Can a tare become saved?

[CadyandZoe]

Ok, so how does the sequence of events happen with a future millennium? Do you see the dead in Christ rising first a separate event than the tares being gather and bundled first? I have a hard time believing the Amil view of having two firsts at the last day.

Yes, the dead in Christ rise first. The tares are gathered at a different time.

 

[Behold]

The water baptism in churches is not equivalent to being born again of water and the Spirit (John 3:5).

In the "cult of Mary", you have "baptismal regeneration", and so, this Cult teaches that apart from water, there is no salvation.
So, there are many smaller satellite offshoots of this cult that will teach that Acts 2:38 (repent and be water baptized) is salvation.
Its not.

But that doesn't somehow make what he says about the gifts of the Spirit unimportant to any degree.

The 9 spiritual gifts are important, literally.
However, there are denominations that are built on obsession with the "gifts", so, that is an out of theological balance situation.
That is no differet then the "prosperity gospel" being the core of some Pastor's Ministry.

What we are supposed to do, is learn Paul's doctrine, as this is "church doctrine".
He received it from Jesus, by revelaiton(s)... and this is why most of the epistles in a NT are written by Paul.
Currently we are in the end times, before the Trib starts, and this deep studying of Paul's doctrine, is not happening within the majority of Christianity for the last 100 yrs.
There has been a worldwide revolution of the message of "God's Grace" for 15+ yrs.... and that is heartening..
Most Contemporary Christians are stuck in Hebrews 6:1, as their discipleship, ..............because they have not spent necessary time with Paul's doctrine.

Their Bible remains under lock and key, until the person studies Paul's doctrine.

that faith is of God,

God does not cause you to have faith in Christ.
He requires it from you, and then YOUR "faith is counted by God, as righteousness".

What is faith?
"substance of things hoped for".

A.) Trust.

with this statement, you seem to be affirming "OSAS," no?

Im affirming that Jesus who saved you, keeps you saved.

Legalistic Heretics have redefined this as "OSAS"....and that started in Paul's Day.
Its not a new concept.
JUDE wrote about it. He said.....(paraphase) these commandment worshiping law keeping religious zealots created a "flip" a "spin" on God's Grace, whereby they deceive a Chrisitan into the idea that if they believe that Jesus keeps them saved then this is teaching they can live like the devil because they will always be saved.

What Paul teaches about this is....>"Use not your Liberty, (the knowledge of eternal security) to go out and choose to do some works of the flesh"..

Right, but Who is the Author of that trust,

Every person has the "measure of Faith".....as Paul teaches in Romans.

But not everyone is going to place THEIR """measure of faith"", in Christ.

Some place it in The Buddha.
Some Place it in their bank account.
Some Place their faith in Muhammed.
Some, place their faith in Mary Baker Eddy or L.Ron Hubbard.
Some place their faith in Science.

So, where we place our faith, determines if we die under this eternal "wrath" situation or not.

John 3:36

Absolutely agree. This is exactly what James calls a dead faith in chapter 2 of his letter.

There is dead faith.

Backsliders have it.

However, there is no such thing as dead salvation......and that is what Legalists can't understand.

See.........Salvation is JESUS< and He's not dead, and He's IN the born again, as "Christ in you, the hope of Glory"...even if your faith is "shipwrecked".

"God who began salvation in the born again, will Himself be FAITHFUL to complete it"..., even if the born again Christian, loses their faith, and goes back into the world.........as you find with one of Paul's converts...."DEMAS".

I would say that all of us, at least to some small degree, think that we have to keep ourselves saved,

You can have that opinion, but you are not talking about me.
I place no faith in ME, as im not the Savior.
My faith is that Jesus has dealt with ALL my sin, because "Jesus is the one time ETERNAL Sacrifice for Sin"..... and now im "made righteous" having become "the Righteousness of God in Christ.", because of the "imputed righteousness of Christ".

So, once sin is dealt with forever by The Cross of Christ, then that ends the only thing that keeps us from eternal spiritual union with God.

Im a :

"heir of God" and a "Joint heir with Jesus".
Im the "Temple of the Holy Spirit"
Im "seated in heavenly places, "in Christ".
Im IN the KOG, being "translated from darkness to LIGHT"...
In "ONE with GOD".... born again.

All CHRISTians are this, who are born again., and we have "passed from death to life" and can't go to hell and can't lose our salvation..

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 the dead in Christ shall rise first then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up. In Matthew 13:30 both grow together until the harvest then the tares are gathered first and bundled then the wheat is gathered into the barn.

