Calvinism is a Cult

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CoreIssue

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The only thing Arminians can agree on 100% of the time:The Bible is like our own personal belief buffet; "I like this verse, and this verse and this verse....oh, God's Sovereignty? Hate that.... Election, no.... Oh, I like this verse though!"

Calvinists do not worry about what a verse says, they either claim it says something they want or invent a new one.
 

Laish

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So we were told that Romans 12:3 supports the Calvinist belief that saving faith is a gift of God. But the context clearly shows us that that is a misapplication of the Scripture.

ROMANS 12
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;...


So there are two primary thoughts presented here: (1) your reasonable service and (2) the exercise of spiritual gifts ACCORDING TO THE MEASURE OR PROPORTION OF FAITH as an expression of that service. Scripture tells us that there is a spiritual gift of faith given to some Christians (1 Cor 12:9), as well as faith being a fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22). And that is what is in view in this context.

Since all of the above was addressed to Christians who had already exercised saving faith and received the gift of the Holy Spirit, no one should take this out of context and tell us that God gives the gift of faith to sinners! That is an abuse of Scripture.

On the other hand here is an example of saving faith: So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days. And many more believed because of his own word; And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world. (John 4:40-42)

When we go through the Gospels, we find that saving faith is primarily believing that Jesus of Nazareth is indeed (1) the Son of God, (2) the Christ, and (3) the Savior of the world. But there is more to the Gospel -- that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day for our justification (according to the Scriptures).

So Philip was in a position to share all of this with the Ethiopian eunuch, when he "preached unto him Jesus" through Isaiah 53. He must have included everything that Peter preached on the day of Pentecost regarding the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, that sins would be remitted upon repentance, that repentance would result in the giving of the gift of the Holy Ghost, and that water baptism was a command of Christ.

So after the eunuch requested baptism this is what we read (Acts 8):
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. [this verse was deliberately omitted from the modern versions] 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Now what Philip said to the Ethiopian is exactly what Paul said in Romans 10, which brings us back to how faith is generated through the Gospel (while being convicted by the Holy Spirit who works on hearts and minds):

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth...
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved...
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Now if you reject these plain Scriptures, and refuse to believe that this is how saving faith comes about, then that means you do not believe God and Christ, no matter what you profess.
Ok I am working on digesting what you posted . I do see a connection to gifts and office concerning the amount or measure of faith yet no marks distinguishing one from the faith that saves and one that equips us to preach the gospel. Where is that shown .
Also can you address why two people hearing the same Gospel message have different reactions . What sets the two apart ?
FYI right now I am not looking for agreement . I am just looking for some clarity.
Blessings
Bill
 
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justbyfaith

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So, you turned a key, in a lock, in a door, who is Jesus (but we cannot say that so your analogy works) and your effort in turning a key, in a lock, in a door, that is Jesus, but isn't, and Jesus finally says "Attaboy!!!!" and rewards you with eternal life. Gotcha!

Where's the dog? I want to teach her to shake again so I can give her a milkbone. At least she's smart enough to see that's a reward, not a gift.
Mocking the issue doesn't make it any less biblical.
 

Preacher4Truth

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Now if you reject these plain Scriptures, and refuse to believe that this is how saving faith comes about, then that means you do not believe God and Christ, no matter what you profess.

Not quite. It's not Scripture we reject, it's your spin on it. Scripture concisely states faith is God's gift. What you call "saving" faith.
 
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Preacher4Truth

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Ok I am working on digesting what you posted . I do see a connection to gifts and office concerning the amount or measure of faith yet no marks distinguishing one from the faith that saves and one that equips us to preach the gospel. Where is that shown .
Also can you address why two people hearing the same Gospel message have different reactions . What sets the two apart ?
FYI right now I am not looking for agreement . I am just looking for some clarity.
Blessings
Bill
Yes, What he is doing, to avoid the fact that faith is God's gift, is drawing a false dichotomy as if there are two faiths.
 
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Preacher4Truth

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Mocking the issue doesn't make it any less biblical.
It's completely unbiblical. That's a fact.

Tell you what, as soon as you have integrity in handling the word correctly; 2 Timothy 2:15, then you'll see your errors. This comes only from God. I was where you are in beliefs years ago. For the record I didn't take texts out of context as you do. I hope and pray you will discontinue this with God's word.
 
