Calvinism vs. Arminianism

[Kermos]

That is all well and good but Good is not a monster puppet master that control everyone and turns all reality into a sadistic puppet show. I am not judging God I am saying your intent to twist the meaning of the scripture to prove God is evil is a lie. I have a sense of humor...work hard at going to hell.

There you go again, calling the good Potter, the good God (Mark 10:18) a "monster puppet master" and God's reality a "sadistic puppet show". You repeatedly call the Potter a evil names as shown in this prior post.

The Apostle Paul, on the other hand, declares that God is the Potter, and persons are the clay being formed either for glory or for destruction (Romans 9:20-23).

The Prophet Isaiah declares that God is the Potter, and persons are the clay (Isaiah 64:8).

You call Paul a liar.

You call Isaiah a liar.

You call God a liar.

Salvation is no joking matter, but you talk of humor in a post that you mock the Potter.

In reality, the Potter is good, in fact, ONLY the Potter is good (Mark 10:18), so that makes all persons evil (Romans 3:8-10).

The evil being, you, call the good being, the Potter, evil.

It is written "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter" (Isaiah 5:20)!

Lord Jesus is God (John 20:28), so this means that Jesus is the Potter, and the Potter says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There you go again, calling the good Potter, the good God (Mark 10:18) a "monster puppet master" and God's reality a "sadistic puppet show". You repeatedly call the Potter a evil names as shown in this prior post.

The Apostle Paul, on the other hand, declares that God is the Potter, and persons are the clay being formed either for glory or for destruction (Romans 9:20-23).

The Prophet Isaiah declares that God is the Potter, and persons are the clay (Isaiah 64:8).

You call Paul a liar.

You call Isaiah a liar.

You call God a liar.

Salvation is no joking matter, but you talk of humor in a post that you mock the Potter.

In reality, the Potter is good, in fact, ONLY the Potter is good (Mark 10:18), so that makes all persons evil (Romans 3:8-10).

The evil being, you, call the good being, the Potter, evil.

It is written "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter" (Isaiah 5:20)!

Lord Jesus is God (John 20:28), so this means that Jesus is the Potter, and the Potter says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

People fear the fact that salvation is all of God and nothing of us!

Human pride fears the fact that God is absolutely sovereign and we can do nothing unless He first allowed it!

Yes we do choose to obey- because God gave us the ability to obey! When we do not obey we live in the consequence of sin.

 

[Kermos]

YOU need a real bible then.

Ezekiel 20:33-38
King James Version

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.


John 6:44
King James Version

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


I can show you many many many more verses in a real Bible that shows God forces things upon both the saved and the lost!

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Gods will is not diminshed because of the false concept that He will not force His will on anyone.

Now, that's scriptural, Richard Nolette! Praise God!

May I be so bold as to add these word of Lord Jesus:

"I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from [the] wise and intelligent and hav
e revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight" (Matthew 11:25-26).

Now, I need to go and check on the post by @Eternally Grateful ,

 

[Kermos]

Whatever

As I said I have taught it both ways, I will look up my studies and post the non fatalistic view, Have no desire to sit here and argue with you you would Not hear it anyway.

Your "Whatever" is a flippant and disrespectful statement toward the good Potter (Romans 9:20-23), the good God (Mark 10:18).

A little leaven leavens the whole loaf (Galatians 5:9), so your teaching poisons the whole!

Unlike you, I believe that God, at God's discretion, can impart the good message into your heart and grant you life, and the good message is that God does it all to save a person from the wrath of God while the person is capable of doing nothing just as this post in this thread shows that God alone produces everything for salvation including belief/faith, repentence, the new birth (born again), choice, and good works/fruit, it is exclusively all by God through God in God, none by man, all by God just as the Word of God reveals in this post.

Without an apology from you about your dreadful error, you must be sticking by your subtracting word "man" from the Apostle Paul's writing (Romans 9:20), and then you are adding to scripture with the word "nation".