In the parable of the tares the tares are gathered first and bundled by the angels in the field, which you have stated is the world or entire planet. Both tares and wheat grow together in the field or planet unto that harvest. From Matthew 13:40 we know it happens at the end of this age, not after this age is already over.

Would this be the sequence of events for Amil, 1)the tares are gathered and bundled, 2)the dead in Christ rise, 3)those who remain are caught up, 4)tares put in the fire, and 5)wheat put in the barn?

No, not in my Amil view, at least. I don't want to speak for all Amils on this, especially since some Amills are partial preterists who might think this parable relates to 70 AD like you do.

To make things more simple, I'm going to just refer to people as either saved or unsaved instead of using various terms to describe them that could cause confusion.

So, in my view, there are multiple separations of the saved and unsaved (wheat and tares, sheep and goats, righteous and wicked, etc.). The first one occurs when 1 Thess 4:14-5:3 and Revelation 14:14-20 happen. At that time when Jesus has arrived "in the air", the bodies of the dead in Christ are resurrected and, together with those who are alive and remain are caught up to meet Christ in the air. And they will have been changed to have immortal bodies at that point. So, that describes 1 Thess 14:16-17, Rev 14:14-16 and Matt 24:31 (Mark 13:27). Immediately after that, Jesus destroys all living unbelievers on the earth (1 Thess 5:2-3, Rev 14:17-20, etc.) and that is followed by the resurrection of all unbelievers.

At that point it is the time of judgment which I believe occurs in the realm of eternity because I just can't imagine Jesus having to judge billions of people in real time. That would seem like torture for Him and why would He put Himself through something like that which would take who knows how long to complete?

Anyway, as we can see in Matthew 25:31-46, all people are placed before Christ's throne at first. The saved and lost are already separated at that point, but side by side before the throne. Whether this is how it will literally be is questionable, but it's portrayed in a way that we can understand. So, after they are placed before the throne, the saved (sheep) are moved to His right hand side while the unsaved (goats) are moved to His left hand. Then the judgment takes place with everyone giving an account of themselves in relation to how they treated the needy and such.

Okay, now here is when I believe the harvest that the parable is talking about actually takes place. Remember, at the harvest is when the tares are cast into the fire. No one has been cast into the fire yet at this point since everyone needs to be judged first. This is when I believe the tares (unsaved) are gathered and bound in bundles to be burned (Matt 13:30), which, when explaining the meaning of the parable, Jesus describes as the tares being "gathered and burned in the fire" (Matt 13:40). Meanwhile, while the tares (unsaved) are being cast into the fire, the wheat (saved) are in His barn (His kingdom) and they then inherit His kingdom in it fullness free of sin and death in the new heavens and new earth for eternity.

So, I think what I described here is a way to explain it all without making any of the verses contradict each other.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, the dead in Christ rise first. The tares are gathered at a different time.

What different time exactly? Who do you think are the goats that are gathered and judged when Jesus comes with His angels (Matthew 25:31-46)? Same as the tares?

 

[PinSeeker]

In the "cult of Mary", you have "baptismal regeneration", and so, this Cult teaches that apart from water, there is no salvation.
So, there are many smaller satellite offshoots of this cult that will teach that Acts 2:38 (repent and be water baptized) is salvation.
Its not.

Yes, but while unfortunate, this is irrelevant to me and you, right?

The 9 spiritual gifts are important, literally.

Sure they are. Absolutely.

However, there are denominations that are built on obsession with the "gifts", so, that is an out of theological balance situation. That is no differet then the "prosperity gospel" being the core of some Pastor's Ministry.

Okay, not sure what you mean here; this too is irrelevant as it concerns this conversation between me and you.

What we are supposed to do, is learn Paul's doctrine, as this is "church doctrine". He received it from Jesus, by revelaiton(s)... and this is why most of the epistles in a NT are written by Paul.

Sure. It's God's Word. All of it is important (to say the least). It is all God-breathed and profitable for... well, you know: 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

Currently we are in the end times, before the Trib starts...

Ah, so now you're crossing over into eschatology... Yes, we are in the end times, I agree. But the time of tribulation is now... <smile> As Jesus said to His disciples ~ and to us by extension ~ "In the world you will have tribulation" (John 16:33). Now, there will be ~ near the end of this age ~ a time of "great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be," as Jesus said in Matthew 24:21, and we may be very, very close to that, even by our standard of nearness/closeness. But we are in this time of tribulation, which is synonymous/concurrent with the end times.

God does not cause you to have faith in Christ.