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Mjh29

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We are definitely saved by grace

Yes, God generates the faith; but not apart from the preaching of His word. Romans 10:17 is clear on that.

Faith must precede grace by definition of what the scripture teaches. Grace given cannot = the gift of faith; since faith is needed to obtain it.

This is where it gets confusing; which is it? You tell me in one breath that

1.) We are saved by grace
2.) God generated the faith
[both of which are TRUE!]

and then you go on telling me how WE generate the faith and how it is not by grace!
WHAT.gif

This makes no sense, brother; it cannot be both! Either we generate our own faith apart from the grace of God, or "by grace are we saved through faith."

I draw the line when God is accused of causing the scoffer to scoff and toss out the truth of the word of the Lord.

I agree. The fallen will and nature of man is what causes the scoffer to scoff. I never claimed God made the scoffer scoff; I claimed it is all God who brought this sinner to Christ. I give God credit for the good, and man credit for the bad. Because God is good, and from Him all good things come, and man is bad, from whose heart is only evil continually.

Grace of the Holy Spirit is not "irresistible" since it can be resisted...

I feel like I already answered this with Scripture.... Oh wait.... I did. Why do we keep using the same out of context verses, when I and other have shown you that, no matter how many times you quote them, they just do not say what you are trying to make them say!
Act 7:51, Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

There are 2 different 'calls' expressed in the Scriptures:
1.) The general call -- given to all men; All men naturally reject this call [The preaching of the word apart from the illumination of the Spirit, the reading of the word apart from the illumination of the Spirit]
2.) The special call -- the call of the Spirit to the chosen of God [who, btw, will far outweigh those who are not. This is not a special little club. See the body of Christ? The MASSIVE body of Christ? Yeah.... those are the called.]
This calling cannot be resisted, for "who can resist the power of God?"

Acts 7:51 clearly teaches why grace must be irresistible. While it is true that those in Acts 7:51 resisted the Holy Spirit, the text clearly states that the people in question had "uncircumcised" hearts and ears. Circumcised in the Old Testament is language used for the regenerate (Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:26). In addition, these Acts 7:51 uncircumcised individuals are described as "stiff-necked." This is their natural state. So, Acts 7:51 actually confirms the absolute necessity of irresistible grace, as there is no other way such people could ever be regenerated.

Sinners always resist the outward call of the gospel. God must first open a person's heart with his effectual call before they come to Christ (John 6:44 , John 6:65). Acts 16:14 states, "One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul" (cf. Luke 24:45 ; Acts 26:18).
Calvinism and Acts 7:51?
 

Preacher4Truth

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@justbyfaith
Are you saying that those of us who do not believe your take on Romans 5:2, which is out of context in its usage, are spiritually blind, and lost? You've alluded to this blindness in your past posts and implied lostness thereby.

Please clarify.
 
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Lady Crosstalk

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There are 2 different 'calls' expressed in the Scriptures:
1.) The general call -- given to all men; All men naturally reject this call [The preaching of the word apart from the illumination of the Spirit, the reading of the word apart from the illumination of the Spirit]
2.) The special call -- the call of the Spirit to the chosen of God [who, btw, will far outweigh those who are not. This is not a special little club. See the body of Christ? The MASSIVE body of Christ? Yeah.... those are the called.]
This calling cannot be resisted, for "who can resist the power of God?"

I see no warrant in Scripture for dividing the call of God into a "general call" and a "special call".


Acts 7:51 clearly teaches why grace must be irresistible. While it is true that those in Acts 7:51 resisted the Holy Spirit, the text clearly states that the people in question had "uncircumcised" hearts and ears. Circumcised in the Old Testament is language used for the regenerate (Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:26).
No, "uncircumcised" referred to the heathen whether in Egypt or Canaan. "Circumcised" referred to those who were called and chosen by God--the "elect" (that is what "chosen" means) who were obedient to God's commands--they were not hypocrites.

Stephen is accusing the Jews who are threatening him of being heathen at heart--refusing to listen to the prophets and even persecuting them, killing the prophets who predicted the coming of the Messiah and actually daring to kill the Messiah, Himself! As a people, they were called, chosen and saved out of bondage, yet the majority of them STILL refused to listen. (see Acts 7:39).

