Calvinism: T = Total Depravity

[Ronald David Bruno]

And if after as well, that explains why they believe 1 John 1:8 to be a Christian.

As this reads, those who say they have no sin, the truth is not in them, meaning they are not Christian.
" If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
I like to turn it around and say the opposite:
If we say we have sin, the truth is in us. But they may not be Christian yet; certainly they are humble and prepared to receive Christ.
Many have received Christ before and after Calvin and have grown in the knowledge of God, produced fruit. I had a great Pastor who never discussed Calvinism at all. Actually most sermons I've ever heard don't. I just heard one because it is the topic.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I like to turn it around and say the opposite:
If we say we have sin, the truth is in us. But they may not be Christian yet; certainly they are humble and prepared to receive Christ.

Did you know the way you worded that is Calvinistic? They believe that you have to be saved first in order to repent. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth. He cannot be IN us until we repent. Acts 2:38. But The Spirit of God draws us from the outside; but I believe He gives all mankind that chance.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

you said something to the order of cooperating with God as He prepares our hearts. that's erroneous also. that which cooperates in your heart is of God because He replaces it with what is in His which is the commandment that He said He would put in our hearts and its in His Heart because Jesus fulfilled it and surly what is in His Heart He seeks to fulfill.

"That which cooperates in your heart is of God"? I am not talking about after you have been saved, I am talking about before you are saved, years, decades, while one is blind. How do we cooperate with His Spirit if we are "totally depraved", unable to listen, see, learn anything spiritual? I don't believe we are. We make decisions to do good or evil. You pulled out a scripture that described man before the flood, who was evil all the time.
Are all non-Christians today evil all the time???

again man doesn't chose God or anything of God, God choses those who He knows will be faithful via His revelation. did you get a blinding light revelation like Paul did, no, its not required for what God requires of you.

We are predestined and called and at the chosen time saved. He enables us to respond, draws us and gradually through life's experiences, persuades us to follow Him. Some need more work than others.

Jesus revealed His risen self to the faithful those He loved, He didn't reveal the same to the world. you want to count yourself good ground sure but you didn't make yourself you didn't make yourself the good ground. the clay doesn't tell the potter what the clay will be. the Lord is seeking His that which He knows are and or will be faithful. hence the concept of the elect. and without the Lord's revelation you would be depraved totally. even if you are good ground you still would be depraved.

I agree for the most part. But you just said it, "without the Lords revelation we would be depraved".
And that is my point. The world has been injectes with His truth dor thousands of years. It has changed the world, soniur oerspective and knkwledge is much clkser to Him than those prior to the flood.

We make decisions to go His way and sometimes we don't even if we are already saved:

Proverbs 2:1-5:
"My son, if you receive my words
and treasure up my commandments with you,
making your ear attentive to wisdom
and inclining your heart to understanding;
yes, if you call out for insight
and raise your voice for understanding,
if you seek it like silver
and search for it as for hidden treasures,
then you will understand the fear of the LORD
and find the knowledge of God

Those are all decisions that we choose to make. The "if queations" simply require us to respond in a certain way. He is not forcing us.
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It’s God’s will for you to repent and believe in Jesus (Acts 3:19)

It’s God’s will for you to tell the truth (Lev. 19:11)

It’s God’s will for you to glorify him (1 Cor. 10:31)

It’s God’s will for you to be sober (Eph. 5:18)

It’s God’s will for you to work hard (Rom. 12:11-17)

These are all God's will, but do we always abide. We need to cooperate.
It has been said thay we make 35,000 decisions everyday. Are they all godly? NO. WE CHOOSE them. He is right there with us, every step if the way, guiding us. A wrong decision, one step ofd the curb into the path of a bus could be your last. Of course if you are in His list, He won't let that happen.
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2 Timothy 3:15-16:
“And how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness."

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Proverbs 1:5:
"Let the wise hear and increase in learning, and the one who understands obtain guidance.”

We must learn, increase in knowledge and cooperate in order to obtain guidance.

