Calvinism: T = Total Depravity

[CharismaticLady]

I find that not all Calvinists agree on T = Total Depravity. If you are a Calvinist, please take the poll. Arminians and Catholics please do not take poll.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Are there no Calvinists that know what they believe? Already have 16 views and not one vote.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Are there no Calvinists that know what they believe? Already have 16 views and not one vote.

I am not a Calvinist.
I don't think I fully understand what Calvin meant by total depravity.
To me, the phrase suggests that we are not only incapable of saving ourselves, coming to God on our own and we are born spiritually dead (which would be true). But it also implies we are empty vessels, void of anything of value, goodwill, thoughts or actions. We would also be void of talents, incapable of creating something artistic, musical, architectural, scientific achievements, technology, medical cures. We could never love or simply care for people. " That would be total depravity, again on my definition.
"Can you help me sir?" "No, sorry, I'm totally depraved and therefore incapable ... actually I don't even know what help is or what good I can do ... what is good by the way? " "Well good would be helping me right now, please." "I don't want to. I just don't feel any desire to do good ... maybe you should ask someone who is not totally depraved?"

If what he meant was spiritual depravity/ blindness, incapable of coming to God, saving ourselves, then yes, I agree.
Just for starters, we are pretty well equipped. He made us in His image. We have a rational mind, emotions, volition, talents and creative abilities. We have incredible bodies. We also have His truth that has permeated throughout the world
We know good and evil and have this moral code. We are wonderfully made - far from depraved.
Christ changed the world. Those who are blind to Him benefit from His principles and live by them whether they know it or not.
Still, we are by nature rebellious towards God, until His Grace, Mercy, Love, Forgiveness and Faith shine down upon us.
Can you explain what Calvin meant exacly

 

[Pathfinder7]

I am not a Calvinist.
I don't think I fully understand what Calvin meant by total depravity.
To me, the phrase suggests that we are not only incapable of saving ourselves, coming to God on our own and we are born spiritually dead (which would be true). But it also implies we are empty vessels, void of anything of value, goodwill, thoughts or actions. We would also be void of talents, incapable of creating something artistic, musical, architectural, scientific achievements, technology, medical cures. We could never love or simply care for people. " That would be total depravity, again on my definition.
"Can you help me sir?" "No, sorry, I'm totally depraved and therefore incapable ... actually I don't even know what help is or what good I can do ... what is good by the way? " "Well good would be helping me right now, please." "I don't want to. I just don't feel any desire to do good ... maybe you should ask someone who is not totally depraved?"

If what he meant was spiritual depravity/ blindness, incapable of coming to God, saving ourselves, then yes, I agree.
Just for starters, we are pretty well equipped. He made us in His image. We have a rational mind, emotions, volition, talents and creative abilities. We have incredible bodies. We also have His truth that has permeated throughout the world
We know good and evil and have this moral code. We are wonderfully made - far from depraved.
Christ changed the world. Those who are blind to Him benefit from His principles and live by them whether they know it or not.
Still, we are by nature rebellious towards God, until His Grace, Mercy, Love, Forgiveness and Faith shine down upon us.
Can you explain what Calvin meant exacly

If you are interested in learning..about 'total depravity' in more detail,
- You can get/read the book..
--
' The Total Depravity of Man'
A.W. Pink
--
It is available..from Kindle e book.

 

[MatthewG]

I believe that people are able to each God and are not totally depraved. Because Jesus Christ paid for the sins of all mankind; and God raised the Lord Jesus Christ again after death. Breaking the barrier that once was and is now freely given by choice of having faith in God.

It’s a choice. Not everyone has faith.

