Can a tare become saved?

[Scott Downey]

No one is taught to know the lord by any man. We are taught to know Him by the Spirit of God, there is no other way.
Man teaches errors and lies. Everyone should be able to see that, see what has happened through all time and history regarding the mystery of Christ.

John 6
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who [i]has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

Hebrews 8
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.

Galatians 1:12
For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:17
that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,

Ephesians 3 New King James Version
1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles
2 if indeed you have heard of the [a]dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,
3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already,
4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),
5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:

6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

Purpose of the Mystery​

8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the [b]fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things [c]through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the [d]manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the [e]principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him. 13 Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

Appreciation of the Mystery​

14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father [f]of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, 21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

 

[Behold]

Hmmm... "not possible to misunderstand The Cross of Christ and God's Grace and not be a Legalistic Heretic..." That's... quite a mouthful... <smile>. I disagree. All that's needed to be "actually a Christian" is faith as a mustard seed.

Actually you have to be born again to "be a Christian".

You always leave this out becaue you dont seem to realize it.

That's not a good sign.

No one in this life is perfect in knowledge;

Paul says that we can have perfect knowledge of God and doctrine, and this is required.
This is "end game" Discipleship.

And once there, Paul says that this believer is this one......."as many as be PERFECT".

Being what we call "legalistic" does not necessarily mean that person is not a Christian,

Legalism is found in unbelievers as......>"im as good as you, Mr Christians, so If God will accept you, He'll take me".

And within Christianity........Legalsim is found as .....>>"here is what im trying to DO, or keep from doing, to try to STAY SAVED"...

See, the (Christian) Legalist is trying to STAY SAVED....they are trying to keep from losing their Salvation, and that is how you spot the Legalist.

There are folks on here who have their soteriology quite wrong, but are still Christians.

And there are people on any Christian Forum, who could not explain what Jesus "finished " on the Cross, and who talk about sin and Law and OSAS, and keeping commandments... and are as lost as any fallen angel,..... while they post verses and talk about water baptism and sin, and confessing it.

You sound a bit puffed up, Behold.

I teach Paul's doctrine.
You dont know what this is, and that does not make me "puffed up", that simply reveals you just a very weak student of the word..
Nothing new.

 

[Brakelite]

It was part of the law which applied to no other nations. Please find me a Scripture where Christians are instructed to observe the Sabbath.

The Sabbath was made for man, not Jews. Established before sin, therefore a memorial of creation first, and of redemption second. Never was it a shadow of something in the future.
Your asked for a scripture pertaining to practise?

“He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. ”
1 John 2:6 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

“And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. ”
Luke 4:16 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

“42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. 44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. ”
Acts 13:42-44 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

Your experience is yours to respond to as you wish. Yet all those who claim to be “born again” have had different experiences, and it has not drawn them together at all, because you all support different truths. (1 Cor 1:10) where is the unity? The “born again” are as divided as everyone else.

They are united in their relationship with Jesus. Doctrine is not what saves us. The blood of Christ saves us, and our relationship with Jesus sustains us. When doctrine affects our relationship, God will correct those that are His if they are in danger of being lost. God is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance.

Please do not say things like this that are not true. There are MANY things that are different between Jehovah's Witnesses and "the majority of Christendom" or should I say "Non-Seventh day Adventists?". Is that what you really mean? Anyway, "the majority of Christendom" believes that Jesus is God and JWs do not. That's a HUGE difference. The majority of Christendom believes that Jesus's death paid for our sins and not that we pay for our own sins by our own deaths like JWs believe. I could go on and on with the differences between JWs and "the majority of Christendom".

I understand the differences. I was talking about those similarities they share with Christianity.

Just out of curiosity, are you an Seventh Day Adventist, Brakelite?
Do you subscribe to all of their doctrines?

I am. And yes, all doctrines except one...but as it was first accepted by SDA pioneers, not as it is worded today.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So, in Matthew 13:38 Jesus described the tares as being the children of the wicked one (the evil). I showed how John described all unsaved sinners as being children of the devil in 1 John 3:8-10. So, from a real time perspective someone who is currently a child of the devil (an unsaved sinner) obviously can repent and become saved and a child of the kingdom (wheat) instead. But, from God's perspective the person who ends up being a child of the kingdom even after previously being a child of the devil is counted as wheat.

So, it makes sense that we should look at the parable from that perspective instead of from a temporal real time perspective or else it can cause confusion since the parable gives no indication of the tares being able to turn into wheat despite the fact that children of the devil can repent and become children of the kingdom.

Well you can use your sense any way you want. but God selected us from the foundation of the world. I see nothing in the writing of infallible Scripture (oops I am speaking of the normal, usual way of understanding words again) that says god turns tartes to wheat. He said the enemy sows the tares

Jesus went to seek the lost sheep, not lost goats to turn them into sheep.

The children of God are: 1. foreknown, 2. predestioned, 3. selected before creation, 4. set apart from the womb.

Tares are tares and wheat is wheat. You can rationalize any way you wish, but Jesus said the tares were sown by the enemy. He never implied tares could turn to wheat, but they were to gorw and gathered to be burned.

 

[PinSeeker]

Actually you have to be born again to "be a Christian".

Absolutely.

You always leave this out...

Absolutely not. The only reason I might "leave it out" is that it's a given, central to the Christian faith. I do think, though, that there are a few Nicodemuses on this board, and that's unfortunate. But yes, Jesus did say, "unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God... Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’" (John 3:5-7).

becaue you dont seem to realize it. That's not a good sign.

LOL! See directly above.

Paul says that we can have perfect knowledge of God and doctrine, and this is required.

And what would you use from what Paul (or any other writer of any part of the Bible) to back this up? I'm not sure if I said this before to you or not, but Paul <smile> says:

"Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed.... there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, Who apportions to each one individually as He wills." (1 Corinthians 12:1-11)​

So, obviously, we Christians are not all gifted by the Spirit to the same degree in any one of these things, including knowledge. But this is by design... by the Designer, of course... and for the common good, meaning, though we do differ in degree in these gifts of the Spirit, we have each other to help one another and therefore to build one another up in the Lord ~ one of God's great gifts is that He gave us each other for this very purpose. As Solomon puts it, "iron sharpens iron... one man sharpens another" (Proverbs 27:17).

Legalism is found in unbelievers as......>"im as good as you, Mr Christians, so If God will accept you, He'll take me".

Hmmm... I wouldn't call that legalism. Maybe something along the lines of blindness... Or at least a terrible underestimation of the breadth and gravity of sin...

See, the (Christian) Legalist is trying to STAY SAVED....they are trying to keep from losing their Salvation, and that is how you spot the Legalist.

Sure. And to condemn other believers ~ as if they could really do that anyway ~ for not doing what they think necessary to earn/keep salvation. Sure.

And there are people on any Christian Forum, who could not explain what Jesus "finished " on the Cross...

Sure. Unfortunate, but true. But even this does not mean, necessarily, that they are not Christians. Even born again Christians... <chuckles> ...as if there is any other kind of Christian... <smile>

... and are as lost as any fallen angel,...

Yeah, I wouldn't say that. Maybe, but not necessarily.

I teach Paul's doctrine.

Hmmm, well, good. <smile> Or, at least that you would strive to; yes, that's good. Because ultimately, it's not really Paul's, right? I mean, he wrote what he wrote, and it's all true, but... well... Whose (capital 'W') Word (capital 'W') is it? Right? Even Paul himself doesn't take credit for it...

You dont know what this is...

In... your opinion.

...and that does not make me "puffed up"...

The very fact that you are reacting the way you are is evidence of it.

, that simply reveals you just a very weak student of the word..

In... your opinion. But as is evident from the very opening of your post above on, you're mistaken about me.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Behold]

You must be born again.’" (John 3:5-7).

And being (born again) = that is not water baptism.

"Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed.... there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit;

You posted similar in the last post.

So, obviously, we Christians are not all gifted by the Spirit to the same degree in any one of these things, including knowledge.

You are erroneously equating the 9 spiritual gifts, (Paul's teaching) ..with "doctrine for the church" that every born again believer is to learn from Paul's Doctrine.
Learning about the 9 Gifts of the Spirit, are a very small part of Paul's Theology-Doctrine, that real Christians, are to learn.

Hmmm... I wouldn't call that legalism.

It does not matter what you "call it".
And once you understand that if a person believes they can lose their salvation, then this proves they have no TRUST In Christ, to keep them saved.
And that is No Faith in Christ at all......that Paul defines as "fallen from Grace".

See, there is Trust in Christ to keep you saved, that is REAL FAITH, and then there is trust in anything else to try to stay saved, that is false faith.
False faith, is always legalistic, because its based on SELF Righteousness, vs "Christ's Righteousness".

Sure. Unfortunate, but true. But even this does not mean, necessarily, that they are not Christians. Even born again Christians... <chuckles> ...as if there is any other kind of Christian... <smile>

As i told you before, its Christians most of all who are Legalistic.........who become so.
See, noone on the day they Trusted in Christ, believes they have to keep themseslves saved.
But later, they begin to beliieve this, and that is when their legalism is born that will soon replaces any type of real faith in Christ.

what he wrote, and it's all true, but... well... Whose (capital 'W') Word (capital 'W') is it? Right? Even Paul himself doesn't take credit for it...

