Calling all Law Keepers.

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Richard_oti

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hmm interesting, would fit with the symbology i guess huh. We might note how Jesus Cults tend to not be very forgiving, etc too. Have to look into the "all bread, no cup " thing a little more, i guess :)

Per the symbolism, all the worse for partaking of the "body", without the "covering". (cf 2 Peter 2:20-21)
 

Richard_oti

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So you do see that the feast was not to be done away with.

Indubitably!


And as in all things that came from God they have depth in their meaning.

Indeed.

Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing; But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.


So here is where I ask "if God put one day in place with its own specific depth of meaning why would Christ change it from a yearly celebration to a weekly one?"

In the above you state: "if God put one day ...". By "day" what precisely are you referring unto? Based upon your further reply, I am assuming you are referring unto the day of the 14th.

The Passover is a sacrifice, it is not a day. By the time it is roasted whole, it was partaken of the evening beginning the 15th.

Shemot 12:14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial, and ye shall keep it a feast
to YHVH: throughout your generations ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

Shemot 12:17 And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame
day have I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this
day throughout your generations by an ordinance for ever.

Shemot 12:42 Because YHVH kept *vigil* that night to bring them out of Egypt, on this
night all the Israelites are to keep *vigil* to honor YHVH for the generations to come.

What specific day is spoken of above? What specific night is spoken of above?

For that is the memorial.

Deuteronomy 16:7 Roast it and eat it at the place YHVH your
God will choose. *Then in the morning return to your tents.*

Our Messiah did not change the time of that, it still stands. For us, we remember our Passover sacrifice and the deliverance thereof. That remains a yearly observance `olam.


Speaking of this, and I know that I am getting sidetracked, but did you ever notice the similarities in Shemot 13:16 vs. Rev 13:16?

Compare Shemot 13:9, Devarim 6:8 and 11:18. What are the two things spoken of in Shemot and Devarim? And no, it's not what follows, what follows is where those two things are to be.

Forehead : hand ; Thoughts : actions. The part of the brain we think and reason with is the frontal lobe. Which is why a lobotomy works. Where was the blood to be applied upon the doorway?


Christ has been adamant about doing things just as the Father did and to change the celebration of the forming of the new covenant along with the sealing of it in blood by the testator to anything other than yearly does not ring true for me.

Nothing is or has been changed. The "Last Supper" is not the memorial spoken of in Shemot 12. It is a new thing. Did you ever notice that John's Gospel does not contain the "Last Supper". It's just a supper. Not the whole breaking of bread do this in remembrance of me.

In fact, Matthew and Mark do not contain the phrase "do this in remembrance of me". It is not until Luke, that we encounter that phrase, and it is only after the bread, not the cup. It is not until 1 Corinthians, that we see both the bread and the cup in remembrance. So we have one witness that says nothing, John. We have two witnesses that omit the phrase. And one witness a piece that contain the phrase, but with regard to the bread alone, and both the bread and cup.

The "Last Supper" is the evening beginning the 14th. There is nothing within haTorah with regard to that evening. To make that evening into a yearly observance is fine, I can see nothing wrong with it. However, it is not something that is an absolute. You must decide for yourself regarding this, not I nor anyone else except YHVH through haRuakh haQodesh. I can however, challenge you regarding it.

The "bread" of the "Last Supper" is recorded as artos. As the timing of the "Last Supper" is not within nor under any requirement to be "unleavened", it was in all probability a raised loaf. If we drop back to Luke, what specifically is being done in "remembrance"? In Luke 22:17, what specifically were they instructed to do?

To be continued.
 

Richard_oti

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Part 2:

As I have noted I see the Lord's supper on the same day as Passover just earlier in the day and you are correct about Seder. Now this ritual of Passover was a celebration ritual that was done so that Israel would always remember how God saved them from death but we should also recognize that the agreement was made on the 14th;

Shemot 12:21-27 <snip for brevity>

Yes, I added the italicized text.

Again, with love as a brother, the Passover is not a day, it is a sacrifice. The memorial follows the sacrifice, IOW it is after the sacrifice, that is the memorial, the night to keep watch / vigil unto YHVH, until the morning of the 15th.

BTW: 'Elohim help you if you dozed off with my family. I dozed off, and woke up with make-up, painted finger nails and snazzy new hair do.

The "Last / Lord's Supper" and Passover are not the same. The "Last / Lord's Supper" is separate and different from Passover / Unleavened.


Of all such type offerings, this is the only one that I recall that is to specifically be baked with "leaven". All others are specifically to be without "leaven". Though memory is nagging that there may be another, however it also would not be offered upon the altar.

VaYiqra 23:17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave-loaves of two tenth parts of an ephah: they shall be of fine flour, they shall be baken with leaven, for first-fruits unto YHVH.

I can not offer any real explanation. However, let us remember:

Shemot 34:22a And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, even of the first-fruits of wheat harvest ...

John 12:23 And Jesus answereth them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a grain of wheat fall into the earth and die, it abideth by itself alone; but if it die, it beareth much fruit.

Food for thought.


To sum up, IMO once we begin to examine the specifics with a critical eye, this begins to become clear.

Again, I also once saw it as you do.


See the agreement between Israel and God was made on the 14th and sealed on the 14th when the lambs were slayed and the blood put on the posts then God honored the agreement during the beginning of the 15th.

Shemot 12:14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial, and ye shall keep it a feast
to YHVH: throughout your generations ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

Shemot 12:17 And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame
day
have I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this
day
throughout your generations by an ordinance for ever.

Shemot 12:42 Because YHVH kept *vigil* that night to bring them out of Egypt, on this
night all the Israelites are to keep *vigil* to honor YHVH for the generations to come.

I know ... repetitious.

What specifically did the blood do? Or perhaps I should ask, what purpose did the blood serve? At what time(frame) did the blood come into play?


Christ made the new agreement on the 14th and then sealed the agreement on the 14th in exactly the same manner as Moses had done during the first agreement. The agreement and sacrifice to seal it is made on the 14th and the Children of Israel were directed to keep this as an ordinance forever. This ritual was commanded to be kept once a year by the Father according to his will and Christ who followed the fulfilling of it would not have altered anything about it since he always followed what he sees the Father do.

IMO: You are focusing too much upon the "day", as in the 14th. The 14th itself in not an "appointed" day, it is the sacrifice that is "appointed". The Passover is not a day, it is an appointed sacrifice within a given month(s), upon a given day, at the given time(frame). By the time that sacrifice is roasted whole, it was partaken of upon the 15th. If you will pardon the expression, it is the meal which "kicks off" the Feast upon the 15th. The 15th is an appointed time, an appointed day. It was upon the 15th, that the blood was a covering from destruction. It is the 15th that is the memorial. It is the night of the 15th, that since YHVH kept watch through the night to deliver them from bondage, so also shall we keep watch through the night unto YHVH 'Eloheynu.

If for any reason someone is away upon a journey, or unclean on account of a dead body (I wonder why <grin>), the Passover, the sacrifice, may be observed in the second month. It is not the "day", it is the "sacrifice". However, that being said, even should someone be unclean on account of a dead body, the 15th day of the first month, is still the appointed time. Is still the memorial. It is only the sacrifice that is allowed within the second month.


So for me I see this ritual being continued according to its fulfillment just as God intended it to be observed as he showed them from the beginning of the agreement. The only difference now is that we can tell our children that we do this thing because it is the sacrifice of the Lord who gave his life (life is in the blood) to cover our past sins. All the symbolism of the prophetic past is fulfilled by Christ but the times defined according to Gods will would carry on even to the point that it would be done in the promised land which of course the chosen of God have yet to inherit.

I do understand your thoughts and position, I have walked in that place.

Let us just remember, it is the 15th which is the appointed memorial.

As for myself, I shall continue in what I have been convinced thereof: To keep the Feast, which is, or should I say, starts the 15th, to keep watch through the night. As for the "Last Supper", as oft as I break bread, I shall do so in memory of our Messiah. With a raised loaf. Any month, any week, any day or everyday. And yes, I do know those who only keep the evening beginning the 14th. I know those who "break bread" at any given time, and also maintain doing so upon the 14th and keep the 15th. The "Last Supper" does not replace nor change the appointed time which is the 15th. Only the reason for our memorial has changed, not the time of the memorial / Feast.

