One other thing about Romans 10:9...God calls you to confess Jesus before men, because scripture interprets scripture (1 Corinthians 2:13 (kjv)), and Matthew 10:32 is also a part of the equation.
Calvinism is a Cult
- Thread starter CoreIssue
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
Rev. 3:20 is addressed to an apostate church, not unregenerate folk.
The Father giving someone to Jesus happened in eternity past. This was Him giving them to the Son to bear their sins upon Himself to atone for their sins. Drawing them to Christ happens in time via the gospel proclamation.
John 1:13 shows who those are who receive(d) Him who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
The Christ no one can come UNLESS they are drawn. We did not teach this, the Christ declared it.
The Christ reaches out His hand to see if they will extend theirs to Him? Bruh, that’s works.
Romans 10:9-17, we agree with it.
Yet many died never hearing the gospel, never having a bible in their hand. I guess they get to go into the eternal state to be with the Christ they knew NOTHING about?
Bruh, eisegesis is your mortal enemy, but exegesis is your friend.
The Father giving someone to Jesus happened in eternity past. This was Him giving them to the Son to bear their sins upon Himself to atone for their sins. Drawing them to Christ happens in time via the gospel proclamation.
John 1:13 shows who those are who receive(d) Him who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
The Christ no one can come UNLESS they are drawn. We did not teach this, the Christ declared it.
The Christ reaches out His hand to see if they will extend theirs to Him? Bruh, that’s works.
Romans 10:9-17, we agree with it.
Yet many died never hearing the gospel, never having a bible in their hand. I guess they get to go into the eternal state to be with the Christ they knew NOTHING about?
Bruh, eisegesis is your mortal enemy, but exegesis is your friend.
Apostates are regenerated? That is an interesting proposition...but I would discount it as heretical.
Scripture?
If this were true, then salvation is of man not of God, and that is works righteousness [regardless of what you say about faith and works being mutually exclusive. Yes, I read it, it just is not and cannot be true.]
Faith is given by God, even the measure of faith that we have -- Romans 12:3
Funny, Christ says He came to divide, and that He would save. Did he stretch out his hand the the paraplegic man? Nope. Did he say "Do you want to stand up now?" Nope. He commanded, and the man [regardless of his previous abilities....hmmm] did as commanded, and stood. Again, this illustration is driven to appeal to people's feelings. "Oh, it feels so right, it can't be wrong!" Sorry, I go by the Scriptures, because my heart can be and often is deceitful.
Context, Context, CONTEXT! Wow, you can pull these verses straight out of context and make them say anything you want.
~ John 1:12 -- READ THE NEXT VERSE!!! The Will of GOD causes them to receive Him. They were born again of the will of God, not of themselves. And after He rebirthed them, then they received Him, and He gave them power.
~ Revelation 3:20 -- Read the context. He is talking to the church of Laodicea, and is telling them of their spiritual luke-warmness. He is saying either open the doors of the church to me and my truth, or do not; but luke-warmness is not tolerated.
~ Revelation 22:17 -- The problem is, NO ONE is willing unless the Father make them so! [See John 1:12-13]
.... and the Scriptures. In Calvinism.... AND the Scriptures. [see John 6:44.]
C-C-C- CONTEXT!!!
Romans 10:9 -- Let's take a look at the beginning of the chapter, shall we??
Romans 10:3 -- For they, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God
Paul in the following verses is talking to those who are already born again! Not unbelievers.
This is a classic case of deja-poo. When you have a feeling you've seen this crap tried to be pulled before. This shows that your theology is based on 2 or 3 misinterpretations, and a whole heaping helping of feelings. Sorry the reply too so long.... it tends to take a while when you actually deal with every question head on.
Then they have access by grace into this faith wherein they stand...the opposite order than is mentioned in the Bible.
Not only in Romans 5:2, but here in John 1:12...where he gives them the right to become the children of God because they receive Him.
It cannot be true because you do not want to believe it? Even though it is what the Bible teaches!
You did not deal with every question.
Nope. This verse must be interpreted through the lens of Scripture. Ephesians 2:8 seems to contradict it. So then, we need to see what the whole of Scripture says about it.... is it grace or faith? Romans 9 shows us plainly that salvation is of God. This is called interpreting the whole of Scripture, not just one misinterpretation.
Ephesians 2:9-10. Not of works.... NOT what the Bible teaches.
You're right. I dealt with every Scripture, and ignored your feelings because I don't care what you feel is right. I don't argue subjectively, I argue objectively. Let me rephrase that; I answered every question that matters; the ones that have to do with actual Scripture
How so? it says that we are saved by grace through faith. What does the word "through" mean to you?
No, you did not.
That salvation is not of works IS INDEED what the Bible teaches. That it is by grace through faith IS what the Bible teaches.
I know. And if it by grace. The grace of God spurns us to faith through the Holy Spirit. Not of man grabbing hold of faith in and of himself.
Name the verses I didn't deal with, and I will explain them in context.
Back to square one.
The Father drawing someone to Jesus, and the Father giving someone to Jesus, are two different things.
When the Father draws a man to Christ, he is enabled to make an unhindered decision either for or against Christ.
If that person chooses Christ, then the Father gives them to Christ.
So then, it is not that they are regenerated in order to be able to have faith, but that the Holy Spirit draws them to Christ.
Christ reaches out His hand to them to see if they will take hold of it.
If His hand is not stretched out, there is no possibility of them being able to reach up and take hold of His hand.
Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rev 3:20, Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 22:17, And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Concerning the last verse here: If you do not say with the Spirit to the unbelieving, Come; are you not therefore not of His bride?
