CALVINISM: The height of Spiritual depravity

[Scott Downey]

Plainly many people do not believe what God has said...
Even if it is super clear He said it.
Then they tell you, you are wrong, but they have no defense as God did say it.
Yet they prefer to continue in their unbelief, as they find comfort in a lie believing God is not like that, it makes God a monster....

 

[Logikos]

So you are one of them that do not believe God blinds some and gives sight to others??

Not in the way you mean it.

God is just, Scott, not arbitrary.

 

[Logikos]

Plainly many people do not believe what God has said...
Even if it is super clear He said it.
Then they tell you, you are wrong, but they have no defense as God did say it.

Hypocrite!!

 

[Scott Downey]

Hypocrite!!

You do not love these scriptures do you....you prefer scriptures that do not challenge your unbelief. Well then stay there, I cannot make the blind see. Only God can change the heart towards him and His words.
All the scriptures are God breathed and useful for doctrine, reproof, training in righteousness.

 

[Scott Downey]

Not in the way you mean it.

God is just, Scott, not arbitrary.

It is you who are unjust, there is no unrighteousness with God. God is perfectly in his right to cast you into hell.
The only reason He won't do that is if He chooses to show mercy and love to you and not impute to you your sins.
Do you think the false teachers who say they believe in Jesus have God's loving kindness and favor? Or will God send them to hell.
Or those who practice the works of the flesh and resist God yet claim to be a brother in the Lord, will God deny to them the kingdom? Well He says do not be deceived, they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Justice​

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[Scott Downey]

The charge against God has been made by someone calling Him arbitrary because of what the scripture says he does. I have heard that before....

God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. This was His decision according to His own purpose and will, and was not arbitrary.

The apostle Paul wrote this to the church made of believers in Christ, those God has called to be saints, and is not for all the people...of this world, just for his own people that He foreknew as his people. This is known to 'us' (people who believe scripture) as the mystery of His will

The ones who believe it for all of humanity deny to God his right to be merciful to whom he will be merciful, and they say God is merciful to all people to save them all, but scripture is contrary to their opinions, and they contrary to God.

Ephesians 1
New King James Version
Greeting
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, [c]both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

 

[amigo de christo]

Change the subject much?

That isn't what he said. He said the GOD blinds some and gives sight to others.
I'd bet dollars to donuts that if pressed, we'd find out that you agree with him.

i wasnt talking about him . Just reminding us of WHO the BLIND are .

 

[Rightglory]

I agree with some, but not all of that. I agree that we are not born sinners. When Adam sinned he broke the relationship between God and Adam; he did not break the relationship between God and men. When each of us sinned, we broke that relationship. When we believe that relationship begins to heal.

I agree with that. But the fact is that we do not sin as did Adam. We sin because of our now fallen nature which Adam did not have. This phenomenon is explained in I Cor 15:56.

The condemnation due to Adam's sin was spiritual death, not physical death. Physical death was in integral part of creation.

This is where your theology begins to be inconsistent with scripture, God did not create death. Satan had the power of death and sin,. Heb 2: 14-17. This is why Christ needed to assume our human nature, so that by death, physical death and resurrection He defeated death.
God gave Adam a choice. He could continue to work with God to attain immortality, (the Tree of Life) or he could disobey and fall into death, mortality. By God creating death, God would have caused the fall of man by giving him a fallen nature
This is precisely what is stated in Rom 5:12 and I Cor 15:21-22. The preface to this summary verses 12-19 clearly shows that it is physical death that Paul is speaking about. Besides, Christ did not give (spiritual life) to all men. That is a choice that still remains within the purview of man to now respond to the call of the Holy Spirit to all men to repent. When they do, that relationship with God is restored. Scripture calls that regeneration which is accomplished by baptism.

To offset that, God placed the Tree of Life in the garden. So long as Adam was able to eat of the fruit of that tree, he would not die. That is the reason God kicked him out of the garden (Gen 3:22).

If Adam had actually eaten of the Tree of life, he would have attained immortality and would not have been able to sin. Because man could no longer attain it, it was up to Christ to overcome death and give man life, (immortality, incorruption) I Cor 15:53.
He was removed from the garden so he would not eat of the Tree of Life and be eternally in sin.

