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Featured Calvinism vs. Arminianism

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by justbyfaith, Feb 25, 2021.

  1. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    You know as well as I do that what you have said is BLATANTLY FALSE. Reformed Theology teaches its adherents that God assigns souls to Hell, just as he elects some for Heaven. And here is the proof from the Westminster Confession of Faith (a required reading for all Reformed Christians).

    WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH
    III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.

    IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.

    V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or
    perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace.

    VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation.Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

    VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praised of His glorious justice.


    No honest person will deny the import of these teachings. Calvinists are plainly telling people that some are predestined for Hell ("everlasting death"), because God has supposedly "decreed" this. And as we know God's actual decrees are carved in stone.

    Is this a wicked gospel? Absolutely. Does it deny the plain teachings of Scripture? Absolutely. Is it under a curse? Absolutely.

    So now let's see if Ronald Nolette will inform everyone that he was misleading the public, and that what I have consistently said is true to fact.
     
    Grailhunter likes this.
  2. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Well-Known Member

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    Well if you think God dragged you against your will as your tried to stand still and kept fighting him as you were skinned alive being dragged across the pavement, well feel free

    I saw in your testimony God setting you up. Putting you in position where you were forced to chose. Andled you by the hand to him.

    God will not force us against our will
     
  3. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    Good job Enoch!
    Ronald is not only going to arrive at Judgment Day having to explain why he preached that God is a monster....
    He is also going to have to explain why he preached this sacrilegious blasphemy to children.
    Wonder if a size 8 millstone will fit him?
    The other day I posed the question if there could be a greater sin than 70 some odd million babies being murdered a year worldwide.
    This sin I believe sits just under that.
    I think an accomplished serial killer will fair better on Judgment Day.
     
  4. Kermos

    Kermos Active Member

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    Paul wrote "who are you, O man, who answers back to God" (Romans 9:20).

    Notice that Paul wrote "man", so Paul is dealing with persons.

    Based on your writing of "Did God make a mistake in choosing Israel" and "Based on a misinterpretation of ROmans 9", then

    you make out that Paul wrote "who are you, O nation of Israel, who answers back to God", but that is not what Paul wrote, so

    Paul was writing about persons when he wrote:

    "who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory' (Romans 9:20-23).

    So Christian teaching is that the Apostle Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God proclaims that God is the Potter, that the Potter molds vessels of mercy, and that the Potter molds vessels of wrath (Romans 9:20-23).

    Lord Jesus is God (John 20:28), so this means that Jesus is the Potter, and the Potter says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).
     
  5. Kermos

    Kermos Active Member

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    Again, your lack of scriptural citation shows the emptiness of your interpretation! That puts all your writing OUTSIDE of the Bible there.

    Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit declares that God is the Potter, and persons are the clay of formed either for glory or for destruction (Romans 9:20-23).

    The Prophet Isaiah declares that God is the Potter, and persons are the clay (Isaiah 64:8).

    You under the inspiration of the flesh declare that the same Potter is a "monster" (see this post for proot), essentially you call God an evil being, so people like you assert things like not being one that can ever serve the Potter.

    In reality, the Potter is good, in fact, ONLY the Potter is good (Mark 10:18), so that makes you evil (Romans 3:8-10).

    The evil being, you, call the good being, the Potter, evil, so you embrace deception.

    Lord Jesus is God (John 20:28), so this means that Jesus is the Potter, and the Potter says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).
     
  6. Kermos

    Kermos Active Member

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    The vessels of wrath for whom God is longsuffering, these vessels of wrath are the ones that God chose before the foundation of the world for salvation just as this heavily scriptural post in this thread shows which quotes Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2.

    So, God converts the vessels of wrath to vessels of mercy, just as this heavily scriptural post shows that God alone produces everything for salvation including belief/faith (John 6:29), repentence (Matthew 11:25), the new birth (born again) (John 3:3-8), choice (John 15:16, John 15:19), and good works/fruit (John 3:21), it is exclusively all by God through God in God, none by man, all by God just as the Word of God reveals in this post.

    SO, NO, I FORGOT NOTHING, BUT YOU ADD AND SUBTRACT CONCEPTUALLY OF SCRIPTURE, ENOCH111.

    You say the "world" is all of humanity because you wrote "God invites the whole world of humanity to salvation".

    Well, the "world" in John 3:14-16 means God saves ONLY God's chosen persons just as this heavily scripture post shows.

    Now, let's move on to the Apostle John's writing of "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for [those of] the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

    In case you did not know, I'd like to point out that the phrase "the whole world" is mentioned twice in 1 John. That's one book, Enoch111.

    The Apostle John also wrote "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19). Applying your interpretation of "world" in 1 John 2:2 into the phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 means that all the children of God lie in the evil one because you say "world" means every person without exception.

    "You have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13) was wrtten by the Apostle John, too, and this means that Christians are beyond the evil one and do not lie in the evil one.

    You claim to be a Christian, but you claim that you are part of "world", so that means that your name, Enoch111, can replace the phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 resulting in Enoch111 lies in the evil one.

    Again, no Christian lies in the evil one, because the Apostle John wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13) with that "you" referring to Christians.

    John was writing to God's own persons in 1 John, so the context is believers. This means the letter is contextually from the perspecive of believers. This affects the phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 such that "the whole world" refers to the chosen of God (John 15:16, John 15:19) who are yet to be imparted faith/belief in the Son of God whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

    SO, AGAIN, YOU DECEIVE FOR I FORGOT NOTHING, BUT, RATHER, YOU ADD TO AND SUBTRACT FROM SCRIPTURE.