And yet in Calvinism, those who hold to it do not say to the unbelieving, Come.
For in Calvinism, no one has the ability to come to Christ, why then extend the invitation?
I would point out something simple that you should take to heart even if you believe in Calvinism. It is written,
2Co 6:1, We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2Co 6:2, (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
The word "succour" means to help.
So God helps you in the day of salvation, that is not in question.
But in Calvinism (and in the Bible), you cannot come to Christ unless the Father is drawing you/helping you.
But the point of this scripture is that now is the day of salvation.
So if He is calling you to make a decision for Him today, do not presume that, "Well, He is not really drawing me to Christ, and therefore I cannot come."
If the time that you are contemplating Christ is now, then it is the accepted time and the day of salvation.
You can call on the name of the Lord today and be saved.
You will not be able to excuse yourself on that day, saying, "But I thought that you had to be drawing me to Christ in that moment; and I believed that you were not doing so."
If the moment that you are being faced with the gospel message is now, then He is drawing you to Christ in that moment.
If you say yes to Christ, then the Father will give you to Christ.
Do not presume that you have been given to Christ if you have never called on His name or received Him.
Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rev 22:17, And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Rev 3:20, Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
The Father drawing someone to Jesus, and the Father giving someone to Jesus, are two different things.
When the Father draws a man to Christ, he is enabled to make an unhindered decision either for or against Christ.
If that person chooses Christ, then the Father gives them to Christ.
So then, it is not that they are regenerated in order to be able to have faith, but that the Holy Spirit draws them to Christ.
Christ reaches out His hand to them to see if they will take hold of it.
If His hand is not stretched out, there is no possibility of them being able to reach up and take hold of His hand.
Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rev 3:20, Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 22:17, And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Concerning the last verse here: If you do not say with the Spirit to the unbelieving, Come; are you not therefore not of His bride?
And yet in Calvinism, those who hold to it do not say to the unbelieving, Come.
For in Calvinism, no one has the ability to come to Christ, why then extend the invitation?
I would point out something simple that you should take to heart even if you believe in Calvinism. It is written,
2Co 6:1, We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2Co 6:2, (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
The word "succour" means to help.
So God helps you in the day of salvation, that is not in question.
But in Calvinism (and in the Bible), you cannot come to Christ unless the Father is drawing you/helping you.
But the point of this scripture is that now is the day of salvation.
So if He is calling you to make a decision for Him today, do not presume that, "Well, He is not really drawing me to Christ, and therefore I cannot come."
If the time that you are contemplating Christ is now, then it is the accepted time and the day of salvation.
You can call on the name of the Lord today and be saved.
You will not be able to excuse yourself on that day, saying, "But I thought that you had to be drawing me to Christ in that moment; and I believed that you were not doing so."
If the moment that you are being faced with the gospel message is now, then He is drawing you to Christ in that moment.
If you say yes to Christ, then the Father will give you to Christ.
Do not presume that you have been given to Christ if you have never called on His name or received Him.
Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rev 22:17, And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Rev 3:20, Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Guess what? CONTEXT! Read the next few verses, and you'll see that the verses in question are talking about believers, as they are specifically mentioned as the objects to whom Paul is speaking a few verses down
Explain. What is inadequate about it? I quoted Scripture, and showed you where Scripture contradicted what you tried to make it say. How is the inadequate?
You did not address the whole of the message that you were responding to, and also used flawed reasoning to try to refute the reasoning of the whole of the post that you were responding to.
Examples?
1.) I already told you; I address the Scriptures, not your feelings. I really don't care about what you feel, so I elected to not respond.
2.) The verses, however, I merely showed you where the rest of Scripture contradicted what you said. So what you are saying is that the Scriptures have flawed reasoning?
Concerning John 1:12-13, that the person is not born of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God, does not nullify the fact that He gives the right to become children of God to as many as receive Him.
A man cannot will himself to be saved, is what this is saying.
However, if Jesus is knocking on the door of your heart, He will not come in unless you willingly open the door...It is "whosoever will" according to Revelation 22:17.
The person who wills to take the water of life freely, or to receive Christ, is not born of himself, not by his own will, but by the fact that the Holy Spirit comes in to take residence in his heart.
The Holy Spirit is a gentleman and will not take residence in anyone's heart against their will.
So yes, when He is knocking, a person must open the door as an act of the will.
However, the person does not will himself to be saved, and he does not muster up his salvation...
Rather, he responds to the call of the Lord on his life by saying yes to the Lord when He knocks, and opening the door.
If the Lord were not knocking, he would not be able to save himself as an act of his will. A person is only saved when the Holy Spirit comes to take residence in the person's heart. Therefore they are born of God, but not against their will. They must receive.
A man cannot will himself to be saved, is what this is saying.
However, if Jesus is knocking on the door of your heart, He will not come in unless you willingly open the door...It is "whosoever will" according to Revelation 22:17.
The person who wills to take the water of life freely, or to receive Christ, is not born of himself, not by his own will, but by the fact that the Holy Spirit comes in to take residence in his heart.
The Holy Spirit is a gentleman and will not take residence in anyone's heart against their will.
So yes, when He is knocking, a person must open the door as an act of the will.
However, the person does not will himself to be saved, and he does not muster up his salvation...
Rather, he responds to the call of the Lord on his life by saying yes to the Lord when He knocks, and opening the door.
If the Lord were not knocking, he would not be able to save himself as an act of his will. A person is only saved when the Holy Spirit comes to take residence in the person's heart. Therefore they are born of God, but not against their will. They must receive.
Similar threads