 

[Naomi25]

@CharismaticLady, I think, perhaps, you don’t have any poll results because its not the sort of “yes/no” question one can just tick. The two options given are ‘we are totally depraved before being born again, but not after’ and ‘we are totally depraved whether being born again or not’.
Consider….how do we define “total depravity”? Is it sin? In which case, we must all tick the latter one. Except, any Christian who can read their bibles and has (one can hope) the sort of walk that it teaches, will know that after being born again, we have the power and expectation to put sins to death. Which means we CAN grow in ‘not being depraved’…but if depravity is still defined as ‘sin’, no one will fully leave it behind in this life. Which means, while we sort of want to select the first result, we can’t, really.
You see how it starts to get a little complicated and therefore people…even people who DO believe in Calvinism and the T…just can’t answer that particular question.
Hope that helps a little….

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

If you are interested in learning..about 'total depravity' in more detail,
- You can get/read the book..
--
' The Total Depravity of Man'
A.W. Pink
--
It is available..from Kindle e book.

Thanks. Just listened to RC Sproul teaching on it. Understand what Calvin was saying, still think the phrase totally depraved went too far.

 

[DPMartin]

total depravity means what it says total. as in all or the sum of.

its a simple concept that agrees with Jesus in that only God is good. therefore man isn't nor nothing of man is good. if any son of man can be called good it would be Jesus and He's the one telling you no, only God is. also there's observation by God after the flood:

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.


so that is what God thinks and knows of man. But the Almighty knows that He Himself is good and His Judgements are good for His creation.

God gave man His place in the earth to execute God's Judgement in the earth, but man executes man's own judgement, not good. we are essentially God's place in the earth (note the inner dwelling of the Holy Spirit, God's presence)

so again if one is honest with one's self, one will realize there is no good in them other than what is of God, so without the Lord its total depravity. and all the prophets and the apostles agree that man's nature is to do what is evil in God's sight.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

That was back then. Because of God's principles, His love and grace permeating throughout the world for thousands of years, man has been affected and the world has been changed to some degree. Goodness has rubbed off onto us in many ways. Certainly without God, life is vanity of vanities and chasing after the wind. Without God's goodness, life would be totally dark. But the world has experienced good, given to us by God, we have a history of good and evil.
We have the knowledge of good and evil. Through life's experiences, we learn to choose good over evil - even the unregenerate soul does.
We see virtues in men, who perform good deeds.
What would you say if I told you that during the Great Depression obviously crime increased, but not in a ceratin community in a large city? What would you say about this community? Would you think it was a Christian community? Must be regenate Christians, couldn't be any other part of society who are "totally depraved". It was Chinatown in San Francisco. Buddhists evidently aren't totally evil. They have learned to live in harmony, with respect, honor, good work ethics and peacefully. They lractice self control over emotions, deprivation, they have learned about good and evil and have willingly chosen good. They hot the horizontal thing down, just need to get the vertical - with God.

Back before the flood, they didn't have much history of the knowledge of good..it was lawless and raw. But there were exceptions. Enoch walked with God, and God found favor in Noah and his family. Were they totally depraved? They were spiritually dead, yet they responded to God, practiced good and were obedient, they cooperated with their radically corrupted souls.
There is no argument that we are born spiritually dead and in need God's grace, His gift of faith ... a Savior. Because of our fallen, sinful nature, we can not save ourselves. Our nature is defective, we start out that way and then what happens? Our parents and civilized society teach us right from wrong. We learn about morality, God's laws, government laws, justice and after maturing, we become persuaded that it is better to try to live an honest life and to do good.