Paul wrote "who are you, O man, who answers back to God" (Romans 9:20); on the contrary, you make out that Paul wrote "who are you, O nation, who answers back to God", but your conveyance is not what Paul wrote.

Paul was writing about persons when he wrote the recorded words in Romans 9:20-23 since he used the word "man", and this is about salvation or no salvation because Paul wrote "vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory" (Romans 9:23) for salvation and "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" (Romans 9:22) for no salvation.

Accoordingly, per Paul, Christian teaching is that God is the Potter, that the Potter molds vessels of mercy, and that the Potter molds vessels of wrath (Romans 9:20-23).

Lord Jesus is God (John 20:28), so this means that Jesus is the Potter, and the Potter says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

 

[Grailhunter]

There you go again, calling the good Potter, the good God (Mark 10:18) a "monster puppet master" and God's reality a "sadistic puppet show". You repeatedly call the Potter a evil names as shown in this prior post.

The Apostle Paul, on the other hand, declares that God is the Potter, and persons are the clay being formed either for glory or for destruction (Romans 9:20-23).

The Prophet Isaiah declares that God is the Potter, and persons are the clay (Isaiah 64:8).

You call Paul a liar.

You call Isaiah a liar.

You call God a liar.

Salvation is no joking matter, but you talk of humor in a post that you mock the Potter.

In reality, the Potter is good, in fact, ONLY the Potter is good (Mark 10:18), so that makes all persons evil (Romans 3:8-10).

The evil being, you, call the good being, the Potter, evil.

It is written "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter" (Isaiah 5:20)!

Lord Jesus is God (John 20:28), so this means that Jesus is the Potter, and the Potter says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

I call your interpretation of what they say evil...a biblical student of Satan.

 

[CoreIssue]

none of those verses has anything to do with salvation.

 

[Kermos]

I call your interpretation of what they say evil...a biblical student of Satan.

I state that Paul wrote God is the Potter who molds the clay, that is people, (Romans 9:20-23), so you call Paul a "student of Satan".

I state that Isaiah said God is the Potter and people are the clay (Isaiah 64:8), so you call Isaiah a "student of Satan".

Wow, your interpretation is contradicts scripture, right there, Grailhunter!

I depend on the Holy Spirit to interpret and reveal to me (2 Peter 1:20-21), so it is not my interpretation.

In reality, the Potter is good, in fact, ONLY the Potter is good (Mark 10:18), so that makes all persons evil (Romans 3:8-10).

The evil being, you, call the good being, the Potter, evil.

It is written "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter" (Isaiah 5:20)!

Lord Jesus is God (John 20:28), so this means that Jesus is the Potter, and the Potter says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

 

[Kermos]

none of those verses has anything to do with salvation.

If you, since you are very vague, are referring to Romans 9:20-23, then the following applies.

Paul wrote "who are you, O man, who answers back to God" (Romans 9:20).

Notice that Paul wrote "man", so Paul is dealing with persons.

Based on your writing of "Did God make a mistake in choosing Israel" and "Based on a misinterpretation of ROmans 9", then

you make out that Paul wrote "who are you, O nation of Israel, who answers back to God", but that is not what Paul wrote, so

Paul was writing about individual persons when he wrote:

"who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory' (Romans 9:20-23).

So Christian teaching is that the Apostle Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God proclaims that God is the Potter, that the Potter molds vessels of mercy, and that the Potter molds vessels of wrath (Romans 9:20-23).

Lord Jesus is God (John 20:28), so this means that Jesus is the Potter, and the Potter says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

 

[Grailhunter]

I state that Paul wrote God is the Potter who molds the clay, that is people, (Romans 9:20-23), so you call Paul a "student of Satan".

I state that Isaiah said God is the Potter and people are the clay (Isaiah 64:8), so you call Isaiah a "student of Satan".

Wow, your interpretation is contradicts scripture, right there, Grailhunter!

I depend on the Holy Spirit to interpret and reveal to me (2 Peter 1:20-21), so it is not my interpretation.

In reality, the Potter is good, in fact, ONLY the Potter is good (Mark 10:18), so that makes all persons evil (Romans 3:8-10).