In addition, these Acts 7:51 uncircumcised individuals are described as "stiff-necked." This is their natural state.
Why would Stephen scold them if their fallen nature forced them to be that way? It is clear from the pouring out of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2, that some of the "devout" Jews (see Acts 2:5) responded, in faith, to the call of God and Peter's proclamation (Acts 2:36). After the gospel "seed" had penetrated their hearts, they asked what they should DO. Peter's reply was: 1) Repent of their sins and turn to God 2) Be baptized in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of their sins and 3) receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Peter further notes that this promised gift is to them, their children and even to the Gentiles--to all who had been called by God. While it is apparent that God the Father initiates the call and convicts by His Spirit, the response of faith--that of believing and trusting in God--comes from the believer. Otherwise, why commend Abraham who was considered to be righteous because he believed God?

So, Acts 7:51 actually confirms the absolute necessity of irresistible grace, as there is no other way such people could ever be regenerated.

Since they subsequently stoned Stephen, they probably never were regenerated. We know that Saul/Paul, who was standing and watching, was regenerated through a powerful series of events but he was actually a devout Jew who did not understand, until God opened his eyes and ears. His heart was already set to obey God (circumcised) as a devout Jew.

Not sure where this takes us in the discussion, but I am still unconvinced of "irresistible grace".
 
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Lady Crosstalk

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"One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul" (cf. Luke 24:45

Actually, most, if not all translations say that the Lord opened her MIND to understand the Scriptures. There is a difference between mind and heart in ancient thought. Otherwise why did the Lord make the distinction between them? "You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and all your mind." (Matthew 22:37)

It is apparent that what they called the "heart" is the seat of faith, whereas the "mind" is the seat of knowledge and understanding. Soul often referred to will or the point where mind, will and heart meet.
 
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Preacher4Truth

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Actually, most, if not all translations say that the Lord opened her MIND to understand the Scriptures.

Sorry, but the above isn't even close to true. Most translations, in fact, nearly all use heart. Why make up your own facts that are readily proven false? Why do you base your beliefs on falsities, even if you have to fabricate them yourself????

There is a difference between mind and heart in ancient thought. Otherwise why did the Lord make the distinction between them? "You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and all your mind." (Matthew 22:37)

It is apparent that what they called the "heart" is the seat of faith, whereas the "mind" is the seat of knowledge and understanding. Soul often referred to will.

Of course, but it is God that opens this, not free will, decisions or humans. It is kardia, the heart, that God opens; Acts 16:14. This God does to all he elects to salvation.

It is Satan that blinds the minds, noema, 2 Corinthians 4:4.

You're conflating the two in some sort of attempt to discredit something. Probably God's sovereign work.

But I digress, it is very very difficult for you to bow to God and give him all the glory, so you'll attempt a word definition fiasco to get around it.

Unbelievable...
 

Jun2u

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Yet, if you have not made a decision to believe in / receive Christ, you can be certain that you have not been born again. Unless you know you have been saved from the perspective of time (cf. Jhn 1:12, Rev 3:20, Rev 22:17), it is presumption to think that you are one of the elect.[/QUOTE]

As it is written, No one, no, not one, without exception can make a decision for Christ let alone SEEK Him (Romans 3:10-11).

I know without a doubt and confident that I am a child of God as per (Romans 8:16-17).

To get the context of John 1:12, you must continue to verse 13 for there is the crux of the whole matter. That is, who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD. Bold and underlined words are for emphasis.

Does John 1:13 need exegesis? I will if you don’t understand.

The same with Revelation 3:20. Mankind is spiritually dead, sold to sin and to Satan. The person behind the door is dead and a dead person has no power nor the capacity to open that door.

AND, the same also with Revelation 22:17. Those who “hears,” “thirsts” and “whosoever will,” are those who were predestined, elected, chosen, and named to salvation, which also was drawn by the Father and given to Jesus from before the foundation of the world (John 6:44;37).

The verses you quoted above are also the beliefs of many who posts in these forums. “Free will” is NEVER taught in Scripture. It is a faulty understanding. God is the prime mover of man’s salvation. Never man! Read Ezekiel 36:24-38.

To God Be The Glory
 

justbyfaith

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This is where it gets confusing; which is it? You tell me in one breath that

1.) We are saved by grace
2.) God generated the faith
[both of which are TRUE!]

and then you go on telling me how WE generate the faith and how it is not by grace!
6269_47c330544034a776025514499fa6a3c2.gif


This makes no sense, brother; it cannot be both! Either we generate our own faith apart from the grace of God, or "by grace are we saved through faith."

