. 23 For the Lord will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the Lord will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you. 24 And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever. 25 And it shall come to pass, when ye be come to the land which the Lord will give you, according as he hath promised, that ye shall keep this service. 26 And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say unto you, What mean ye by this service? 27 That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the Lord's passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses.

See the agreement between Israel and God was made on the 14th and sealed on the 14th when the lambs were slayed and the blood put on the posts then God honored the agreement during the beginning of the 15th.
Christ made the new agreement on the 14th and then sealed the agreement on the 14th in exactly the same manner as Moses had done during the first agreement. The agreement and sacrifice to seal it is made on the 14th and the Children of Israel were directed to keep this as an ordinance forever. This ritual was commanded to be kept once a year by the Father according to his will and Christ who followed the fulfilling of it would not have altered anything about it since he always followed what he sees the Father do.
So for me I see this ritual being continued according to its fulfillment just as God intended it to be observed as he showed them from the beginning of the agreement. The only difference now is that we can tell our children that we do this thing because it is the sacrifice of the Lord who gave his life (life is in the blood) to cover our past sins. All the symbolism of the prophetic past is fulfilled by Christ but the times defined according to Gods will would carry on even to the point that it would be done in the promised land which of course the chosen of God have yet to inherit.
 

GodsGrace

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So you do see that the feast was not to be done away with. And as in all things that came from God they have depth in their meaning.
So here is where I ask "if God put one day in place with its own specific depth of meaning why would Christ change it from a yearly celebration to a weekly one?" Christ has been adamant about doing things just as the Father did and to change the celebration of the forming of the new covenant along with the sealing of it in blood by the testator to anything other than yearly does not ring true for me.



As I have noted I see the Lord's supper on the same day as Passover just earlier in the day and you are correct about Seder. Now this ritual of Passover was a celebration ritual that was done so that Israel would always remember how God saved them from death but we should also recognize that the agreement was made on the 14th;

21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover. 22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning. 23 For the Lord will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the Lord will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you. 24 And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever. 25 And it shall come to pass, when ye be come to the land which the Lord will give you, according as he hath promised, that ye shall keep this service. 26 And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say unto you, What mean ye by this service? 27 That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the Lord's passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses.

See the agreement between Israel and God was made on the 14th and sealed on the 14th when the lambs were slayed and the blood put on the posts then God honored the agreement during the beginning of the 15th.
Christ made the new agreement on the 14th and then sealed the agreement on the 14th in exactly the same manner as Moses had done during the first agreement. The agreement and sacrifice to seal it is made on the 14th and the Children of Israel were directed to keep this as an ordinance forever. This ritual was commanded to be kept once a year by the Father according to his will and Christ who followed the fulfilling of it would not have altered anything about it since he always followed what he sees the Father do.
So for me I see this ritual being continued according to its fulfillment just as God intended it to be observed as he showed them from the beginning of the agreement. The only difference now is that we can tell our children that we do this thing because it is the sacrifice of the Lord who gave his life (life is in the blood) to cover our past sins. All the symbolism of the prophetic past is fulfilled by Christ but the times defined according to Gods will would carry on even to the point that it would be done in the promised land which of course the chosen of God have yet to inherit.

Was the Seder eaten after sundown?
In NY Jewish persons eat the Seder at sundown.
Why do you say the last supper was eaten earlier?
 

mjrhealth

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Dont even know why this is being discussed,

Luk 22:24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.

Doesnt matter doesnt add one dot to ones salvation, not one.
 

KBCid

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Was the Seder eaten after sundown?
In NY Jewish persons eat the Seder at sundown.
Why do you say the last supper was eaten earlier?

Here is the foundational scripture that Seder is based on;
Ex 12:3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house: 4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb. 5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: 6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. 7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it. 8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.

14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.

According to the text the Lamb is killed in the evening of the 14th day which would be in the afternoon at about 3pm (9th hour). The lamb is then roasted and then the meal is eaten so, by most peoples reckoning the cooking of the lamb would take until sunset to finish cooking and the meal would begin after sunset.

