Calvinist Question

[amigo de christo]

So much simplier and of great joy when we stay in our bibles and avoid all this calvin and man indoctrination .
Oh just learning and growing in the Grace of GOD . Men sure have made such a simple walk so complicated .
Let us just learn our bibles and Follow the biblical Jesus and be learning and growing in the Grace of God .

 

[Waiting on him]

Of course, our understanding of this doesn't nullify other scriptures (such as Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, Matthew 25:41, Matthew 25:46).

Could indicate though, maybe a miss understanding?

 

[Waiting on him]

Of course, our understanding of this doesn't nullify other scriptures (such as Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, Matthew 25:41, Matthew 25:46).

Luke 17:21 KJV
[21] Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
I believe if we could ask brother Paul he’d say Jesus removed everything within him upon salvation, and cast it aside for men to burn up.

 

[quietthinker]

Well then please explain to me why Jude -- Jesus's servant -- didn't mean what he said.

It is assumed that prophecy means causation. This is not true. Prophecy announces what God already knows will unfold....it does not mean he causes it to unfold.

 

[justbyfaith]

Luke 17:21 KJV
[21] Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
I believe if we could ask brother Paul he’d say Jesus removed everything within him upon salvation, and cast it aside for men to burn up.

What doctrine are you attempting to purport?

Universalism?

Annihilationism?

What?

 

[Waiting on him]

What doctrine are you attempting to purport?

Universalism?

Annihilationism?

What?

I don’t assign myself to isms.

 

[FHII]

It is assumed that prophecy means causation. This is not true. Prophecy announces what God already knows will unfold....it does not mean he causes it to unfold.

Really?

Isaiah 46:9-10 KJV
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, [10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Ephesians 1:11-12 KJV
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

That sounds like "causation" to me! Do you know what DOES mean "to cause"? Words like ordained and declared.

I want to get back to something you said before:

 

[FHII]

One must look at it through the lens of Jesus..

Paul said he spoke in Christ's stead... In other words, he was speaking for Jesus and what he said was just what Jesus would've said. I believe this extends to Jude as well. Paul, Jude and Jesus are pretty good communicators. I think that when they say something, they mean it!

Therefore, if you want to see things "through the lens of Jesus", why would you do anything else beside listen to him and believe he is saying exactly what he meant? To do anything else is saying, "let me tell you why Jesus didn't really mean what he said".

 

[Renniks]

How can God punish anyone for being chosen to go to hell?

It only makes sense to committed calvinists!

 

[quietthinker]

Really?

Isaiah 46:9-10 KJV
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, [10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Ephesians 1:11-12 KJV
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

That sounds like "causation" to me! Do you know what DOES mean "to cause"? Words like ordained and declared.

I want to get back to something you said before:

Confusing cause and response or cause and prophecy makes God responsible for Lucifers rebellion....ie, Lucifer uses this argument to justify his rebellion/accusation ie 'God's way of running the show is tilted in his favour because he has the power to control everything therefore it is self interest (selfishness) that motivates God.'
The proof/evidence that this was a lie; a false accusation was the Jesus event....to the death. He would rather die than use force or stop loving.
This was not a pantomime, it was real. God took an unimaginable risk by taking on human flesh in its weakness.....and to the joy of the Universe, prevailed.

God gives life....Death is an enemy. God's words to the first couple were, 'if you eat of this tree you will surely die.' This prophecy did not cause them to die, it warned them of consequences.

The texts you have quoted have to do with the foreknowledge of God not his causation.

 

[CoreIssue]

It indeed cause them to die. Spiritual death means separation from God.

 

[Paul Christensen]

How can God punish anyone for being chosen to go to hell?

What Calvin actually teaches is that all humans since Adam are condemned already because of Adam's rebellion against God. God would be quite just and righteous if He had stood back and done nothing.

We have religious tree-huggers who go on about God being a God of love, and yet they ignore that He is a God of justice as well. They don't realise that sinners are saved because of God's unmerited mercy and grace, in that He sent His own Son to suffer and die on the Cross. Then He commissioned Gospel preachers by filling them with the Holy Spirit, giving them the ability to preach the Gospel with power.

Adam brought sin and death into the world through his disobedience and rebellion against God. Because of this, every action of human beings, even though morally good, is evil in His sight.

But God initiated His plan of salvation. The first step for humans is to believe the Gospel. That is why the Gospel is preached, so that people will believe it. Once someone believes the Gospel, it becomes the power of God that leads to their salvation.