Hmm, okay, now you're in the area of soteriology... Faith is God's assurance (Hebrews 11:1), so we cannot possibly have it unless He gives it. We can hope for eternal life, but we cannot be assured of it unless God Himself gives us that assurance. And we cannot have this conviction unless the Holy Spirit works it in us.

We cannot manufacture this faith in ourselves; if we assure ourselves of anything, then what kind of real assurance is that except an empty assurance at best? But, yes, once that assurance is given to us, then yes, it is ours and we can rejoice in it.

Now if we want to use the word 'cause,' we should understand that God does indeed, by giving us a new heart ~ in other words putting a new spirit in us, even His Holy Spirit ~ cause us to walk in His statutes and obey His rules:

"I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules... I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses" (Ezekiel 36:26-29).​

He requires it from you, and then YOUR "faith is counted by God, as righteousness".

He "requires it" in the sense that if we don't have it we are still of this world, and our father the devil. But again, He's the One Who gives it to us. And this faith ~ God's assurance ~ is the vehicle through which we are saved... saved being once and for all, and being saved through this time of tribulation, and will be saved at the day of Christ.

What is faith? "substance of things hoped for".

Also translated as 'assurance.' Both are correct, and in either case God gives/provides it.

I'm affirming that Jesus who saved you, keeps you saved.

Okay, good; me, too.

Legalistic Heretics have redefined this as "OSAS"....and that started in Paul's Day. Its not a new concept. JUDE wrote about it. He said.....(paraphase) these commandment worshiping law keeping religious zealots created a "flip" a "spin" on God's Grace, whereby they deceive a Chrisitan into the idea that if they believe that Jesus keeps them saved then this is teaching they can live like the devil because they will always be saved. What Paul teaches about this is....>"Use not your Liberty, (the knowledge of eternal security) to go out and choose to do some works of the flesh"..

Well, in the case of unbelievers. they never had this faith, even though they may have seemed to for a time. And yes, for Christians, because we have received God's salvific grace is not some sort of "license to sin"... does not, in Paul's words, then mean that we should sin all the more so that grace will abound. Right.

Every person has the "measure of Faith".....as Paul teaches in Romans.

Only Christians have any measure of saving faith. Yes, in Romans 12:3, Paul is writing to Christians in Rome in saying, "For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned." But then immediately, starting with verse 4, there, he says, "For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness."

But not everyone is going to place THEIR """measure of faith"", in Christ.

Christians will, and do.

Some place it in The Buddha. Some Place it in their bank account. Some Place their faith in Muhammed. Some, place their faith in Mary Baker Eddy or L.Ron Hubbard. Some place their faith in Science.

Right, but none of these is the faith given by God. What did Peter say when Jesus asked him, "who do you say that I am?" Well, he said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God," right? And then what did Jesus say? He said ~ as you know, I'm sure ~ "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven," (Matthew 16, Mark 8, Luke 9). And again I point to Paul's words in Ephesians 2, "(God,) even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:5-8).

So, where we place our faith, determines if we die under this eternal "wrath" situation or not.

Absolutely. Agreed.

There is dead faith.

Sure there is. All unbelievers have it. They assure themselves of their "goodness" in all kinds of ways. Sure.

...there is no such thing as dead salvation......and that is what Legalists can't understand.

Well, okay, but again, this is irrelevant as far as this conversation between you and me goes.

To be continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

Continued from above...

See.........Salvation is JESUS...

Absolutely. Yes, I see. I was blind, but now I see. See what I did there? <smile>

"God who began salvation in the born again, will Himself be FAITHFUL to complete it"...

Philippians 1:6. Yes, absolutely.

, even if the born again Christian, loses their faith, and goes back into the world...

But if this person is born again, he or she will not really lose his or her faith and go back into the world ~ though it may seem like it to him or her for a time ~ because the Spirit will maintain it in us. We are kept in the power of God and will ~ not "might" ~ be raised up on the last day.

You can have that opinion, but you are not talking about me. I place no faith in ME, as im not the Savior.

Okay, well, great! But you have said in this conversation ~ and maybe now have changed your... tune... ~ that you manufacture saving faith in yourself. If one does this, it may be inadvertent, but he or she is either assigning responsibility for your salvation to him/herself, in which case he/she is his/her own "savior," or that his/her faith is in his/her faith (rather than in Jesus) or both. Again, I know very well you don't mean to.

My faith is that Jesus has dealt with ALL my sin, because "Jesus is the one time ETERNAL Sacrifice for Sin"..... and now im "made righteous" having become "the Righteousness of God in Christ.", because of the "imputed righteousness of Christ".