The last supper would of necessity have been prior to the Passover since Christ was to be the sacrificial lamb killed at 3pm on the 14th. Christ and the apostles ate in the evening of the 13th which at sundown was the beginning of the 14th, then later during that night Christ was taken and at some point in the morning of the 14th he was crucified, it was noted that the sky went dark at noon and then he expired in the evening about 3pm. Christ had to be removed from the cross and placed in the tomb prior to the 15th since it was a high holy day (1st day of unleavened bread) and no work was allowed.
 
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KBCid

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Dont even know why this is being discussed,
Luk 22:24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
Doesnt matter doesnt add one dot to ones salvation, not one.

Is this subject not dealing with the word of God?
Is it not written more than once that man shall live by every word of the mouth of God?
By your measure how much of scripture should we simply ignore because it has no bearing on salvation? I would be interested to hear from you exactly what scriptures we can simply remove from the book because they have no bearing on salvation.

I would also say that IF some of Gods words have no bearing on salvation then the inspired scripture restated by Christ himself should simply read "Man shall live by some of the words of God".
 
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mjrhealth

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Is it not written more than once that man shall live by every word of the mouth of God?
No, and you surprise me you write so much good stuff,

Mat_4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

You know that bit, about my sheep hear my voice. or did you miss this bit,

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God sent us His Spirit, not a bible instructor, but one top lead us into teh truth, and who is the Truth, Jesus Christ in Him there is no lie. That is why Jesus said,

Joh_6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

So when we hear Him, we get that bread which is life and we grow. There is no life in teh bible, it only points us to teh one who is.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

all these years later, still so few will go to Him

Narrow is teh way that leads to life,

Jesus said, " I am teh way".
 
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KBCid

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No, and you surprise me you write so much good stuff,
You know that bit, about my sheep hear my voice. or did you miss this bit,

I know both bits quite well. I also know that his voice comes through scripture.

God sent us His Spirit, not a bible instructor, but one top lead us into teh truth, and who is the Truth, Jesus Christ in Him there is no lie. That is why Jesus said,...

mj I will ask you a simple question here since you referenced the HS. What exactly is the HS supposed to do for us? Look it up and provide the description that scripture states.
Please realize that I do not wish to downplay what is in your heart but, I must follow God's instruction in this matter.
 

ScottA

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Interjecting...

It is the parables that Jesus spoke that explain as a fulfillment of prophecy and an example, that "all things come in parables", and that the words of Him whose "words are spirit" "must be discerned spiritually."
 
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GodsGrace

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Here is the foundational scripture that Seder is based on;
Ex 12:3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house: 4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb. 5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: 6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. 7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it. 8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.

14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.

According to the text the Lamb is killed in the evening of the 14th day which would be in the afternoon at about 3pm (9th hour). The lamb is then roasted and then the meal is eaten so, by most peoples reckoning the cooking of the lamb would take until sunset to finish cooking and the meal would begin after sunset.

The last supper would of necessity have been prior to the Passover since Christ was to be the sacrificial lamb killed at 3pm on the 14th. Christ and the apostles ate in the evening of the 13th which at sundown was the beginning of the 14th, then later during that night Christ was taken and at some point in the morning of the 14th he was crucified, it was noted that the sky went dark at noon and then he expired in the evening about 3pm. Christ had to be removed from the cross and placed in the tomb prior to the 15th since it was a high holy day (1st day of unleavened bread) and no work was allowed.
Thanks KBC.
I had forgotten about the hurry to bring Jesus to the tomb that was prepared for Him.
I appreciate you time.
 

amadeus

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I said MY DOCTRINAL beliefs were set. Doctrinal.
I learn new things all the time concerning some matter or other that is biblical --- but my DOCTRINAL ideas will not change anymore at this point.

If someone can change a DOCTRINAL belief after 40 years of study, it means they are not very set in their beliefs or they were ignorant of something or other before.
If a doctrinal belief has been wrong for 40 years [Notice please that I am not saying that yours was or is] could it not be because the Holy Ghost was quenched by such a person for 40 years and finally the truth of the matter is being brought in through a tiny opening the person has now allowed in his previously solid wall?

Study is by the way NOT, as I understand it, the way to God's truth:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

I really do believe that many or even most church groups do effectively teach people to quench the Holy Ghost in them and they effectively stopped growing toward God. Of course these churches seldom if ever do this knowingly, but nonetheless...