 

[Rightglory]

This much is not in dispute but if your position as communicated in the rest of your post is correct, then the virgin birth of Christ was superfluous as best, having served no purpose.

Why would you come to that conclusion?

 

[JBO]

"Wherefore as by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinner" Romans 5:22.

I think that refers only to spiritual death. Clearly death was an integral part of the creation (Gen 3;22)

"Therefore, as by one man's disobedience (Adam) many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one (Christ) shall many be made righteous" Romans 5:19.

What that says is that whatever you think was the result of Adam's disobedience, the result of Jesus' obedience set aside the result of Adam's disobedience. And the grammatical construction of the "as by....so by" says it is the "so by" part that is the point being made. Given that the effect due to Adam was "Original Sin", then the effect due to Jesus was to negate "Original Sin". In neither case of effects due to Adam or the effects due to Jesus does the individual have any role to play. Thus instead of one being born burdened with the trespass of Adam, one is born blessed with the righteousness of Jesus. And neither has anything to do with the sins of the individual. Paul deals with that immediately following in chapter 6.

 

[Logikos]

You do not love these scriptures do you....you prefer scriptures that do not challenge your unbelief. Well then stay there, I cannot make the blind see. Only God can change the heart towards him and His words.
All the scriptures are God breathed and useful for doctrine, reproof, training in righteousness.

And none of them teach that God is arbitrary.

 

[Logikos]

It is you who are unjust,

Saying it doesn't make it so, Scott.

there is no unrighteousness with God. God is perfectly in his right to cast you into hell.

Not for sin I didn't commit nor for evil deed that He predestined that I perform nor for good deeds that He made impossible for me to do.

The only reason He won't do that is if He chooses to show mercy and love to you and not impute to you your sins.

He chooses to do that for anyone who chooses to believe.

Do you think the false teachers who say they believe in Jesus have God's loving kindness and favor? Or will God send them to hell.

What are you talking about?

Or those who practice the works of the flesh and resist God yet claim to be a brother in the Lord, will God deny to them the kingdom? Well He says do not be deceived, they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Justice​

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Romans 9 has nothing to do with predestination. NOTHING!

I'd establish that claim but it I think it would be wasted on you. Prove me wrong by stopping with the ridiculous hostility that is based on nothing other than assumptions about what you think I believe.

 

[Logikos]

i wasnt talking about him . Just reminding us of WHO the BLIND are .

Yeah, like I said, changing the subject.

 

[Logikos]

Why would you come to that conclusion?

If had bothered to read my post instead of jumping at any excuse you could find to post your personal opinions, you'd already know the answer to that question.

 

[JBO]

I agree with that. But the fact is that we do not sin as did Adam. We sin because of our now fallen nature which Adam did not have. This phenomenon is explained in I Cor 15:56.


This is where your theology begins to be inconsistent with scripture, God did not create death. Satan had the power of death and sin,.

Satan has no power of physical death. That is made clear in the account of Job.

If Adam had actually eaten of the Tree of life, he would have attained immortality and would not have been able to sin.

That makes no sense at all. Why then did God even put the Tree of knowledge of good and evil there in the first place. Why didn't he just instruct Adam to eat of the Tree of Life at the very outset, then none of this fallen stuff would have ever happened.

Because man could no longer attain it, it was up to Christ to overcome death and give man life, (immortality, incorruption) I Cor 15:53.

Jesus didn't overcome physical death. Everyone, save those still living when Jesus returns, dies.

He was removed from the garden so he would not eat of the Tree of Life and be eternally in sin.

That is true, but not in the way that you might think. It was not a cure; it only treated the symptoms. So long as he ate of the fruit of the Tree of Life he would live. It was a Tree of LIFE, not a Tree of immortality. There was/is absolutely nothing of this physical universe that exists forever. All is finite.

 

[JBO]

So, is just being a jerk your answer for everything?

So just repeating your condemnation back to you makes me a jerk, but not you. Being a little narcissistic there Logy?

I'm through wasting time with you.

Good bye!

Again, right back atcha ! ! !

 

[Logikos]

So just repeating your condemnation back to you makes me a jerk, but not you. Being a little narcissistic there Logy?

