Calvinist Question

[Base12]

Matthew 23:15
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."

Psalms 139:15
"My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth."

Ephesians 4:9
"Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"

Isaiah 51:1
"Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged."

John 17:12
"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

 

[FHII]

1 Corinthians 15:22....As in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
The assumption is that God rejects when it is clear that God is in the Salvation business not the damnation business.
Did Jesus reject Judas?.....Judas condemned himself and what's more, he killed himself.
The good news is the message of Redemption just as the angels sang on Bethlehem's hills; for all men.

The position of Calvin on this point is in error.

Well, that's nice and all... But Jude 1:4 still says that certain men were before of old ordained to this condemnation. None of what you said negates this fact.

 

[FHII]

God did not arbitrarily fore-ordain anyone to condemnation...God had a reason, and that reason is explained in the scripture itself...
they were ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, denying God, and denying Jesus, therefore God fore-ordained people to condemnation because of sin in their lives.

When were they fore-ordained (as if the question doesn't answer itself)?

They were ordained (which is not simply knowing what they will do, it means to cause) before they were even born.

 

[CoreIssue]

Suddenly hearing Calvinist including freewill.

 

[Brakelite]

When were they fore-ordained (as if the question doesn't answer itself)?

They were ordained (which is not simply knowing what they will do, it means to cause) before they were even born.

And if you genuinely believe that, I am saddened that you should have such a low esteem of the character of God. Did not Jesus come to reveal the Father... Even the express image of His personality and character? When, in all of Jesus' ministry to men, did He ever hint that anyone was going to miss out on salvation on the basis of an unconditional predetermined decision that such a one would never be offered an opportunity of repentance?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

"He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end." (Ecclesiastes 3:11)

Predestination and Free Will are both biblical.

How that can be only God knows.

 

[Taken]

rejected by who?

Understand WHO Offers...
That IS God.

Understand WHO may or may Not Accept...
That IS man.

Understand WHO is ALL KNOWING...
That IS God.

God IS ALL KNOWING...WHAT a man WILL CHOOSE...BEFORE the man IS Naturally Born.
(It's the natural man, WHO does not KNOW, YET there IS an Offering, A Choice, Of What the man will choose.

Point Being the DIFFERENCE ...
Between WHAT God KNOWS, and WHAT a man KNOWS.

It is the man WHO MUST, FIRST CHOOSE God. THEN does a man KNOW his own Choice.

ThereAFTER, God ACCEPTS, the mans "TRUE Choice", from the mans HEARTS thought and confession.

The Understanding IS... God Already KNEW WHAT the mans Choice WOULD BE...and From the Beginning of Gods Creation; God
Prepared A PLACE FOR a man WHO Chooses God.
And
Prepared A PLACE FOR a man WHO Rejects God.

Many ARE CALLED. FEW ARE "CHOSEN" BY God....Meaning MANY WILL HEAR "ABOUT" God...YET "FEW" men WILL "CHOOSE" GOD.

And BY the SAME Consequence...
Many WILL HEAR "ABOUT" God....AND "MANY" will REJECT" God, AND THUS SHALL BE "REJECTED" BY GOD.

IF GOD simply Created mankind AND God Himself CHOSE WHO TO KEEP and WHO TO Destroy...."WITHOUT a mans opportunity TO CHOOSE GOD"... that WOULD Eliminate FREEWILL, and instead BE FORCED Belief...

Forcing ONE to Love you, IS NOT a TRUE LOVE.
God Loves ALL of His Creations.
Gods Created mankind - Has the option to LOVE God.
A man Reveals his Love of God, BY Believing IN HIM and Submitting TO His Word.

A man WHO chooses to Submit to God...thereafter IS Chosen BY God.

A man WHO chooses to Reject God...thereafter IS Rejected BY God.

1 Thes 1:
[4] Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

WHAT ABOUT THE MAN WHO...
MAKES NO CHOICE?

THERE IS an EXPRESS Understanding...

Matt 12:
[30] He that is not with me is against me...

THERE IS EXPRESS WARNING...
* No man KNOWS when shall be the moment of his physical Death.
(And a man Choosing God, MUST occur during the man physical LIFE)
* No man KNOWS the moment WHEN the Lord God Shall REDEEM those that have chosen Him, and He has chosen.
* A man WHO puts off Choosing...may LOSE his Offered Opportunity, to Be Saved.