So to conclude: I must conclude that the inventor of the bread slicer was the anti-christ! That inventor, attempted to stop us from "breaking bread" together!
<hearty chuckle>
 

Richard_oti

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Dont even know why this is being discussed,

Because we're enjoying it.


Luk 22:24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.

No, I see us as equals. If anything, I would be the least.

OTOH: Thanks MjrHealth! Now we may start arguing over which of us shall be least! Way to go!
<hearty chuckle>


Doesnt matter doesnt add one dot to ones salvation, not one.

Did you ever notice or compare Revelation 13:16 with Exodus 13:16?

How about Deuteronomy 6:8 and 11:18?


And yet:

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.

As someone once said, the "devil's" in the details. Of course, IMO, they either said that to keep us from looking into the details and coming to know the fullness of a subject. Or, because of the questions that the details can raise, they considered it the "devil's" doing as in the Genesis account with regard to the serpent.

Perhaps one day, I shall inquire with regard to the "details" from whence that phrase came.
 

KBCid

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Part 2: So to conclude: I must conclude that the inventor of the bread slicer was the anti-christ! That inventor, attempted to stop us from "breaking bread" together! <hearty chuckle>

I concede that he was anti-Christ..... and I may have bought one because my wife deceived me saying it would give us more time to spend with God... ;)

I will study further on the aspect concerning this discussion of the last supper ritual and I will put a ticket in with the HS to clarify it for me a sinful man who is not worthy to either break the bread or drink the wine.
Take note that your input I value as it is not possible for one to have so much right without guidance of the spirit and as such your words will not be taken lightly. IF for any reason your perspective may be in error then I would simply consider you as Abimelech which also I pray God will consider me and my own errors which have been many.

If you have another item from past posts that you wish to touch on I am ready to move forward.
 
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Richard_oti

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I concede that he was anti-Christ..... and I may have bought one because my wife deceived me saying it would give us more time to spend with God... ;)

<hearty chuckle> That's too funny! Well played Sir!


I will study further on the aspect concerning this discussion of the last supper ritual and I will put a ticket in with the HS to clarify it for me a sinful man who is not worthy to either break the bread or drink the wine.

That makes two of us.


Take note that your input I value as it is not possible for one to have so much right without guidance of the spirit and as such your words will not be taken lightly. IF for any reason your perspective may be in error then I would simply consider you as Abimelech which also I pray God will consider me and my own errors which have been many.

At least you would consider me as Abimelech. That's better than Jeroboam! And please, feel free to challenge me!

Jam 5:19 My brethren, if any among you err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 let him know, that he who converteth a sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.

Seems I read something to that effect somewhere else... hmm, where would that have been I wonder... <grin>

Besides, I could use all the covering I can get.


If you have another item from past posts that you wish to touch on I am ready to move forward.

I don't recall anything currently. But if something comes to mind, I shall be sure to inquire. Thanks for an enjoyable discussion! It is greatly appreciated.
 

mjrhealth

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And because;
Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

But my hope is In Jesus,

Joh_10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

And that is where it will remain, and no studying has ever saved anyone. Like Saul

Php_3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

So much for Him being a pharisee of pharisees, still didnt know Jesus, so few leaned men do.

1Co_1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
I do wonder how many learned men would be willing to forgoe there pride, and go to God, and ? say" God after 40 years of study, i know greek, hebrew latin and can quote every text in the bible", but i would give all this up to know you". Not many will so not many do.
 
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GodsGrace

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But my hope is In Jesus,

Joh_10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

And that is where it will remain, and no studying has ever saved anyone. Like Saul

Php_3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

So much for Him being a pharisee of pharisees, still didnt know Jesus, so few leaned men do.