Faith must precede grace according to Romans 5:2, and, if you will receive it, Ephesians 2:8-9.

I never claimed God made the scoffer scoff; I claimed it is all God who brought this sinner to Christ. I give God credit for the good, and man credit for the bad.

I know that you never claimed it, as that would be detrimental to your philosophy to admit that this is what it teaches. But it is definitely implied by your philosophy.

for "who can resist the power of God?"

Scripture?
 

justbyfaith

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@Jun2u,

As it is written, No one, no, not one, without exception can make a decision for Christ let alone SEEKHim (Romans 3:10-11).

I know without a doubt and confident that I am a child of God as per (Romans 8:16-17).

To get the context of John 1:12, you must continue to verse 13 for there is the crux of the whole matter. That is, who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD. Bold and underlined words are for emphasis.

Does John 1:13 need exegesis? I will if you don’t understand.

The same with Revelation 3:20. Mankind is spiritually dead, sold to sin and to Satan. The person behind the door is dead and a dead person has no power nor the capacity to open that door.

AND, the same also with Revelation 22:17. Those who “hears,” “thirsts” and “whosoever will,” are those who were predestined, elected, chosen, and named to salvation, which also was drawn by the Father and given to Jesus from before the foundation of the world (John 6:44;37).

The verses you quoted above are also the beliefs of many who posts in these forums. “Free will” is NEVER taught in Scripture. It is a faulty understanding. God is the prime mover of man’s salvation. Never man! Read Ezekiel 36:24-38.

To God Be The Glory

Regardless of your arguments against it, Jesus said, Ye must be born again.

How is a man born again if not through placing his faith in Jesus Christ and what was done for him on the Cross?

(I am sincerely asking you this question; please answer this according to your theology)
 
D

Dave L

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@justbyfaith Your biggest mistake is the same the Catholics make. You think flesh faith, the kind you have when buying a car, also saves people. But this is not biblical faith. It is in fact sinful because the flesh cannot have a pure motive in anything it does, including the reason for choosing what it thinks is salvation. Nor can you discern the true Christ by the flesh. This is evident in your rejection of the true Christ by preferring the false Christ of "Oneness Pentecostalism".

Salvation is by grace alone. That is, Christ turns those who cannot believe and repent into believers who then want to repent. This is through the New Birth which creates genuine faith and becomes the Baptism with the Holy Spirit during repentance.
 

Preacher4Truth

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@Jun2u,



Regardless of your arguments against it, Jesus said, Ye must be born again.

How is a man born again if not through placing his faith in Jesus Christ and what was done for him on the Cross?

(I am sincerely asking you this question; please answer this according to your theology)
He never stated anything close to your asinine conclusion. I see the problem, not only can you not comprehend Scripture, you cannot even comprehend simple, plain dialog.
 
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Mjh29

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Faith must precede grace according to Romans 5:2, and, if you will receive it, Ephesians 2:8-9.

1.) This is based of a misuse of Romans 5
2.) Even so, you are saying that faith must preceed grace, and if you accept grace you are saved by grace through faith? This makes absolutely zero sense. Please, try reading this with a straight face. This belief has officially left reality. It doesn't even hold any logical ground, much less Scriptural. Try reading the Romans 5:1 and seeing to whom Paul is speaking. Those who are already saved. The 'grace' which we have access to is not SAVING grace, but rather the multitude of GRACES that are bestowed upon the believers. And, when examined in CONTEXT provides a much, much, MUCH more concise and cohesive view: Salvation is by faith, and faith is a gift of grace; and through this gift of faith, we than have access into the inexhaustible multitude of grace which is poured out upon the people of God.

I know that you never claimed it

Ok, then if you'd please stop acting as though I did, that would be great.

Scripture?

Oh, that would be Romans 9:19, yep. None can resist the power of God.

 

justbyfaith

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2.) Even so, you are saying that faith must preceed grace, and if you accept grace you are saved by grace through faith? This makes absolutely zero sense. Please, try reading this with a straight face. This belief has officially left reality. It doesn't even hold any logical ground, much less Scriptural.

I think that you are still failing to understand what the word through means. This is definitely a lack of reading comprehension on your part.

Oh, that would be Romans 9:19, yep. None can resist the power of God.

I would venture to say, using your own tactics against you (since turnabout is fair play) that this verse is taken out of context.