If a person decides not to believe the Gospel, they remain lost and on the way to hell. God never has to send anyone to hell who is already on the way there anyway because of their disbelief of the Gospel.

Therefore at the judgment, no one can blame God for allowing anyone to be lost if they do not obey the Gospel. Even for those who have never heard the Gospel, the creation around the person would be evidence that there is a God who designed it all, and the awareness of that is built into every person's conscience. Therefore, if that person, in spite of seeing the creation around them continues to neglect seeking the God who designed it, has no one to blame but him or herself.

The bottom line is none of us have any right to be saved and to enter heaven. Some have the mistaken idea that God has some obligation to us and that He should bend over backwards to get us saved because we want to go to heaven. God is no respecter of persons, and there are no people with special rights to salvation over and above anyone else.

God chooses for salvation those who believe and obey the Gospel, period. Calvin taught that clearly. It is just that some religious tree-huggers insist on reading into Calvin what they think he taught, instead of what he actually taught. They are like the clay that tries to tell the Potter how to form them.

 

[Tong2020]

Well, that's nice and all... But Jude 1:4 still says that certain men were before of old ordained to this condemnation. None of what you said negates this fact.

Not if you make due diligence and go check out the Greek texts.

The Greek word translated “ordained” in the KJV comes from “prographó” which means to write before. Also, the context does not suggest nor support the sense of predestination there.

Tong
R2692

 

[Tong2020]

So if we bring damnation on ourselves it's our fault

but if we are saved it's all God's fault?

<<<if we are saved it’s all God’s fault?>>>

Isn’t that even an invalid question?

It’s God’s glory that we are saved by Him and that by grace through faith and not by our works or our effort or our doing. It’s by His grace.

Tong
R2693

 

[Truman]

It is my understanding that when one is thrown into the lake of fire, they cease to exist.

 

[Enoch111]

It is just that some religious tree-huggers insist on reading into Calvin what they think he taught, instead of what he actually taught.

There is no need to claim that Calvin did NOT teach the same concept of election as is found in the Westminster Confession of Faith. So here is what Calvin said:

"We shall never be clearly persuaded, as we ought to be, that our salvation flows from the wellspring of God’s free mercy until we come to know his eternal election, which illumines God’s grace by this contrast: that he does not indiscriminately adopt all into the hope of salvation but gives to some what he denies to others." (Institutes 3.21.1)

In other words, God elects some for salvation and others for damnation. And that is exactly what we find in the Westminster Confession.

But that contradicts the Gospel and the Bible and therefore is a damnable doctrine. God invites all humanity to be saved. Indeed God commands all men everywhere to repent, and He also commands all men to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The reason being that (1) He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance, and (2) God will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Calvin was essentially dishonest, in that even though he knew the truth, and even presented the truth in his commentaries, he still created a false gospel. All you have to do is go to Bible Hub and check out his commentary on John 1:29 (and few other similar passages).

 

[Tong2020]

We are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God".

Just would like to point out that foreknowledge there does not only refer to knowing future events but also the sense of “knowing” as knowing a person. The sense being like that of knowing father, mother, sister, brother, friend, loved ones.

Further, God’s election of people for salvation, not only is in accordance to foreknowledge, but is consistent with His nature and character. It could not be otherwise.

Tong
R2694

 

[Tong2020]

Confusing cause and response or cause and prophecy makes God responsible for Lucifers rebellion....ie, Lucifer uses this argument to justify his rebellion/accusation ie 'God's way of running the show is tilted in his favour because he has the power to control everything therefore it is self interest (selfishness) that motivates God.'
The proof/evidence that this was a lie; a false accusation was the Jesus event....to the death. He would rather die than use force or stop loving.
This was not a pantomime, it was real. God took an unimaginable risk by taking on human flesh in its weakness.....and to the joy of the Universe, prevailed.

God gives life....Death is an enemy. God's words to the first couple were, 'if you eat of this tree you will surely die.' This prophecy did not cause them to die, it warned them of consequences.

The texts you have quoted have to do with the foreknowledge of God not his causation.

<<<God's words to the first couple were, 'if you eat of this tree you will surely die.' This prophecy did not cause them to die, it warned them of consequences.>>>

More than it is God’s words, it is a commandment to them. In the commandment, is included the reason why God gave them that commandment, that is, if they eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they will surely die. And when they ate, that is exactly what happened. By this we see that death means more than what we commonly know it is. That is for another topic I think.