We are not utterly depraved to the extent that there is no good at all in us. If people now were all totally depraved, we would not do any good ever and when God would try to prepare our hearts - we just would not conform to His plan and cooperate.
I'll agree that we are not capable of saving ourselves; but if we were totally depraved, how could we cooperate with God's grace in preparing our hearts before He transforms us? He guides our inner thoughts, tells us, "You ought to go this way, do that, help this person, accept this invitation to church, etc." If we were evil all the time, we would not choose to go His way, every choice would be the wrong one - but it is not that way. We do choose willingly to go the right way, do the right things at times. And then we get this inner voice that we resist and If not it sometimes and realize it was a mistake.
we cooperate with God when He is preparing our hearts. Couldn't do that if we were totally depraved. So as Rc Sproul puts it in a more palatable phrase instead of total depravity, it's called "Radical Corruption."
He speaks of this "vestigual remnant of righteousness". We aren't born with it, we learn it and conform to it. It is not the righteousness that is imputed to is when we are born again, but has elements if this purity.
Westminster Confession of Faith claims that due to the Fall of Man into the state of sin, man has wholly lost his will and ability to do anything spiritually good to save himself. He is not able to convert himself or even prepare himself (assist God in any way) in the process leading got to salvation.
How does man cooperate with God's preparing him if He is not able or willing to cooperate with the process of sanctification.
If we cannot do anything spiritually beneficial for ourselves and can't agree with God (prior to our transformation and this may include decades of working on us ), then how do we make willful choices to conform to His will when He draws us?
So then, if we cannot do anything good, He would have to force our will every step of the way. I don't think He does that. Why? Because we would be doing everything right, after His will _ all the time. Even after we are born again and God lives in us, we still fail to do His will all the time.
Calvinists claim is that man has lost the ability and will to make a decision to Go with God. We cannot come to Him unless He draws us, but the scripture says He draws all men to Himself. Obviously some continue to resist that grace. I resisted and rebelled against it for 25 years and then I was finally persuaded. That is another definition of God's gift of faith, " God's persuasion. He worked on me for decades and along the way, this defective and radically corrupted soul agredd with God's goodness. He taught it to me. So in essence, I made numerous decisions to go His way _ in His preparation _ until that final moment when He supernaturally transformed my spirit.
They say the blindness is like a veil that God lifts. He must lift it over time, allowing a little more light to get through until we are convinced.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Can you explain what Calvin meant exacly

Who me? I'm the one asking! LOL

 

[CharismaticLady]

total depravity means what it says total. as in all or the sum of.

its a simple concept that agrees with Jesus in that only God is good. therefore man isn't nor nothing of man is good. if any son of man can be called good it would be Jesus and He's the one telling you no, only God is. also there's observation by God after the flood:

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.


so that is what God thinks and knows of man. But the Almighty knows that He Himself is good and His Judgements are good for His creation.

God gave man His place in the earth to execute God's Judgement in the earth, but man executes man's own judgement, not good. we are essentially God's place in the earth (note the inner dwelling of the Holy Spirit, God's presence)

so again if one is honest with one's self, one will realize there is no good in them other than what is of God, so without the Lord its total depravity. and all the prophets and the apostles agree that man's nature is to do what is evil in God's sight.

The question I have is in the poll. Can you pick one please if you are Calvinist? This is the last of the seven days of the poll and no Calvinist seems to know what they believe.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Who me? I'm the one asking! LOL

You said you found (looked into, came across or researched) that mot all Calvinists agree with Total Depravity. It seems like you already have taken your poll. How many have you found and how many of them did not believe? Unless you don't remember or maybe it's an odd suspicion that something is off. I have met some who say they are a 4-point Calvinists. Never really asked which point they disagreed with - maybe it is this one?

I generally have a problem with TULIP. I think It is like trying to put God's mind and will in a box and presenting it to someone, "Here you go, This is man, this is life, this is how God does it ... TULIP ... nice package ... go sell it."
It's quite arrogant and it is flawed. There are many truths, but it is blurry, incomplete. We see blurry. We can exhaust our brilliance, as He was a brilliant theologian, but must leave our theology unsealed, with an open end, don't close the box, because we are not omniscient, not qualified to. Each individual is saved in a unique way and that means billions if souls. At best we can see principles, truths, but man is flawed in His understanding. Let's just stick to the Bible without putting constraints on it.
I have read the Bible for many years and have had the Holy Spirit in me guiding my path. He never once guiding me to TULIP. I just bumped into it occasionally. Actually I thought it was kind of cold.
The Holy Spirit never told me, "Go seek what Calvin said, adopt his theology, learn TULIP, He puts everything I said to you into perspective ... my boy had full understanding man, life and how I do things!" No, He never told me to do that. I did though.
The Bible has always attracted me, it has been like food, I can never get enough. I never felt that attraction, nor was I drawn to TULIP - there must be a reason.