Again, right back atcha ! ! !

You are a hypocrite!!!

Welcome to my ignore list!
(Not that you'd care!)

 

[Rightglory]

Satan has no power of physical death. That is made clear in the account of Job.

Job has nothing to do with it. Heb 2:14-15. Clearly, it states Christ assumed our human nature, became like one of us, so that He could defeat the one who has the power over death.

That makes no sense at all. Why then did God even put the Tree of knowledge of good and evil there in the first place. Why didn't he just instruct Adam to eat of the Tree of Life at the very outset, then none of this fallen stuff would have ever happened.

Because He created Adam in His own Image and likeness. He created Adam with an independent will from His own. Man is free. Love cannot be forced. God desired a relationship with man that was freely received and returned. Same thing He requires of us today.

Jesus didn't overcome physical death. Everyone, save those still living when Jesus returns, dies.

Adam's death, dust to dust, as well as the world God created, would simply dissolve into nothingness. God did not desire that His creation would be destroyed by death. Man dies once so that this body of sin in which we live can die to rid it of our mortal nature and sin. Christ's resurrection restored an eternal existance for His creation. It is why His resurrection is called the recapitulation of the world. In the last day, all death will end. God will make all things new because of the Resurrection of Christ. All men will be raised to immortality and incorruptibility. It makes heaven and hell a reality.
So how do you interpret these ? Rom 5;12, 18; and I Cor 15:12-22, 53, Heb 2:9, II Tim 1:10.

That is true, but not in the way that you might think. It was not a cure; it only treated the symptoms. So long as he ate of the fruit of the Tree of Life he would live. It was a Tree of LIFE, not a Tree of immortality. There was/is absolutely nothing of this physical universe that exists forever. All is finite.

You cannot have it both ways. If, as you stated before, Adam was created mortal, then he cannot eat of the Tree of life, Death would have become immortal. Which is why He was removed from the garden.

 

[JBO]

Job has nothing to do with it. Heb 2:14-15. Clearly, it states Christ assumed our human nature, became like one of us, so that He could defeat the one who has the power over death.

Satan has no control over physical death directly. Satan had to get permission from God to bring death to the family of Job. Jesus has overcome spiritual death by his death on the cross. Everyone dies physically: Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Adam's death, dust to dust, as well as the world God created, would simply dissolve into nothingness. God did not desire that His creation would be destroyed by death. Man dies once so that this body of sin in which we live can die to rid it of our mortal nature and sin. Christ's resurrection restored an eternal existance for His creation. It is why His resurrection is called the recapitulation of the world.

Where is Jesus resurrection called the recapitulation of the world?

In the last day, all death will end. God will make all things new because of the Resurrection of Christ. All men will be raised to immortality and incorruptibility. It makes heaven and hell a reality.
So how do you interpret these ? Rom 5;12, 18; and I Cor 15:12-22, 53, Heb 2:9, II Tim 1:10.

My answers to those passages in RED

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and (spiritual) death through sin, and so (spiritual) death spread to all men because all sinned--

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Adam's sin led to Original Sin; Jesus' righteousness lead to overturning Original Sin to replace it with Original Grace.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made (spiritually) alive. Some will die the second (spiritual) death (Rev 20:6).

1Co 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

Heb 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste (spiritual) death for everyone.

2Ti 1:10 and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished (spiritual) death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

You cannot have it both ways. If, as you stated before, Adam was created mortal, then he cannot eat of the Tree of life, Death would have become immortal. Which is why He was removed from the garden.

The Tree of Life was not a cure; it only treated the symptoms. The Tree of Life did not bring immortality; rather, death would be prevented so long as Adam ate of the fruit. That is why God ejected him from the Garden. The physical body was not, is not and will not be immortal. Nothing of this physical universe, animate or inanimate, will last forever (2 Pet 3).

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

I do not understand the desire, the proclivity, to wanting eternal life to be a physical existence. This flesh of the physical body, sarx in the Greek, is the source of nearly all sin. Why anyone would want to continue with such a body in heaven is quite beyond me.

 

[amigo de christo]

recapitulation of the world?
Me oh my that there is a six syllable word my friends .
I dont even know what it means , let alone if i can pronounce the thing .