Tong
R2695

 

[Tong2020]

What Calvin actually teaches is that all humans since Adam are condemned already because of Adam's rebellion against God. God would be quite just and righteous if He had stood back and done nothing.

We have religious tree-huggers who go on about God being a God of love, and yet they ignore that He is a God of justice as well. They don't realise that sinners are saved because of God's unmerited mercy and grace, in that He sent His own Son to suffer and die on the Cross. Then He commissioned Gospel preachers by filling them with the Holy Spirit, giving them the ability to preach the Gospel with power.

Adam brought sin and death into the world through his disobedience and rebellion against God. Because of this, every action of human beings, even though morally good, is evil in His sight.

But God initiated His plan of salvation. The first step for humans is to believe the Gospel. That is why the Gospel is preached, so that people will believe it. Once someone believes the Gospel, it becomes the power of God that leads to their salvation.

If a person decides not to believe the Gospel, they remain lost and on the way to hell. God never has to send anyone to hell who is already on the way there anyway because of their disbelief of the Gospel.

Therefore at the judgment, no one can blame God for allowing anyone to be lost if they do not obey the Gospel. Even for those who have never heard the Gospel, the creation around the person would be evidence that there is a God who designed it all, and the awareness of that is built into every person's conscience. Therefore, if that person, in spite of seeing the creation around them continues to neglect seeking the God who designed it, has no one to blame but him or herself.

The bottom line is none of us have any right to be saved and to enter heaven. Some have the mistaken idea that God has some obligation to us and that He should bend over backwards to get us saved because we want to go to heaven. God is no respecter of persons, and there are no people with special rights to salvation over and above anyone else.

God chooses for salvation those who believe and obey the Gospel, period. Calvin taught that clearly. It is just that some religious tree-huggers insist on reading into Calvin what they think he taught, instead of what he actually taught. They are like the clay that tries to tell the Potter how to form them.

You sound to know a lot about what Calvin preached and taught. Now let’s go to what God preached and taught in scriptures.

<<<God chooses for salvation those who believe and obey the Gospel, period.>>>

That sounds good. But is that really how it os or what? I have a few questions for your consideration.

Is God’s choosing of people for salvation depend on the will of man? Or does it depend on His will, nature and character?

What does God say about the fallen man’s heart, his heart from where his will is defined?

What does scriptures say of the fallen state of mankind?

Now, consider the election of Abraham. Before God chose Abraham, was Abraham a believer or a worshiper of idols? Some would appeal to the power of God to look into the future and point out that God saw that Abraham will believe and on that basis have chosen Abraham. However, that is not what scriptures tells us concerning God’s choosing of Abraham, but is just what they want to believe. Besides, while God have power to know ahead or know the future, God have the authority and power to use or not use that power, as He wills and pleases. Don’t you believe that, if you have already considered that?

In my reading and study of scriptures, God’s choosing of people for salvation is according to what is consistent to His will, nature and character, to the praise and glory of His Holy Name and for His good purpose and pleasure.

Tong
R2696

 

[Tong2020]

It is my understanding that when one is thrown into the lake of fire, they cease to exist.

The lake of fire is portrayed to be a place of punishment, not a place of non existence, not a place where none will exist or cease to exist, but a place where wicked people exist, serving their sentence of punishment for the sins they have committed.

Tong
R2697

 

[Enoch111]

Further, God’s election of people for salvation, not only is in accordance to foreknowledge, but is consistent with His nature and character. It could not be otherwise.

Fortunately (or unfortunately for you) you do not have any Scriptures to support these ideas. On the other hand there are dozens of Scriptures which clearly assert that God wants ALL MEN (people) to be saved. Let's take one verse which is actually the recorded words of Christ, and another which is the recorded words of John the Baptizer:

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:17)

This corresponds to John 1:29: The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Since just these two verse TOTALLY DEMOLISH the Calvinistic narrative of election for salvation, what Calvinists will do DISHONESTLY is try to change the meaning of the word "world". But the concordances and lexicons will not allow that. "The world" means the world of humanity, the human race (and none of the other meanings).

Strong's Concordance
kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Definition: order, the world
Usage: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

God sent His Son into the world to save the world, therefore the Lamb of God took away the sin of the world. Does this mean that everyone will be automatically saved? Not at all. God commands all men everywhere to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. But since all will not obey the Gospel, broad is the way to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat.