Calvinist Question
- Thread starter CoreIssue
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
yes, you mentioned Adam, and left out the main person, Eve!
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
If that is your understanding of Calvinism then you have definitely got it wrong.
Calvinism has to be seen in the light of God's foreknowledge. As he is God and he knows everything from A to Z he knows those that are going to respond when they are presented with the love of God though Jesus the son. He also knows those who are going to reject his overture to respond to his love through Jesus.
I beleive that he knows everything from day one to the last day. A to Z if you like. If he doesn't then he is not God. He is having to sort things out as events unravel. That doesn't sound like God to me.
So, no one is chosen to go to hell. If anyone is going to hell the reason for that is they have chosen to go to hell. Where God comes into it is that he knows that the person has and will choose hell over heaven and no amount of pleading is going to change that person's decision.
It has been said if you don't want God on earth, why would you want him in the afterlife? Not logical.
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
1 Corinthians 15:22....As in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
The assumption is that God rejects when it is clear that God is in the Salvation business not the damnation business.
Did Jesus reject Judas?.....Judas condemned himself and what's more, he killed himself.
The good news is the message of Redemption just as the angels sang on Bethlehem's hills; for all men.
The position of Calvin on this point is in error.
Did I say anything unbiblical?
If I say for example, Paul preached Jesus Christ.
Peter first, you might say.
Is that unbiblical?
Was that really your point in saying that Eve first chose to disobey God?
Tong
R2666
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
so why did He create hell, where the majority of the human race is going to end up?
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
And you did not clarify what is unbiblical in what I said. Well,.... don’t bother. Let’s just drop this.
Tong
R2667
Let me guess. He created it for those who will choose to offend Him?
What’s your guess?
Tong
R2668
Last edited:
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
I don't guess, here are the words of Jesus, "“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41)
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
You seem to misunderstand the concept of "divine foreknowledge", which is NOT having information about someone or some event ahead of time. Divine Foreknowledge is God's having a relationship with someone that began in the past.
Consider the following passage.
Matthew 7:22-24
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
From this passage we come to see that the verb "to know" is relational, indicating that Jesus and his followers are connected by association with each other. Jesus knew about, i.e had information concerning those who prophesied in his name, but he didn't "know" them. They were not associated with him. They were not his followers.
Either Jesus knows me or he doesn't. Either I am associated with him or I am not. If I am a dedicated follower of Jesus, being led by the Holy Spirit, then Jesus "knows" me.
Now please consider this passage.
Romans 11:2
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Here we have another clue as to the meaning of "foreknew". Paul is talking about a people whom God "foreknew", indicating Israel. God has a relationship with the people of Israel, which is is unwilling to break or sever. He has not rejected the people with whom he had established a relationship.
Finally, God not only foreknew his people the physical sons and daughters of Abraham, but Jesus says that he has other sheep not of that fold.
John 10:16
I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.
I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
People will choose destruction...they will create it themselves....just as Judas did
Last edited:
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Romans 9:19-24
The Bible teaches us that God will judge us according to our deeds. Those who suffer punishment are those who deserved to be punished. (Actually, don't we all deserve to be punished? But that's another question.)
The critics of Calvinism might be bouncing off Paul's argument, found in Romans chapter 9, where he pulls back the curtain to give us a glimpse at the transcendent creator. In that argument, Paul likens God to a potter, making two pots, one for honorable use and one for dishonorable use.
What kind of pot is used honorably? Perhaps an exquisite vase, used to hold flowers or some other valuable item such as perfume or essential oils. What kind of pot is for dishonorable use? Perhaps a toilet, a place to store bodily waste or bloody rags.
The salient point is this. Each person on earth has been created to serve a unique purpose in history. Just as the pots are created for a unique purpose, some for honorable use and others for dishonorable use, individual people are created for a unique purpose.
Paul says that the potter makes both the vase and the toilet from the same lump of clay. This hints at the fact all human beings share one thing in common; we all stand condemned before a righteous judge. We are not all punished, however, because God has a different purpose for some human beings.
Now, in order to understand Paul's argument, we need to understand ourselves to be "the thing molded." When we think of creation, most people picture creation as an event, taking place in the very distant past, when God wound up the clockwork mechanism and let it begin. Paul, however, asserts that God creates each individual like a potter molding a pot, his hands gliding over our lives like the potter's hand gliding over the clay. He sets up this analogy to say this.
What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory?
Consider yourself to be a thing that God is molding. Our lives are being molded by the hands of God in order to make us pots, which serve one of two different purposes: demonstrate his wrath, or demonstrate his mercy.
Strange question.
Men are not "chosen" to go to hell.
Men are "chosen" to be with with God.
Those "not chosen" to be with God, are "not chosen", they are "rejected".
Similar in for example... Baseball.
Some men are "Chosen" for a team.
The others "are rejected", "Not Chosen".
Odd "IF", (uncertain) point of view.
I am Himself stated where He came from, and Expressly FOR WHAT He offered and Expressly WHO He made His OFFERING TO;
John 6:
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
THAT IS, WHAT "I am" OFFERED.
Absolutely NOTHING, CHANGES, His OFFERING.
Every single Individual Decides Whether or not TO ACCEPT His Offering.
IOW, "I Am's"...OFFERING STANDS AS IT IS.
You, along with EVERY other Individual, Can Accept OR Reject "I am's" OFfering.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
My answer is not in alignment with Calvinism, but would like to take a crack at it.
Foreknowledge --- He knows the future.
He draws all men to HIMSELF, but does not force anyone. He stands at the door and knocks like a polite Gentleman. If you don't open the door, He will not come in and sup with you.
Obviously many resist after the gospel has been shared many times with them throughout their lives and even if it has not, they are without excuse. (Rom. 1)
Many opportunities were given and they continued to say, NO THANK YOU. He knows who will ultimately reject Him. But what I can't figure out is, if this is true, how does the total number work out to be one third of the population? There are currently about 2.65 billion Christians, 1/3. That would imply intentional design, which would mean Calvin is right. ???
Here is a scenario: God chose Hitler to be a reprobate - before he was born. He knew what he would do and was already judged. That sounds fair to me. He allows evil for a purpose - so that we can understand what good is.
Honestly, it is above my pay grade, so I don't have the clearance.
Last edited:
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
Similar threads