The evil being, you, call the good being, the Potter, evil.

It is written "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter" (Isaiah 5:20)!

Lord Jesus is God (John 20:28), so this means that Jesus is the Potter, and the Potter says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

As tweety bird says, He don’t know me very well, do he!
Keep talking.

 

[Kermos]

As tweety bird says, He don??t know me very well, do he!
Keep talking.

Your post is devoid of scripture, just as your interpretation is.

Your mockery resounds against the Potter Who is God and the Apostle Paul and the Prophet Isaiah!

I state that Paul wrote God is the Potter who molds the clay, that is people, (Romans 9:20-23), so you call Paul a "student of Satan".

I state that Isaiah said God is the Potter and people are the clay (Isaiah 64:8), so you call Isaiah a "student of Satan".

Wow, your interpretation is contradicts scripture, right there, Grailhunter!

I depend on the Holy Spirit to interpret and reveal to me (2 Peter 1:20-21), so it is not my interpretation.

In reality, the Potter is good, in fact, ONLY the Potter is good (Mark 10:18), so that makes all persons evil (Romans 3:8-10).

The evil being, you, call the good being, the Potter, evil.

It is written "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter" (Isaiah 5:20)!

Lord Jesus is God (John 20:28), so this means that Jesus is the Potter, and the Potter says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

 

[Behold]

"God" creates and governs the person's will by necessity. That's what it means to be God over persons.
.

If God governed your will then it would not be Free.
IF God governed your will then you would not be able to freely choose.

So, are you ever hungry?
Who decides if you eat the pizza or eat the fish or eat the ice cream?
You do.
Enjoy your free will.

 

[Grailhunter]

Your post is devoid of scripture, just as your interpretation is.

Your mockery resounds against the Potter Who is God and the Apostle Paul and the Prophet Isaiah!

I state that Paul wrote God is the Potter who molds the clay, that is people, (Romans 9:20-23), so you call Paul a "student of Satan".

I state that Isaiah said God is the Potter and people are the clay (Isaiah 64:8), so you call Isaiah a "student of Satan".

Wow, your interpretation is contradicts scripture, right there, Grailhunter!

I depend on the Holy Spirit to interpret and reveal to me (2 Peter 1:20-21), so it is not my interpretation.

In reality, the Potter is good, in fact, ONLY the Potter is good (Mark 10:18), so that makes all persons evil (Romans 3:8-10).

The evil being, you, call the good being, the Potter, evil.

It is written "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter" (Isaiah 5:20)!

Lord Jesus is God (John 20:28), so this means that Jesus is the Potter, and the Potter says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

You can use God's Word to blaspheme God all ya want, but in the end it will just be you and Christ and you trying to explain why you spent your life blaspheming God...a lot of effort to dig your way to hell.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

YOU need a real bible then.

Ezekiel 20:33-38
King James Version

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.


John 6:44
King James Version

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


I can show you many many many more verses in a real Bible that shows God forces things upon both the saved and the lost!

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Gods will is not diminshed because of the false concept that He will not force His will on anyone.

Those passages do not support your God who refuses to allow everyone a chance of salvation

nice try though

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Your "Whatever" is a flippant and disrespectful statement toward the good Potter (Romans 9:20-23), the good God (Mark 10:18).

A little leaven leavens the whole loaf (Galatians 5:9), so your teaching poisons the whole!

Unlike you, I believe that God, at God's discretion, can impart the good message into your heart and grant you life, and the good message is that God does it all to save a person from the wrath of God while the person is capable of doing nothing just as this post in this thread shows that God alone produces everything for salvation including belief/faith, repentence, the new birth (born again), choice, and good works/fruit, it is exclusively all by God through God in God, none by man, all by God just as the Word of God reveals in this post.

Without an apology from you about your dreadful error, you must be sticking by your subtracting word "man" from the Apostle Paul's writing (Romans 9:20), and then you are adding to scripture with the word "nation".