    There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
  7. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    The Bible is not written to counter every idiotic accusation.
    These scriptures are not there.
    Know ye that God is not stupid.
    Know ye that God is not from Mars.
    Know ye that God is not in league with the devil.
    Know ye God does not ride around in a flying saucer.
    Know ye God is not a poker player.
    Know ye God is not a monstrous puppet master.

    God can do anything....so you can say He does anything. Because of your character you accuse God of the horrible.
     
  8. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Well-Known Member

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    1. Paul was not talking about induvidual salvation
    2. Every argument God made was to show Israel was not chosen because frommans wisdom, but he chose his own way,

    I have done “both it” from both the fatalistic perspective and the non fatalistic perspectives and only in the non fatalistic view does Romans 9-11 make sense,
     
  9. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Well-Known Member

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    I casre little for teh Westminster confession where it veers from Scripture! The Bible is clear- god assigns no one to hell- people go their by virtue of simply being born with a sin nature and spiritually dead. Whatever church holds to this confession needs to edit it to align with SCripture.
     
  10. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Well-Known Member

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    He has been doing that since creation! Was the Israelites being forced into slavery according to their will?

    Was the diaspora according to their will?

    did the church will all the persecutions it has suffered over the centuries?

    God changes our will to even want Him!

    Phil 2: 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

    Read carefully--It is god and not our will that works in you forst to want to do His will and then to do His will! Wothout God changing the very way we think and desire- we would never desire Him according to His Word.
     
  11. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Well-Known Member

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    wow

    Well I am going to exit stage left here Your God is no God at all. My God claims to be a god of love. A God of love does not force people against their will. You can not have any type of meaningful relationship with a dictator who forces you against your will

    Good luck with Your God. You can have him.

    I will take the Abba Father I recieved when I was given the right to become a child of God
     
  12. Kermos

    Kermos Active Member

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    The Bible reveals Who God is.

    The Bible reveals who man is.

    The Bible includes the writings of the Apostle Paul.

    The Apostle Paul wrote "who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory' (Romans 9:20-23).

    Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit declares that God is the Potter, and persons are the clay of formed either for glory or for destruction (Romans 9:20-23).

    The Prophet Isaiah declares that God is the Potter, and persons are the clay (Isaiah 64:8).

    You under the inspiration of the flesh declare that the same Potter, Whom Paul wrote of in Romans 9:20-23, is "horrible" and a "monster" (see this post for proot), essentially you call God an evil being.

    In reality, the Potter is good, in fact, ONLY the Potter is good (Mark 10:18), so that makes all persons evil (Romans 3:8-10).

    The evil being, you, call the good being, the Potter, evil.

    It is written "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter" (Isaiah 5:20)!

    Lord Jesus is God (John 20:28), so this means that Jesus is the Potter, and the Potter says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

    You deny the writing of the Apostle Paul and the Prophet Isaiah. You are subtracting from scripture, and such subtraction carries a deadly penalty.
     
  13. Kermos

    Kermos Active Member

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    You are subtracting word "man" from the Apostle Paul's writing (Romans 9:20), and then you are adding to scripture with the word "nation".

    It's not what you've "done" that matters.

    The revealing of Who God is per the scriptures delivered to man, this is what matters.

    Paul wrote "who are you, O man, who answers back to God" (Romans 9:20); on the contrary, you make out that Paul wrote "who are you, O nation, who answers back to God", but your conveyance is not what Paul wrote.

    Paul was writing about persons when he wrote the recorded words in Romans 9:20-23 since he used the word "man", and this is about salvation or no salvation because Paul wrote "vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory" (Romans 9:23) for salvation and "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" (Romans 9:22) for no salvation.

    Accoordingly, per Paul, Christian teaching is that God is the Potter, that the Potter molds vessels of mercy, and that the Potter molds vessels of wrath (Romans 9:20-23).

    Lord Jesus is God (John 20:28), so this means that Jesus is the Potter, and the Potter says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).
     
  14. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    That is all well and good but Good is not a monster puppet master that control everyone and turns all reality into a sadistic puppet show. I am not judging God I am saying your intent to twist the meaning of the scripture to prove God is evil is a lie. I have a sense of humor...work hard at going to hell.
     
  15. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Well-Known Member

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    Well Bye bye then! I choose the God of the bible.
     
  16. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Well-Known Member

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    Whatever

    As I said I have taught it both ways, I will look up my studies and post the non fatalistic view, Have no desire to sit here and argue with you you would Not hear it anyway.
     
  17. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Well-Known Member

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    Not the Bible I read.
     
  18. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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  19. Rudometkin

    Rudometkin Active Member

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    "God" creates and governs the person's will by necessity. That's what it means to be God over persons.

    A "God" of love creates and governs the person's will by necessity. That's what it means to be God over persons.
     
  20. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Well-Known Member

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    YOU need a real bible then.

    Ezekiel 20:33-38
    King James Version

    33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

    34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

    35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

    36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

    37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

    38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.


    John 6:44
    King James Version

    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


    I can show you many many many more verses in a real Bible that shows God forces things upon both the saved and the lost!

    11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

    12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

    13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

    14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

    15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

    16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

    17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

    18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

    19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

    20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

    21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

    24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

    Gods will is not diminshed because of the false concept that He will not force His will on anyone.
     
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