Paul told all Christians to "be a follower of ME, as i follow Christ", and that means.......lifestyle, ministry, and doctrine.

You've not learned this yet, and thats not something to "smile" about, actually.

In... your opinion.

I dont post theological opinions.
I only teach "Pauline Theology".

The very fact that you are reacting the way you are is evidence of it.

The evidence is, that if you accuse me falsely, you get corrected on the forum.
Its happening a lot in our discussion, so far.
Nothing new. @PinSeeker

But as is evident from the very opening of your post above on, you're mistaken about me.

Oh, im not mistaken about you, little one.
Not this time, and not months ago, when we had a similar discussion.

See you there.

 

[grafted branch]

Yes, one of believers and one of unbelievers. That lines up with the parable of the wheat as the wheat represent the people of the kingdom and the tares represent the people of the devil. Why do you ask?

In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 the dead in Christ shall rise first then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up. In Matthew 13:30 both grow together until the harvest then the tares are gathered first and bundled then the wheat is gathered into the barn.

In the parable of the tares the tares are gathered first and bundled by the angels in the field, which you have stated is the world or entire planet. Both tares and wheat grow together in the field or planet unto that harvest. From Matthew 13:40 we know it happens at the end of this age, not after this age is already over.

Would this be the sequence of events for Amil, 1)the tares are gathered and bundled, 2)the dead in Christ rise, 3)those who remain are caught up, 4)tares put in the fire, and 5)wheat put in the barn?

BTW if anyone else wants to give their opinion on what the sequence looks like, I would be interested in looking at it.

 

[Scott Downey]

In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 the dead in Christ shall rise first then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up. In Matthew 13:30 both grow together until the harvest then the tares are gathered first and bundled then the wheat is gathered into the barn.

In the parable of the tares the tares are gathered first and bundled by the angels in the field, which you have stated is the world or entire planet. Both tares and wheat grow together in the field or planet unto that harvest. From Matthew 13:40 we know it happens at the end of this age, not after this age is already over.

Would this be the sequence of events for Amil, 1)the tares are gathered and bundled, 2)the dead in Christ rise, 3)those who remain are caught up, 4)tares put in the fire, and 5)wheat put in the barn?

BTW if anyone else wants to give their opinion on what the sequence looks like, I would be interested in looking at it.

My opinion is all of that happens real quick.
Angels have jobs to do and they do not delay in carrying out orders from Christ.
Just for a quick thought on it.

The separation of the just and the unjust happen at about the same time. This like a sorting process
Similarly worded in another parable of the dragnet
John the Baptist described it also in John 3

Tare Parable, gather tares, is technically first
30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”
******************
Now consider also Luke 17 about the end, the return of Christ, He says

Expanded Bible for a change who is gathered first? The wicked are taken away to judgment, they are killed and fed to vultures. Meaning it is a very final judgment, no coming back from it.

Just a graphic representation of what happens so as to not confuse, the wicked are killed, the righteous remain with Christ

When Jesus, the Son of Man, Comes Again​

22 Then Jesus said to ·his followers [the disciples], “The time will come when you will ·want very much [long] to see one of the days of the Son of Man [C the full revelation of the kingdom at Jesus’ return]. But you will not see it. 23 People will say to you, ‘Look, ·there he is [or over there]!’ or, ‘Look, ·here he is [or over here]!’ ·Stay where you are [L Don’t leave/go out]; don’t go away and ·search [pursue; chase after].

24 “For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so ·it will be when the Son of Man comes again [L will be the Son of Man in his day].[a] 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by ·the people of this time [L this generation]. 26 Just as it was ·when Noah lived [L in the days of Noah; Gen. 6—9], so it will be ·when the Son of Man comes again [L in the days of the Son of Man]. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying, and ·giving their children to be married [or being given in marriage] until the day Noah entered the boat. Then the flood came and ·killed [destroyed] them all. 28 It will be the same as ·during the time [L in the days] of Lot. People were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and ·sulfur [T brimstone] rained down from ·the sky [heaven] and ·killed [destroyed] them all [Gen. 19]. 30 This is how it will be ·when [L the day] the Son of Man ·comes again [L is revealed].

31 “On that day, a person who is on the roof [C roofs were typically flat and used as extra rooms] and whose belongings are in the house should not ·go inside [L come down] to get them. A person who is in the field should not ·go back home [L turn back]. 32 Remember Lot’s wife [C who was judged for longingly looking back at Sodom; Gen. 19:15–17, 26]. 33 Those who try to ·keep [preserve; keep secure] their lives will lose them. But those who ·give up [lose; let go of] their lives will save them.