Proverbs 11:14:

"Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety."
There is an abundance of counselors like never before.

Proverbs 12:15:
"The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice."

God works through others to teach us. We choose to listen if we are wise.

Proverbs 13:10:
"Where there is strife, there is pride, but wisdom is found in those who take advice."


Proverbs 13:20:
"Whoever walks with the wise becomes wise, but the companion of fools will suffer harm."

Life is filled with choices, we choose good or evil. All things that are good come from God.
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Deuteronomy 30:9-10:
"The Lord your God will make you abundantly prosperous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your womb and in the fruit of your cattle and in the fruit of your ground. For the Lord will again take delight in prospering you, as he took delight in your fathers, when you obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.”

Obedience is a choice. Even before we are born again, we must choose to obey are parents, the law, choose to do the right thing.
But of course, God chose us first!
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Galatians 6:7-8:
"Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.”

More choices.
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Hebrews 11:25:
"Choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin."
Ouch!
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Proverbs 3:5-6:
"Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths."
We are constantly reminded and encouraged to focus on God, walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh. We are constantly you being supervised, yet we stumble and fall willfully choosing to go off the path.
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Matthew 6:33:
"But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you."
Decisions, decisions ... "but I need a house and a car and a wife now!"
Patience, be anxious for nothing, first follow Me.
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John 8:12:
"Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, 'I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.'"
The offer goes out to all, but many reject it.
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Isaiah 26:3:
"You keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on you, because he trusts in you.”
Even those who claim to have faith are nit at peace. Why? Focus in Him and things above.

God chose us first, He prepares our path that obviously requires our cooperation. We make thousands of choices that lead us closer to Him. He does not force all those moves and so for Some, they have to learn the hard way and it takes a lifetime.

 

[DPMartin]

"
I agree for the most part. But you just said it, "without the Lords revelation we would be depraved".
And that is my point. The world has been injectes with His truth dor thousands of years. It has changed the world, soniur oerspective and knkwledge is much clkser to Him than those prior to the flood.

We make decisions to go His way and sometimes we don't even if we are already saved:

the school of hard knocks doesn't count as your decision, the Lord can make you go whatever way He wants, once born again you are His to do as He pleases, which is true of the whole of creation but, He's is not a Father from a distance:

Joh_10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Joh_14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

if one is born again received the Life of Christ, then this is the case.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I give God all the credit for my salvation. Jesus did the work. He predestined us to be saved. He draws us to Himself through a series of events and people that come into our lives on the outside and inwardly as well, that voice in our minds that guides us. He cleanses us spiritually. We become new creatures in Christ. Faith is a gift. We choose to receive it or not. Calvin says it is irresistible. Well, I feel He persuaded me and I couldn't resist. Though if He draws all men to Himself and some don't come, then obviously it is not irresistible, some resist it and reject it and go their own way. This is what they are accused of, this is their major sin, rejecting Christ - out of all sins. It is a decision that they made and God knew all along, in eternity past. Nevertheless, they chose to go their own way. To be fair, He calls them, desires no one to perish, but they do. If it was forced, then why not all, why aren't all saved, if it is His will? Because it is their will. This is what they are judged by, willfully sinning. We have been given that choice. We had to be given that choice to do good or evil, to learn about what good is. We are not automatons, puppets. Our dual nature wars against each other, the spirit against the flesh and vs. versa. God is Sovereign.

 

[farouk]

@CharismaticLady, I think, perhaps, you don’t have any poll results because its not the sort of “yes/no” question one can just tick. The two options given are ‘we are totally depraved before being born again, but not after’ and ‘we are totally depraved whether being born again or not’.
Consider….how do we define “total depravity”? Is it sin? In which case, we must all tick the latter one. Except, any Christian who can read their bibles and has (one can hope) the sort of walk that it teaches, will know that after being born again, we have the power and expectation to put sins to death. Which means we CAN grow in ‘not being depraved’…but if depravity is still defined as ‘sin’, no one will fully leave it behind in this life. Which means, while we sort of want to select the first result, we can’t, really.
You see how it starts to get a little complicated and therefore people…even people who DO believe in Calvinism and the T…just can’t answer that particular question.
Hope that helps a little….