 

[Episkopos]

Are there no Calvinists that know what they believe? Already have 16 views and not one vote.

I think we need to tiptoe through the T.U.L.I.P.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I think we need to tiptoe through the T.U.L.I.P.

Lol, not even Tiny Tim took Calvin seriuosly.

 

[DPMartin]

That was back then. Because of God's principles, His love and grace permeating throughout the world for thousands of years, man has been affected and the world has been changed to some degree. Goodness has rubbed off onto us in many ways. Certainly without God, life is vanity of vanities and chasing after the wind. Without God's goodness, life would be totally dark. But the world has experienced good, given to us by God, we have a history of good and evil.
We have the knowledge of good and evil. Through life's experiences, we learn to choose good over evil - even the unregenerate soul does.
We see virtues in men, who perform good deeds.
What would you say if I told you that during the Great Depression obviously crime increased, but not in a ceratin community in a large city? What would you say about this community? Would you think it was a Christian community? Must be regenate Christians, couldn't be any other part of society who are "totally depraved". It was Chinatown in San Francisco. Buddhists evidently aren't totally evil. They have learned to live in harmony, with respect, honor, good work ethics and peacefully. They lractice self control over emotions, deprivation, they have learned about good and evil and have willingly chosen good. They hot the horizontal thing down, just need to get the vertical - with God.

Back before the flood, they didn't have much history of the knowledge of good..it was lawless and raw. But there were exceptions. Enoch walked with God, and God found favor in Noah and his family. Were they totally depraved? They were spiritually dead, yet they responded to God, practiced good and were obedient, they cooperated with their radically corrupted souls.
There is no argument that we are born spiritually dead and in need God's grace, His gift of faith ... a Savior. Because of our fallen, sinful nature, we can not save ourselves. Our nature is defective, we start out that way and then what happens? Our parents and civilized society teach us right from wrong. We learn about morality, God's laws, government laws, justice and after maturing, we become persuaded that it is better to try to live an honest life and to do good.

We are not utterly depraved to the extent that there is no good at all in us. If people now were all totally depraved, we would not do any good ever and when God would try to prepare our hearts - we just would not conform to His plan and cooperate.
I'll agree that we are not capable of saving ourselves; but if we were totally depraved, how could we cooperate with God's grace in preparing our hearts before He transforms us? He guides our inner thoughts, tells us, "You ought to go this way, do that, help this person, accept this invitation to church, etc." If we were evil all the time, we would not choose to go His way, every choice would be the wrong one - but it is not that way. We do choose willingly to go the right way, do the right things at times. And then we get this inner voice that we resist and If not it sometimes and realize it was a mistake.
we cooperate with God when He is preparing our hearts. Couldn't do that if we were totally depraved. So as Rc Sproul puts it in a more palatable phrase instead of total depravity, it's called "Radical Corruption."
He speaks of this "vestigual remnant of righteousness". We aren't born with it, we learn it and conform to it. It is not the righteousness that is imputed to is when we are born again, but has elements if this purity.
Westminster Confession of Faith claims that due to the Fall of Man into the state of sin, man has wholly lost his will and ability to do anything spiritually good to save himself. He is not able to convert himself or even prepare himself (assist God in any way) in the process leading got to salvation.
How does man cooperate with God's preparing him if He is not able or willing to cooperate with the process of sanctification.
If we cannot do anything spiritually beneficial for ourselves and can't agree with God (prior to our transformation and this may include decades of working on us ), then how do we make willful choices to conform to His will when He draws us?
So then, if we cannot do anything good, He would have to force our will every step of the way. I don't think He does that. Why? Because we would be doing everything right, after His will _ all the time. Even after we are born again and God lives in us, we still fail to do His will all the time.
Calvinists claim is that man has lost the ability and will to make a decision to Go with God. We cannot come to Him unless He draws us, but the scripture says He draws all men to Himself. Obviously some continue to resist that grace. I resisted and rebelled against it for 25 years and then I was finally persuaded. That is another definition of God's gift of faith, " God's persuasion. He worked on me for decades and along the way, this defective and radically corrupted soul agredd with God's goodness. He taught it to me. So in essence, I made numerous decisions to go His way _ in His preparation _ until that final moment when He supernaturally transformed my spirit.
They say the blindness is like a veil that God lifts. He must lift it over time, allowing a little more light to get through until we are convinced.

