Calvinism

[Waiting on him]

I agree that the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. I also agree that he who believes on the Son will see life, and he who does not will not but the wrath of God abides on him. It is, in fact, through Christ that we escape the wrath to come. Good verses, but they do not come close to answering the question.


Are you saying that you believe Jesus was ungodly and unrighteous?

Do you believe that Jesus was evil?

Or do you believe that God condemned the righteous (thus becoming an Abomination Himself)?

Why do you believe that God poured out His wrath on Christ?

I believe you may be putting way to much infuses on what’s created.

Romans 7:24 KJV
[24] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Christ in my opinion was willing and ready, inspired by the Spirit that walked in Him, to put off His tent for you, for me for all.
We see Paul modeling Him in scripture, even inviting us to follow his example as Christ also encouraged. The body God created for this purpose this is His power He can lay it down and raise it up. In my opinion it’s insignificant.
I believe its Romans, they worshipped that which was created and not the creator.


Tecarta Bible

 

[farouk]

I believe you may be putting way to much infuses on what’s created.

Romans 7:24 KJV
[24] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Christ in my opinion was willing and ready, inspired by the Spirit that walked in Him, to put off His tent for you, for me for all.
We see Paul modeling Him in scripture, even inviting us to follow his example as Christ also encouraged. The body God created for this purpose this is His power He can lay it down and raise it up. In my opinion it’s insignificant.
I believe its Romans, they worshipped that which was created and not the creator.


Tecarta Bible

Romans 7 is very searching and humbling...

 

[John Caldwell]

I believe you may be putting way to much infuses on what’s created.

Romans 7:24 KJV
[24] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Christ in my opinion was willing and ready, inspired by the Spirit that walked in Him, to put off His tent for you, for me for all.
We see Paul modeling Him in scripture, even inviting us to follow his example as Christ also encouraged. The body God created for this purpose this is His power He can lay it down and raise it up. In my opinion it’s insignificant.
I believe its Romans, they worshipped that which was created and not the creator.


Tecarta Bible

I think it is an important distinction.

I say this for a couple of reasons.

First, Scripture presents a relationship between God and Christ. This relationship embodies the utter holiness and love of God not only as the Father to His Son but also as Creator God to man. We can not expect God to show us love if He showed His Son wrath.

Second, Scripture states that it is an abomination to condemn the righteous, that God is just. This is in question if God punished Christ.

Third, scripture teaches that God forgives upon repentance, not upon a "sin debt" paid by satisfying the demands of divine justice.

Fourth, if we interpret Scripture as saying that God punished Christ instead of punishing us then we ignore what is actually stated in the text. We exchange the text for an idea we see as implied.

Fifth, when we are unable to identify the presuppositions tgat form Penal Substitution Theory we are completely unable to deal with Church history. The idea God punished Christ instead of punishing us is relatively new. If we see it implied at every turn then we cannot but understand it implied throughout history even in competing theologies.

 

[Waiting on him]

I think it is an important distinction.

I say this for a couple of reasons.

First, Scripture presents a relationship between God and Christ. This relationship embodies the utter holiness and love of God not only as the Father to His Son but also as Creator God to man. We can not expect God to show us love if He showed His Son wrath.

Second, Scripture states that it is an abomination to condemn the righteous, that God is just. This is in question if God punished Christ.

Third, scripture teaches that God forgives upon repentance, not upon a "sin debt" paid by satisfying the demands of divine justice.

Fourth, if we interpret Scripture as saying that God punished Christ instead of punishing us then we ignore what is actually stated in the text. We exchange the text for an idea we see as implied.

Fifth, when we are unable to identify the presuppositions tgat form Penal Substitution Theory we are completely unable to deal with Church history. The idea God punished Christ instead of punishing us is relatively new. If we see it implied at every turn then we cannot but understand it implied throughout history even in competing theologies.

He asks me to do the same that Christ did. ( no infuses on the flesh ) i still believe your hung up on the flesh.

 

[Waiting on him]

I think it is an important distinction.

I say this for a couple of reasons.

First, Scripture presents a relationship between God and Christ. This relationship embodies the utter holiness and love of God not only as the Father to His Son but also as Creator God to man. We can not expect God to show us love if He showed His Son wrath.

Second, Scripture states that it is an abomination to condemn the righteous, that God is just. This is in question if God punished Christ.

Third, scripture teaches that God forgives upon repentance, not upon a "sin debt" paid by satisfying the demands of divine justice.

Fourth, if we interpret Scripture as saying that God punished Christ instead of punishing us then we ignore what is actually stated in the text. We exchange the text for an idea we see as implied.

Fifth, when we are unable to identify the presuppositions tgat form Penal Substitution Theory we are completely unable to deal with Church history. The idea God punished Christ instead of punishing us is relatively new. If we see it implied at every turn then we cannot but understand it implied throughout history even in competing theologies.

Also Jesus says this is my body broken for you. This is the Glory of God to overcome the flesh.