1Co_1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
I do wonder how many learned men would be willing to forgoe there pride, and go to God, and ? say" God after 40 years of study, i know greek, hebrew latin and can quote every text in the bible", but i would give all this up to know you". Not many will so not many do.
JESUS SAID:
John 5:24
 

bbyrd009

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Per the symbolism, all the worse for partaking of the "body", without the "covering". (cf 2 Peter 2:20-21)
yikes, check this out:

I’ve been wondering about this issue for a while now and wanted to get some input *(please forgive me if I don’t get all of the terms correct). *

I always SEE the priest consecrate the body first; then the blood. The priest partakes of both. He consumes the body (host), then drinks the blood (wine). However, when the people line up to receive the same, they only receive the Eucharistic Host (body). No wine, whether diluted or otherwise, is ever given to those who attend the mass.

Someone told me that decision to withhold the “blood” dates back to the Council of Trent. Still another tried to convince me that the body AND blood are contained within the Host. But if this were true, the priest would have no need to even bother with the wine because the body AND blood are already in the Host.

Therein lies my biggest confusion.

I know it can’t be “symbolic” because Catholics believe that this is the real body and blood of Jesus, so why can’t the priest share the WINE blood with everybody else? Why is it that only the priest drinks the wine, while the rest of us just consume the Host if the Host truly is the body AND BLOOD of Jesus?
Why Bread Only and Not Wine?


wow and i guess unleavened bread, not leavened, for Catholics, too, hmm; or oops, or whatever.
Ah and i guess GMOs are fine, but gluten-free is not?
So Monsanto got to the Vatican, i guess
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...e-bread-no-go-when-comes-communion/467305001/

hopefully no Catholics will wander in here, i have no desire to debate this...stuff, and the RCC is beleaguered enough i guess. But yikes.
 
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KBCid

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But my hope is In Jesus,

1Co_1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
I do wonder how many learned men would be willing to forgoe there pride, and go to God, and ? say" God after 40 years of study, i know greek, hebrew latin and can quote every text in the bible", but i would give all this up to know you". Not many will so not many do.

Are you supposing that our hope is not also in Christ who is the payment for our sins and also the Father who sent the Son for that purpose?
There are some of us who depend on the HS guidance and when the Lord so directs that guidance to occur we give it our full focus but, in the mean time when we are not being directly addressed we seek to be in the kingdom to come immersed in Gods word continually because we love God. Now God has chosen in their infinite wisdom to cause their words to be written by inspired individuals of their choosing so that we who LOVE them can continue our intake from them when they are not directly speaking to us.

Those who have come to some understanding of God know that we are not given all truth at once but, rather line upon line, bit by bit as we grow towards their likeness.
 

mjrhealth

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Those who have come to some understanding of God know that we are not given all truth at once but, rather line upon line, bit by bit as we grow towards their likeness.
Amen.

God gives us all a bit, not enough to become proud and arrogant, we all have a bit of teh puzzle, but you see, you are supposed to go to God and ask teh questions, than He will reveal it to you, and if its in the bible its even more exciting, but most go to teh bible read it, get there understanding and expect God to agree with them and He has no cause to, that is why learning and study gets in the way.

And when Peter spoke.

Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

that was not teh word of God, Jesus said so

Mat_16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Dont mix what HE says with what everyone else said.
 

mjrhealth

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are you saying that Paul didn't know Christ here?
Well He didnt

Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Big difference between "knowing about", and "knowing".
 
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ScottA

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Are you supposing that our hope is not also in Christ who is the payment for our sins and also the Father who sent the Son for that purpose?
There are some of us who depend on the HS guidance and when the Lord so directs that guidance to occur we give it our full focus but, in the mean time when we are not being directly addressed we seek to be in the kingdom to come immersed in Gods word continually because we love God. Now God has chosen in their infinite wisdom to cause their words to be written by inspired individuals of their choosing so that we who LOVE them can continue our intake from them when they are not directly speaking to us.

Those who have come to some understanding of God know that we are not given all truth at once but, rather line upon line, bit by bit as we grow towards their likeness.
I believe our friend mjrhealth shares the same frustration that I do. The when we read "today is the day of salvation", and that we "have become a new creation" that "old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new" - we take that to mean "It is finished."

And is saddens us that you should be caught up in a snare any longer:

Isaiah 28:13
But the word of the Lord was to them, “Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little,” That they might go and fall backward, and be broken And snared and caught.
 
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