34 I tell you, on that night two people will be sleeping in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left.

35 There will be two women grinding grain together; one will be taken, and the other will be left.

|36 Two people will be in the field. One will be taken, and the other will be left.|”[b]

37 ·The followers [L They] asked Jesus, “·Where will this be [L Where], Lord?”

Jesus answered, “Where there is a ·dead body [corpse], there the vultures will gather [C the carnage will make the place of judgment obvious to all].”

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 17 - Expanded Bible

Sin and Forgiveness - Jesus said to his ·followers [disciples], “·Things that cause people to sin [Stumbling blocks; Causes of sin; Temptations] ·will happen [are inevitable; it is impossible for them not to come], but ·how terrible for [woe to] the person who causes them to happen! It would be...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[grafted branch]

My opinion is all of that happens real quick.
Angels have jobs to do and they do not delay in carrying out orders from Christ.
Just for a quick thought on it.

In Luke 17:31 people who are on the roof are not supposed to come down and get their stuff, the same with the people in the field.

It doesn’t seem like it happens in a blink of an eye if there is time for people to consider whether or not they should get their stuff, though.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[Scott Downey]

In Luke 17:31 people who are on the roof are not supposed to come down and get their stuff, the same with the people in the field.

It doesn’t seem like it happens in a blink of an eye if there is time for people to consider whether or not they should get their stuff, though.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Yes, quick happening stuff there.
About coming down from roof to get your stuff, well that won't do you any good as we shall all be changed, and the earth and heaven is changed.
Perhaps more about preparing the attitude of a person's heart, not to hold on to the things of this world, remember Lot's wife, how she looked back, and suffered for it.

 

[Scott Downey]

We all have our pet projects do we? Job priorities, things left undone, hobbies, regrets, things we love to do on this earth. But when this judgment comes on the world, do not look back to your past life.

Time to move on with God. The times are changing.
Hebrews 9
28 so Christ was offered as a sacrifice one time to ·take away [bear] the sins of many people [Is. 53:12].

And he will ·come [appear] a second time, not to offer himself for sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

 

[grafted branch]

Yes, quick happening stuff there.
About coming down from roof to get your stuff, well that won't do you any good as we shall all be changed, and the earth and heaven is changed.
Perhaps more about preparing the attitude of a person's heart, not to hold on to the things of this world, remember Lot's wife, how she looked back, and suffered for it.

Well, I would say it takes longer than a twinkling of an eye to consider whether I should or shouldn’t get my stuff when I get off the roof. In a twinkling of an eye would be like getting stuck by lightning, no time to even think about getting out of the way.

 

[grafted branch]

We all have our pet projects do we? Job priorities, things left undone, hobbies, regrets, things we love to do on this earth. But when this judgment comes on the world, do not look back to your past life.

Time to move on with God. The times are changing.
Hebrews 9
28 so Christ was offered as a sacrifice one time to ·take away [bear] the sins of many people [Is. 53:12].

And he will ·come [appear] a second time, not to offer himself for sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Yes, I’ve already moved on from this world because I don’t know if I’ll have a heart attack in the next moment or not. So really a Christian is always ready but for some reason we are given similar instructions in Like 17:31 as those in Matthew 24 about fleeing when they see the AOD.

 

[Scott Downey]

Well, I would say it takes longer than a twinkling of an eye to consider whether I should or shouldn’t get my stuff when I get off the roof. In a twinkling of an eye would be like getting stuck by lightning, no time to even think about getting out of the way.

Similar idea about Christ's admonition on watching for the return of the Master. To be ready for His return for His bride, which is made up of us.

Matthew 25

The Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins​

“Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.

6 “And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom [a]is coming; go out to meet him!’ 7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.

11 “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ 12 But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’

13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour [b]in which the Son of Man is coming.

 

[CadyandZoe]

In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 the dead in Christ shall rise first then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up. In Matthew 13:30 both grow together until the harvest then the tares are gathered first and bundled then the wheat is gathered into the barn.

In the parable of the tares the tares are gathered first and bundled by the angels in the field, which you have stated is the world or entire planet. Both tares and wheat grow together in the field or planet unto that harvest. From Matthew 13:40 we know it happens at the end of this age, not after this age is already over.

Would this be the sequence of events for Amil, 1)the tares are gathered and bundled, 2)the dead in Christ rise, 3)those who remain are caught up, 4)tares put in the fire, and 5)wheat put in the barn?