Rev 1:
[3] Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

 

[CadyandZoe]

And if you genuinely believe that, I am saddened that you should have such a low esteem of the character of God. Did not Jesus come to reveal the Father... Even the express image of His personality and character? When, in all of Jesus' ministry to men, did He ever hint that anyone was going to miss out on salvation on the basis of an unconditional predetermined decision that such a one would never be offered an opportunity of repentance?

Actually, it takes a higher view of God to believe in preordination.

 

[friend of]

So if we bring damnation on ourselves it's our fault

but if we are saved it's all God's fault?

 

[justbyfaith]

And biblical predestination is for the perfection and glorification of the saints, never for salvation or damnation. God has ordained that those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ will be "conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom 8:29,30). If God were to pick and choose whom He would save, He would be violating His own Gospel and His own character.

So, if the saints are perfected and glorified, they are not saved?

Are you attempting to say that a person can be saved apart from being predestinated?

Because it would seem to me, that if predestination is for perfection and glorification, but not for salvation, that a man can be saved apart from predestination. Because he is not predestinated to salvation.

This assumes that a man can be saved apart from being perfected and glorified. For if predestination is only unto perfection and glorification, but not to salvation, then I can be saved apart from predestination. Because predestination is only unto perfection and glorification and not unto salvation. And therefore if I am saved but not perfected and glorified, it is not because I am predestinated.

 

[quietthinker]

Well, that's nice and all... But Jude 1:4 still says that certain men were before of old ordained to this condemnation. None of what you said negates this fact.

yeah, I know what it says FH11. One must look at it through the lens of Jesus....his name (character) Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever. Jesus is the defining interpretation of God. Jesus gives life and desires it for all men. God's character is vindicated (it is finished) in Jesus.

Satan was Universally seen as a liar ....it was Satan who maligned God ....it is Satan who says that God is arbitrary and selfish.

 

[Enoch111]

Because it would seem to me, that if predestination is for perfection and glorification, but not for salvation, that a man can be saved apart from predestination. Because he is not predestinated to salvation.

You seem to be confused. In His foreknowledge God knows exactly who will be saved and who will not. We are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God". Therefore the ones who are saved are predestined for perfection and glorification. Otherwise they could not enter Heaven. The perfected saints who have passed on will be resurrected and glorified. The ones who are alive will be perfected and receive immortal bodies, and also be glorified.

 

[Waiting on him]

so why did He create hell, where the majority of the human race is going to end up?

Is this biblical?

 

[justbyfaith]

so why did He create hell, where the majority of the human race is going to end up?

Is this biblical?

Most definitely (Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, Matthew 25:41, Matthew 25:46; Matthew 7:13-14).

 

[Waiting on him]

Most definitely (Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, Matthew 25:41, Matthew 25:46; Matthew 7:13-14).

So your God will eternally punish them, because they didn’t make the mental ascent as you did.

also is there a tree of life in hell, the reason I ask is because something sustains them?

 

[justbyfaith]

So your God will eternally punish them, because they didn’t make the mental ascent as you did.

also is there a tree of life in hell, the reason I ask is because something sustains them?

There is no food period in hell; while there is hunger there; and physical bodies.

They are subjects of eternal death; while they will have consciousness and conscious torment in that death (Luke 16:19-31).

 

[justbyfaith]

So your God will eternally punish them, because they didn’t make the mental ascent as you did.

also is there a tree of life in hell, the reason I ask is because something sustains them?

Are you coming from the perspective of a Mormon belief?

Because even the book of mormon speaks of eternal conscious torment in hell; if I remember correctly from my reading of it.

 

[FHII]

yeah, I know what it says FH11. One must look at it through the lens of Jesus....his name (character) Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever. Jesus is the defining interpretation of God. Jesus gives life and desires it for all men. God's character is vindicated (it is finished) in Jesus.

Satan was Universally seen as a liar ....it was Satan who maligned God ....it is Satan who says that God is arbitrary and selfish.

Well then please explain to me why Jude -- Jesus's servant -- didn't mean what he said.

 

[Waiting on him]

For dust you are, and to the ground you shall return.

 

[justbyfaith]

For dust you are, and to the ground you shall return.

Of course, our understanding of this doesn't nullify other scriptures (such as Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, Matthew 25:41, Matthew 25:46).