Paul wrote "who are you, O man, who answers back to God" (Romans 9:20); on the contrary, you make out that Paul wrote "who are you, O nation, who answers back to God", but your conveyance is not what Paul wrote.

Paul was writing about persons when he wrote the recorded words in Romans 9:20-23 since he used the word "man", and this is about salvation or no salvation because Paul wrote "vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory" (Romans 9:23) for salvation and "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" (Romans 9:22) for no salvation.

Accoordingly, per Paul, Christian teaching is that God is the Potter, that the Potter molds vessels of mercy, and that the Potter molds vessels of wrath (Romans 9:20-23).

Lord Jesus is God (John 20:28), so this means that Jesus is the Potter, and the Potter says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

Yawn

His misrepresentation of Paul in his writings of Roman 9 is rude.

you all are all alike

 

[Rudometkin]

If God governed your will then it would not be Free.
IF God governed your will then you would not be able to freely choose.

Right. Nothing is free from God in that sense, because He governs everything. He is God of everything. He doesn't become a mere spectator over some parts of His creation, as if He were a mere man. He is consistently God over everything. God of all things. God. Not merely spectator, but God. All things. Creator of all things. He creates with a purpose.

So, are you ever hungry?

Yes. Not because I will to be hungry, but because God governs my hunger.

Do you often consider God's attributes?

Who decides if you eat the pizza or eat the fish or eat the ice cream?

God decided what I will think and do from eternity. Because He is my God. Not my mere spectator, but my God.

You do.

Where is God in your answer?

Enjoy your free will.

Where is God in your command?

My will is not free from God in the sense that He decides and causes what it will be.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Those passages do not support your God who refuses to allow everyone a chance of salvation

nice try though

This is god forcing His will on people. And two of them are for salvation.


Well If everyone has an equal chance at salvation, then you have serious problems.

Those in the flesh cannot please God (Romans 8) but yet you believe that every unsaved person (those in the flesh) can please God by using some "ephemeral free will" to choose god while in the flesh.

Romans 3 says none seek after god which blends perfectly with romans 8 and 1 Cor. 2, but you say that a person in th eflesh who neither seeks God nor even understands the things of God can by that special ephemereal free will can choose God on their own.

That is not in the bible anywhere. I see God always doing the choosing and not man choosing.

 

[CoreIssue]

Romans 8 says freewill choice then predestination.

 

[Amazed@grace]

Salutations JBF.
It is one thing for God to know how it is all going to turn out and set a place for you.
At that point there is no need for predestination. That is the way it is going to turn out.
No harm with that...place at the banquet...right!
But if God locks it all down, that is entirely something different...something evil. The world becomes a preplanned play. No good done by man is to their credit and no bad done is their fault. God takes all the credit...good and bad.
Satan knows his quota from the beginning and judgement day is nullified.
That is the reason that I do not believe that God does that.
Predestination of events is certainly an ability of God...but the whole puppet master thing is ludicrous.
Once you get into that, you get into the whole destiny thing that Christianity does not agree with either.

About the judgement and what you said there. Wouldn't it mean more to us? Since God had already known we would arrive there having put our names in his book of life. Now we would learn of our portion of reward in the kingdom due to our works in and for his name.
What Does the Bible Say About God Ordains All Things?

 

[Grailhunter]

About the judgement and what you said there. Wouldn't it mean more to us? Since God had already known we would arrive there having put our names in his book of life. Now we would learn of our portion of reward in the kingdom due to our works in and for his name.
What Does the Bible Say About God Ordains All Things?

The Book of Life...that would be one big book. There is some debate as to exactly what it is. One thing for sure, you want your name in it.

Now we would learn of our portion of reward in the kingdom due to our works in and for his name.
What exactly do you mean by this statement.

 

[Amazed@grace]

The Book of Life...that would be one big book. There is some debate as to exactly what it is. One thing for sure, you want your name in it.

Now we would learn of our portion of reward in the kingdom due to our works in and for his name.
What exactly do you mean by this statement.

2 Corinthians 5:10 the ESV version. As one example.