@Naomi25 I find that reading a passage such as John 6 can help lay a foundation to issues of Divine sovereignty and human responsibility.

 

[Corlove13]

Are there no Calvinists that know what they believe? Already have 16 views and not one vote.

How do know if you are calvinist?

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 I find that reading a passage such as John 6 can help lay a foundation to issues of Divine sovereignty and human responsibility.

Personally, I love Ephesians and Romans. So good! John is fabulous too, so much weight.

 

[farouk]

Personally, I love Ephesians and Romans. So good! John is fabulous too, so much weight.

@Naomi25 Indeed so...

 

[farouk]

How do know if you are calvinist?

@Corlove13 I guess the label doesn't matter...

 

[CharismaticLady]

How do know if you are calvinist?

Huh?

 

[michaelvpardo]

I've never read Calvin but is a doctrine of total depravity even necessary when scripture calls us all creatures of wrath before we receive Christ?
The purpose of "characterization " is discrimination through bias and preconception, not the way of truth. As long as you cling to one teacher or another rather than to the teaching of the Holy Spirit, you remain carnal in your thinking.
10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 1 Corinthians 1:10-13
3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? 1 Corinthians 3:3-4
Almost 2000 years later and nothing has changed except that the body of Christ has been divided thousands of times by "theologians " with "a better idea."
Theology doesn't save, Jesus does. I'd prefer a poor theology and a relationship with God through christ, than a rich theology devoid of His Spirit. Ignorance isn't really bliss, but "in much wisdom is much grief, And he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18

 

[michaelvpardo]

How do know if you are calvinist?

You're a calvinist if you believe Calvin's commentaries and identify with him. However, I'm pretty sure that John Calvin only thought of himself as a Christian and identified with Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

From the 1689 confession of faith:
Chapter 6: Of the Fall of Man, Of Sin, And of the Punishment Thereof
1._____ Although God created man upright and perfect, and gave him a righteous law, which had been unto life had he kept it, and threatened death upon the breach thereof, yet he did not long abide in this honour; Satan using the subtlety of the serpent to subdue Eve, then by her seducing Adam, who, without any compulsion, did willfully transgress the law of their creation, and the command given unto them, in eating the forbidden fruit, which God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory.
( Genesis 2:16, 17; Genesis 3:12,13; 2 Corinthians 11:3 )
2._____ Our first parents, by this sin, fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and we in them whereby death came upon all: all becoming dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.
( Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12, etc; Titus 1:15; Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-19 )

3._____ They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, the guilt of the sin was imputed, and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation, being now conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subjects of death, and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus set them free.
( Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 45, 49; Psalms 51:5; Job 14:4; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 6:20 Romans 5:12; Hebrews 2:14, 15; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 )

4._____ From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.
( Romans 8:7; Colossians 1:21; James 1:14, 15; Matthew 15:19 )

5._____ The corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be through Christ pardoned and mortified, yet both itself, and the first motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.
( Romans 7:18,23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8; Romans 7:23-25; Galatians 5:17 )

 

[Iconoclast]

also 1689
Chapter 9: Of Free Will
1._____ God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil.
( Matthew 17:12; James 1:14; Deuteronomy 30:19 )
2._____ Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good and well-pleasing to God, but yet was unstable, so that he might fall from it.
( Ecclesiastes 7:29; Genesis 3:6 )

3._____ Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
( Romans 5:6; Romans 8:7; Ephesians 2:1, 5; Titus 3:3-5; John 6:44 )

4._____ When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and by his grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that by reason of his remaining corruptions, he doth not perfectly, nor only will, that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.
( Colossians 1:13; John 8:36; Philippians 2:13; Romans 7:15, 18, 19, 21, 23 )

5._____ This will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone in the state of glory only.
( Ephesians 4:13 )
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