GREAT!!! Me, too.

So, once sin is dealt with forever by The Cross of Christ, then that ends the only thing that keeps us from eternal spiritual union with God.

Well, we still sin, right? I mean, like Paul, because we are not yet glorified, we still sin, at least from time to time. We still do the things we know we ought not to do, and we do not do the things we know we should do (Romans 7). So, then, thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord, right? As John says, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us," but "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:8-9).

Im a : "heir of God" and a "Joint heir with Jesus". Im the "Temple of the Holy Spirit" Im "seated in heavenly places, "in Christ". Im IN the KOG, being "translated from darkness to LIGHT"... In "ONE with GOD".... born again.

GREAT!!! Me, too.

All CHRISTians are this, who are born again., and we have "passed from death to life" and can't go to hell and can't lose our salvation.

Absolutely. Good, so we agree. Good. Fair enough?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You purportedly worship God, but you deny that Jesus is God, making yourself an enemy of God.

Really? The one who makes himself an enemy of God is the one who breaks the first Commandment….Look it up…
Exodus 20:3….
”You shall have no other gods before [or besides] Me.”…..

Can you tell me where I will find a triune god who was worshipped by the Jews? The Jewish Shema recited by them often, claimed….from Deuteronomy 6:4….
“Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God [is] one Jehovah”. (YLT)

From that scripture, can you categarically state that the the Jews ever believed in a triune god? One that could be in three places at once, talk to each other, know things the others don’t, and could exercise a will different from his other selves?

I cannot find a single Scripture that clearly states with no ambiguity that Jesus, was anything other than “the son of God”, or was in any way, equal to his Father, but begotten by his Father….who was also his God. (John 20:17)…even in heaven (Rev 3:12)

John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

How about some modern English that we can all understand…..and in context.

John. 5:19-23…..ESV…
”So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. “(ESV)

I’m sure you posted that verse to back up your belief….but seen in context, and in modern English, it doesn’t say what you suggest at all. The son is always subservient to his God and Father. He “can do nothing of his own accord”.

See the word “honor” there? It’s not worship because the very same word is used in the 10 Commandments where it says to “honor your father and mother”.
We honor Jesus Christ as “the son of God” which is all he ever called himself.

By denying His deity, you do not honor the Son of God and therefore do not honor God the Father, either. You do not honor Him by saying He was not before Abraham and is not "I am" (Exodus 3:14)

Since Christ never claimed “deity” but rather “divinity” or having a divine origin, that is in keeping with the definition of “theos” in Greek.
Strongs gives as its primary definition of “theos” (god)…

1. “a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities”

Jesus certainly fits that definition without being a “deity”……something not mentioned by him at all.

Calling Jesus “theos” doesn’t make him God (with a capital “G”) otherwise he would be identified by the definite article “ho” (THE) indicating Yahweh, but God himself called human judges in Israel “gods” (“theos”) its the same word, but no one believes that human judges were actual “gods”.…do they? (John 10:31-36)

Jesus is never addressed that way…..in fact collectively the apostles identified their “one God” as
“the Father”…..Jesus was their “Lord”, but not their God. “Lord“ is a title, like “Sir”. (1 Cor 8:5-6)

And if you look up Exodus 3:14-15 in the Jewish Tanakh, you will find that God’s name never was “I Am”…

14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"		ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:
15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.		טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

Who is “The Lord God” there?….the divine name is there in the Hebrew text…יְהֹוָ֞ה…..Yahweh…Jehovah.
So, whose name was to be mentioned throughout Israel’s generations?

m". God said "I am that I am" and Jesus definitely said what He did to make people think of that.

Are you sure?….Jesus was answering a question about his age, not his status as a god.
John 8:58 has no connection to Exodus 3:14-15…..at all.

If God never said “I Am” was his name, then “I Will Be What I Will Be” conveys something deeper than just his existence…which is something the Jews already knew.
He was indicating what he would “Be” or “Become” to them, as he demonstrated to Pharaoh.

What the Jews asked Jesus was a past tense question, and Jesus gave them a past tense answer.
Most Bibles translate “eimi“ as “I am”, which makes no grammatical sense in Jesus’ reply, yet a little research will show that “eimi” can also mean “I was”…IOW….Jesus was telling the Jews that he existed before Abraham…..which was true……but inconvenient when one is trying to support a trinity.

Strongs: “εἰμί eimí, i-mee'; the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):—am, have been, × it is I, was.”

What does the context show?