Calvinism is a Cult

[SovereignGrace]

A person cannot come to Christ (or otherwise receive a change of opinion) unless the Holy Spirit convicts and/or draws them.

Correct. And the Greek word for draw means to literally drag off. No, that doesn’t mean He drags us kicking and screaming, but that He effectually draws them. The same Greek word is used in John 18:10 where Peter drew his sword and Peter drew the net to shore in John 21:11. Both verses, that Greek word shows that those who drew their object, they effectually drew it.

 

[Mjh29]

A person cannot come to Christ (or otherwise receive a change of opinion) unless the Holy Spirit convicts and/or draws them.

What good does the drawing do? It doesn't effect me... I have to choose! And plus, if I do end up accepting, I was only drawn because of my merit of good choice God foresaw! So really, He contributed about half of what I did in my salvation! I'M the one that saved myself!
[Of course this is not what I believe, just showing you why it doesn't make any sense.]

 

[SovereignGrace]

That implies that He chose others to damnation.

No my friend. Election is unto salvation, not damnation. He justly left the others in their already condemned state.

 

[justbyfaith]

What good does the drawing do? It doesn't effect me... I have to choose! And plus, if I do end up accepting, I was only drawn because of my merit of good choice God foresaw! So really, He contributed about half of what I did in my salvation! I'M the one that saved myself!
[Of course this is not what I believe, just showing you why it doesn't make any sense.]

The drawing enables you to make an unhindered choice, either for or against the Lord. He draws everyone at some point. In the day of salvation He helps you. So if you feel that you are being faced with the choice to either receive or reject Christ at any given moment, then He is definitely drawing you to Himself at that moment. But you cannot even make a choice that is unhindered by the enemy, the flesh, or the world unless he is specifically drawing you to salvation.

 

[SovereignGrace]

ἑλκύω

Helko

1) to draw, drag off

2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel

 

[SovereignGrace]

The drawing enables you to make an unhindered choice, either for or against the Lord. He draws everyone at some point. In the day of salvation He helps you. So if you feel that you are being faced with the choice to either receive or reject Christ at any given moment, then He is definitely drawing you to Himself at that moment. But you cannot even make a choice that is unhindered by the enemy, the flesh, or the world unless he is specifically drawing you to salvation.

How does He draw everyone when not everyone has heard the gospel?

 

[justbyfaith]

No my friend. Election is unto salvation, not damnation. He justly left the others in their already condemned state.

But He chose not to die for certain people even before they were born. And this was done unconditionally, based on nothing except the freewill choice of the Lord.

 

[justbyfaith]

How does He draw everyone when not everyone has heard the gospel?

Rom 10:18, But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

 

[SovereignGrace]

But He chose not to die for certain people even before they were born. And this was done unconditionally, based on nothing except the freewill choice of the Lord.

He wasn’t beholden to any of them, yet His Son came and died for a bunch of vile, wicked, sinful, God-hating ppl. We were just as vile as those who die lost.[Ephesians 2:3]

 

[justbyfaith]

I'll be back later.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Rom 10:18, But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

So, ppl who died hours after the Christ died on the cross heard the gospel before they died?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Rom 10:18, But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

So, ppl living in South America(in the days of the Christ’s earthly life)and died before missionaries got to them heard the gospel? Srsly?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Every time you take on a Calvinist you get dusted,

Like a crop...

 

[Jane_Doe22]

What good does the drawing do? It doesn't effect me... I have to choose! And plus, if I do end up accepting, I was only drawn because of my merit of good choice God foresaw! So really, He contributed about half of what I did in my salvation! I'M the one that saved myself!
[Of course this is not what I believe, just showing you why it doesn't make any sense.]

Would you like to understand how this from a non-Calvinist perspective?

 

[Mjh29]

Would you like to understand how this from a non-Calvinist perspective?

Sure, I'm open to conversation. I mean, I believe what I believe, so to be perfectly fair before hand I will be defending my beliefs, but if someone wants to have a rational, respectful conversation with me I am more than happy to.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Sure, I'm open to conversation. I mean, I believe what I believe, so to be perfectly fair before hand I will be defending my beliefs, but if someone wants to have a rational, respectful conversation with me I am more than happy to.

Note: if I explain things, it would be for the sake of explaining, not for the sake of trying to convince you of anything --- I consider such trying-to-convince motivations to be disrespectful, unproductive, and all around undesirable. So no need to defend anything, cause nothing is under attack. My chosen path is that of respect, civilness, and, just sharing perspectives, like my earlier asking you about your beleifs.

 

[Mjh29]

Note: if I explain things, it would be for the sake of explaining, not for the sake of trying to convince you of anything --- I consider such trying-to-convince motivations to be disrespectful, unproductive, and all around undesirable. So no need to defend anything, cause nothing is under attack. My chosen path is that of respect, civilness, and, just sharing perspectives, like my earlier asking you about your beleifs.

Absolutely. No problems here with that at all. Please continue.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

With all the Calvinists and quasi-Calvinists posting I think this thread is necessary.

I agree with the widely held belief Calvinism is a cult.

The God of Calvinism does not resemble the God of the Bible.

The salvation of Calvinism is not biblical. God does not create/appoint some salvation and some to damnation with a total rejection of free will.

That is a short and sweet of it. But these two aspects of Christianity are enough to judge it by.

Well, I'm saddened you hold this aberrant position brother.

I would however like you to try and defend your above assertions with Scripture. So far it is all conjecture and is purely subjective.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Absolutely. No problems here with that at all. Please continue.

Ok.

I'm going to start with a metaphor here: a man comes up to you and says "Mjh29, I love you so much, I bought you a mansion. Here's the keys. Please, come live in this wonderful mansion. I even hired a moving company to pack and move all your stuff, handled all the paper work, and everything is good to go. Here are the keys, please come live in this wonderful place."

In such a case, you have not in any way earned this mansion-- ALL of this is an underserved gift for free. But it is a gift- you don't have to accept this.

Salvation is likewise: it is a FREE gift that you don't remotely earn. Christ did it all, and is now handing out the keys you totally don't deserve. To you, and to each other person, out of love.

 

[Mjh29]

Ok.

I'm going to start with a metaphor here: a man comes up to you and says "Mjh29, I love you so much, I want bought you a mansion. Here's the keys. Please, come live in this wonderful mansion. I even hired a moving company to pack and move all your stuff, handled all the paper work, and everything is good to go. Here are the keys, please come live in this wonderful place."

In such a case, you have not in any way earned this mansion-- ALL of this is an underserved gift for free. But it is a gift- you don't have to accept this.

Salvation is likewise: it is a FREE gift that you don't remotely earn. Christ did it all, and is now handing out the keys you totally don't deserve. To you, and to each other person, out of love.

Ok, very well constructed metaphor, and thank you for the kind approach, it is very refreshing. However, here is the problem for me; I am born blind to good things. You metaphor would 100% work, if I were not under the control of my father the Devil. I believe the problem is not with God, but with me; My own pride [sin nature] keeps me from accepting this free gift. And until Christ frees my will, and burries my pride Himself by the work of His Spirit, I will never accept this gift. It is almost akin to Romeo and Juliet. I am a metaphorical Montague, and the person trying to give me a free gift is a Capulet. No matter how enticing, or how kind spoken, I will never accept this gift unless God changes my will, and stops me from my blind, unjust hatred for Him.

Again, thank you for the polite conversation, it is enjoyable.