 

[John Caldwell]

He asks me to do the same that Christ did. ( no infuses on the flesh ) i still believe your hung up on the flesh.

I agree that Christ died a physical death, and I agree we are to die to the flesh and will experience a physical death as well. And, of course, this us justice satisfied as we must be born again and made new creations in Christ rather than being justified in the flesh.

 

[John Caldwell]

Also Jesus says this is my body broken for you. This is the Glory of God to overcome the flesh.

I agree. It is Penal Substitution Theory I reject.

But more than that I believe it is up to those who hold the Theory to justify the assumption (how they "connect the dots".

 

[Waiting on him]

I agree that Christ died a physical death, and I agree we are to die to the flesh and will experience a physical death as well. And, of course, this us justice satisfied as we must be born again and made new creations in Christ rather than being justified in the flesh.

I feel that if I say that in the hands of evil men Christ was crucified, then I take the Glory intended only for God in Him accomplishing the putting off of the flesh. Then I can not say He overcame.

 

[Waiting on him]

I agree. It is Penal Substitution Theory I reject.

But more than that I believe it is up to those who hold the Theory to justify the assumption (how they "connect the dots".

I somewhat see what you are saying, but we have to also consider Paul baring the marks of Christ. I don’t believe we are vilifying God to say He punished Christ in our stead.

 

[Waiting on him]

He was not overcome, He orchestrated the whole thing. I’m of the opinion it’s His greatest accomplishment.

 

[John Caldwell]

I feel that if I say that in the hands of evil men Christ was crucified, then I take the Glory intended only for God in Him accomplishing the putting off of the flesh. Then I can not say He overcame.

I understand but I do not think it a problem because Scripture actually says it for us.

Acts 2:23-24
This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, d put him to death by nailing him to the cross. But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.


Scripture offers the crucifixion as an evil act within God's plan focused on God raising Him from the dead. I prefer to stay as close to that idea ad possible (even if it is less complete a view as Penal Substitution Theory).

 

[John Caldwell]

I somewhat see what you are saying, but we have to also consider Paul baring the marks of Christ. I don’t believe we are vilifying God to say He punished Christ in our stead.

I agree you would not vilify God to say He punished Christ because both the Father and Son are God.

The problem is Scripture does not affirm that God punished Christ instead of punishing us so those who hold the Theory need to at least address how they come up with the idea.

 

[Waiting on him]

I agree you would not vilify God to say He punished Christ because both the Father and Son are God.

The problem is Scripture does not affirm that God punished Christ instead of punishing us so those who hold the Theory need to at least address how they come up with the idea.

Ok, does Gods righteousness require there to be a punishment for evil deeds,
How can He be just if He condones evil.

 

[Waiting on him]

I’m no where near a secular judge, but if I were and everyone that came before me if I told them I’m a loving judge there’s no punishment for your evil deeds, am I just in doing this, how will the victims view me?

 

[John Caldwell]

Ok, does Gods righteousness require there to be a punishment for evil deeds,
How can He be just if He condones evil.

Sin (sinful actions) cannot be punished. Sinners can be punished. Scrioture teaches that sins are manifestations (fruits) of ones sinfulness.

Do you believe God has to punish "sinful actions" ot that God's judgment is against sinners (wicked people)?

Regardless, those saved are no longer sinners m, they are new creatures - born again in Christ. Tgere is no condemation and justice is satisfied (we have died to sin).

 

[John Caldwell]

I’m no where near a secular judge, but if I were and everyone that came before me if I told them I’m a loving judge there’s no punishment for your evil deeds, am I just in doing this, how will the victims view me?

This is a faulty example. We are not talking about punishing the sinner (the sinner dies to sin and is born again) but punishing an action.

Also, yoy are assuming retributive justice.

You punch me in the nose. I want to forgive you. Who do I have to punch instead of punching you?

 

[Waiting on him]

Sin (sinful actions) cannot be punished. Sinners can be punished. Scrioture teaches that sins are manifestations (fruits) of ones sinfulness.

Do you believe God has to punish "sinful actions" ot that God's judgment is against sinners (wicked people)?

Regardless, those saved are no longer sinners m, they are new creatures - born again in Christ. Tgere is no condemation and justice is satisfied (we have died to sin).

I believe He punishes me as a son now. When I was a child I took a beating almost every day from a father that was doing it for his pleasure. Gods love corrects for my good.
The way He accomplishes it is through conviction, because I want to be found pleasing to Him. The earthly father, I hated him at one time, but now I view him with empathy.

 

[Waiting on him]

This is a faulty example. We are not talking about punishing the sinner (the sinner dies to sin and is born again) but punishing an action.

Also, yoy are assuming retributive justice.

You punch me in the nose. I want to forgive you. Who do I have to punch instead of punching you?

You do as Paul, you buffet yourself

 

[Waiting on him]

You do as Paul, you buffet yourself

Like God did.

 

[John Caldwell]

You do as Paul, you buffet yourself

I do love me a good buffet.