show me in the bible where anyone has chosen God? remember now, the Israelites don't count because they are chosen.

 

[DPMartin]

The question I have is in the poll. Can you pick one please if you are Calvinist? This is the last of the seven days of the poll and no Calvinist seems to know what they believe.

i never said i was a Calvinist. Calvinism is just another theological category the simple seek to put people in.

 

[CharismaticLady]

ou said you found (looked into, came across or researched) that mot all Calvinists agree with Total Depravity. It seems like you already have taken your poll. How many have you found and how many of them did not believe? Unless you don't remember or maybe it's an odd suspicion that something is off. I have met some who say they are a 4-point Calvinists. Never really asked which point they disagreed with - maybe it is this one?

I was never in a Calvinistic denomination so wasn't even aware of what Calvinists believed. I had heard the term, along with Arminianism, but still was clueless as to their origins. What I've learned since first joining computer Christian forum sites has been shocking. And I'm neither. And I don't know how shocked to be at T. And the two questions in the poll are what they have not made clear.

Are we totally depraved before being born again, but not after (partially agree, but know we have knowledge to decide), or after as well (shocked). And if after as well, that explains why they believe 1 John 1:8 to be a Christian. It goes along with being totally depraved even after being cleansed of all unrighteousness. I guess they mean "imputed" righteousness, and not real.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

show me in the bible where anyone has chosen God? remember now, the Israelites don't count because they are chosen.

You did not respond to anything I wrote! I did not imply that man chooses God. Maybe try picking out something that I did say and respond to it.

 

[farouk]

If you are interested in learning..about 'total depravity' in more detail,
- You can get/read the book..
--
' The Total Depravity of Man'
A.W. Pink
--
It is available..from Kindle e book.

A W Pink is in some ways similar to both J I Packer and R B Kuiper, in his helpful dealings with the subject of Divine sovereignty.

 

[DPMartin]

You did not respond to anything I wrote! I did not imply that man chooses God. Maybe try picking out something that I did say and respond to it.

either way you're still trying to find good in man and there isn't you said something to the order of cooperating with God as He prepares our hearts. that's erroneous also. that which cooperates in your heart is of God because He replaces it with what is in His which is the commandment that He said He would put in our hearts and its in His Heart because Jesus fulfilled it and surly what is in His Heart He seeks to fulfill.


again man doesn't chose God or anything of God, God choses those who He knows will be faithful via His revelation. did you get a blinding light revelation like Paul did, no, its not required for what God requires of you.

the Lord God loves by revelation of the truth of Himself, and hates by withholding the truth of Himself. Jesus revealed His risen self to the faithful those He loved, He didn't reveal the same to the world. you want to count yourself good ground sure but you didn't make yourself you didn't make yourself the good ground. the clay doesn't tell the potter what the clay will be. the Lord is seeking His that which He knows are and or will be faithful. hence the concept of the elect. and without the Lord's revelation you would be depraved totally. even if you are good ground you still would be depraved.