That verse is NOT about saving faith as I already showed you from Scripture. Read and study Romans 10 to understand how saving is generated, not given as a gift.
Calvinism is a Cult
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I have read the whole book of Romans, and nowhere does it teach works righteousness. If ever there was a man who could claim such a thing, it would be Paul, and he explains this. And even if you are correct [which I do not believe you are, but still], that still leaves the other verses unaccounted for; they suggest that you might want to rethink your theology, as it is based not on Scripture, but warped Scripture.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
That should be "saving faith". Saving faith is generated through the preaching of the Gospel according to the NT. That is why the propagation of the Gospel is imperative. See Romans 10.
Preaching is just the tool. God generates the actual faith. Otherwise, it is works righteousness. [believing that a pastor's work saves you rather than the work of God.]
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
We are definitely saved by grace...but there are too many verses that say that faith is part of the equation for me to believe otherwise.
Yes, God generates the faith; but not apart from the preaching of His word. Romans 10:17 is clear on that.
Ok! We are saved by grace. And what is this 'grace' that is spoken of? What is this gift? It is the gift of faith. It is God graciously changing us from opposing Him, to loving Him. From hating Him to loving Him. And it is this change of heart that allows us to have faith.
I agree! Apart from the Word of God, [in any facet, be it reading or preaching] there is no salvation. That is correct.
But God is the one that gives us ears to hear; which is why some respond to the Gospel and others do not. Why some read the Scriptures and are healed from their sinfulness and others just scoff and toss it out.
We'll let the apostle Paul explain:
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! (Rom 10:14,15)
1 THESSALONIANS 1
5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.
8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.
9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
So according to Scripture the Gospel becomes the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16) because the Holy Spirit accompanies the preaching of the true Gospel, and it generates faith while the Spirit convicts and convinces (John 16:7-11): So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Rom 10:17) Thus the Gospel becomes the *seed* of the New Birth (1 Peter 1:23-25).
Now, I think we may be getting somewhere. God sends His merciful "rain" to soften the hard ground of our hearts to allow the "seed" of His word to take root. The Father calls and softens but we respond (or not) to the truth in His word, by the power of His Spirit, who "leads to all truth"--the truth of His Son who IS "the way, the truth and the life." The only part we play is to respond but I do not think that is inevitable nor do I think the choice is not ours. Our chosen response is NOT a work--it just is. If I choose to eat roast beef over chicken, is that a work? As for being part of the elect, chosen before the world began, God is the one who chooses us based on our response to Him. Since He knows all things, and He exists apart from time, He knows which of us will respond in faith.
What I have a problem with is the Calvinist idea that we have no choice--in other words, "irresistible grace". I don't think we can know that it is "irresistible" can we? There are plenty of Scriptures which indicate that "you would not" as Jesus said. Calvinists shrug their shoulders and say, "I guess he/she just wasn't a part of the Elect." That seems much too facile an answer to the many passages of Scripture which must be harmonized--and I believe they can be when we hold an Irenic attitude toward each other.
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Yet, we have access by faith into this grace (Romans 5:2). So we cannot have this grace apart from faith. How then can faith be the result of this grace? Faith must precede grace by definition of what the scripture teaches. Grace given cannot = the gift of faith; since faith is needed to obtain it.
I draw the line when God is accused of causing the scoffer to scoff and toss out the truth of the word of the Lord. Why would He do so? For He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
Grace of the Holy Spirit is not "irresistible" since it can be resisted...
Act 7:51, Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
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Ok what is the difference between the two ? Also what separates them . I take it one proceeds the other . How ? Then my last question is why when two people are presented the Gospel one is saved and the other is not ?
Blessings
Bill
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
I'm aware of these Scriptures and what they mean. I'm trying to get you to define your phrase "generates faith."
Will you define your phrase?
It sounds like something being mustered up that already exists, that is, faith in the person, certain persons, is being mustered up externally.
Surely you can define your terminology concisely.
It is the choice that they make (of course, I say this at the risk of all of us going in circles again).
Consider the analogy, that there is a room we call grace...and that there is a key to the room that is normally located inside the room.
Now when we encounter Jesus, He says, Ask, and it will be given you. So then, if we ask Him for the key to the door, He will go into the room we call grace and obtain the key for us. By that key we have access through the door into the room we call grace.
Of course, it should be clear that the door is Jesus Himself; but we need to leave that out of this analogy for it to work.
But it should be clear that when we put the key in the keyhole the door will open.
This means that we can stare at Jesus all day long but if we do not place our faith and trust in Him we will never obtain access into grace. The key represents our faith...when we apply our faith to the door (Jesus) we find access to the room called grace.
Therefore, believing in Jesus is essential for salvation.
That I have to even make that statement in contradiction to the teaching of Calvinism astounds me: because I consider it to be very basic to Christian understanding; and the fact that Calvinism teaches against this concept by implication, to me, makes it un-Christian.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
So, you turned a key, in a lock, in a door, who is Jesus (but we cannot say that so your analogy works) and your effort in turning a key, in a lock, in a door, that is Jesus, but isn't, and Jesus finally says "Attaboy!!!!" and rewards you with eternal life. Gotcha!
Where's the dog? I want to teach her to shake again so I can give her a milkbone. At least she's smart enough to see that's a reward, not a gift.
I understand the idea of circles that is why I stated this before that I will not trouble you any further concerning this discussion.
Not that I ignore you or what you post I don’t do that .
I have never sought out your agreement only clarity.
If your looking for my view sadly it’s not coming. I was addressing enoch111 , he was quoted in my post .
If you want to talk about something else Cool .
Blessings
Bill
So we were told that Romans 12:3 supports the Calvinist belief that saving faith is a gift of God. But the context clearly shows us that that is a misapplication of the Scripture.
ROMANS 12
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;...
So there are two primary thoughts presented here: (1) your reasonable service and (2) the exercise of spiritual gifts ACCORDING TO THE MEASURE OR PROPORTION OF FAITH as an expression of that service. Scripture tells us that there is a spiritual gift of faith given to some Christians (1 Cor 12:9), as well as faith being a fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22). And that is what is in view in this context.
Since all of the above was addressed to Christians who had already exercised saving faith and received the gift of the Holy Spirit, no one should take this out of context and tell us that God gives the gift of faith to sinners! That is an abuse of Scripture.
On the other hand here is an example of saving faith: So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days. And many more believed because of his own word; And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world. (John 4:40-42)
When we go through the Gospels, we find that saving faith is primarily believing that Jesus of Nazareth is indeed (1) the Son of God, (2) the Christ, and (3) the Savior of the world. But there is more to the Gospel -- that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day for our justification (according to the Scriptures).
So Philip was in a position to share all of this with the Ethiopian eunuch, when he "preached unto him Jesus" through Isaiah 53. He must have included everything that Peter preached on the day of Pentecost regarding the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, that sins would be remitted upon repentance, that repentance would result in the giving of the gift of the Holy Ghost, and that water baptism was a command of Christ.
So after the eunuch requested baptism this is what we read (Acts 8):
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. [this verse was deliberately omitted from the modern versions] 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Now what Philip said to the Ethiopian is exactly what Paul said in Romans 10, which brings us back to how faith is generated through the Gospel (while being convicted by the Holy Spirit who works on hearts and minds):
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth...
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved...
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Now if you reject these plain Scriptures, and refuse to believe that this is how saving faith comes about, then that means you do not believe God and Christ, no matter what you profess.
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