BTW if anyone else wants to give their opinion on what the sequence looks like, I would be interested in looking at it.

There is a thousand-year separation between the rapture of the church and the final judgment.

 

[Scott Downey]

Yes, I’ve already moved on from this world because I don’t know if I’ll have a heart attack in the next moment or not. So really a Christian is always ready but for some reason we are given similar instructions in Like 17:31 as those in Matthew 24 about fleeing when they see the AOD.

Well, that would occur as a world event before He actually returns, is my thinking

 

[grafted branch]

There is a thousand-year separation between the rapture of the church and the final judgment.

Ok, so how does the sequence of events happen with a future millennium? Do you see the dead in Christ rising first a separate event than the tares being gather and bundled first? I have a hard time believing the Amil view of having two firsts at the last day.

 

[Rockerduck]

There is going to be one last time, but it's happening now. Every time someone dies, he is separated. Christ knows His own, and I believe He will come for His own and then the wrath will start.

 

[Davidpt]

Well, I would say it takes longer than a twinkling of an eye to consider whether I should or shouldn’t get my stuff when I get off the roof. In a twinkling of an eye would be like getting stuck by lightning, no time to even think about getting out of the way.

In Matthew 24 Jesus places that in the beginning of great tribulation. The beginning of great tribulation is not the end of the world meant in Matthew 13. I don't know why this subject is being brought up since it has zero to do with the end of this world in neither Luke 17 nor Matthew 24?

But even so, as to the end of the world, all these things basically happening in a twinkling of an eye, totally absurd. Some views just don't like to have to explain things. Too much work involved. It's easier to let this in a twinkling of an eye explain everything. Now there is nothing to explain. Now any kind of sequence is irrelevant. Funny though, if a sequence of some kind is not relevant, what in the world is with all this 'first' nonsense? After all, that's what it would be, nonsense, if this in the twinkling of an eye basically explains everything. The dead in Christ shall rise first. First gather the tares to be burned. Nonsense like that. So on and so on.

 

[PinSeeker]

And being (born again) = that is not water baptism.

The water baptism in churches is not equivalent to being born again of water and the Spirit (John 3:5). John himself said, "I baptize with water, but among you stands One you do not know, even He Who comes after me, the strap of Whose sandal I am not worthy to untie... He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit'" (John 1:26-33). It is Jesus Who baptizes "with the Holy Spirit and fire" (Matthew 3:11; Luke 3:16), and it is this baptism that is effectual unto salvation.

You posted similar in the last post.

Okay, well, it's still true...

You are erroneously equating the 9 spiritual gifts, (Paul's teaching) ..with "doctrine for the church" that every born again believer is to learn from Paul's Doctrine.

To be honest, Behold, I don't even know what you mean by this. But no, I'm not equating those two things at all.

Learning about the 9 Gifts of the Spirit, are a very small part of Paul's Theology-Doctrine...

He talks/writes about many other things, yes. But that doesn't somehow make what he says about the gifts of the Spirit unimportant to any degree. Which... I don't think you're suggesting, but just to say... yeah.

...once you understand that if a person believes they can lose their salvation...

They cannot. We are kept by God's power, not our own, lest we would certainly fail. Paul says:

"we are more than conquerors through Him Who loved us... (nothing) in all creation (can) separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:39) and "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Romans 11:29).​

And Peter says:

"God... has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:3-5).​

And of course Jesus Himself says:

"this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:39-40).​

​

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are One" (John 10:27-30)​

If anyone believes that even after having been gifted and called by God in this way it is even then possible for one to lose his or her salvation, it is ~ at least inadvertently ~ not understanding (not fully, anyway) of at least four things:

• that faith is of God, His "assurance of things hoped for..." and by the Spirit, the "conviction" worked in us by the Spirit "of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). To then say it is still possible to lose our salvation is in effect saying that faith is not really faith, which sounds perfectly ridiculous, but that's really what it is tantamount to.
• that God is more powerful than man, and that His is thus able to keep us from stumbling, and so in effect saying that man is more powerful than God and able to overcome His purposes, which also is a ridiculous thought
• that God "is able to keep us from stumbling," which Jude says in verse 24 of his brief letter.
• that Jesus was... telling the truth... <smile> ...in John 6 and John 10 above. Or possibly that John quoted Jesus correctly, maybe... <smile>

I think we actually agree on this, which is the strange thing...

...if a person believes they can lose their salvation, then this proves they have no TRUST In Christ, to keep them saved.

That's interesting that you say that, Behold, because, yes, I agree, it is Christ Who keeps us saved. So with this statement, you seem to be affirming "OSAS," no? I mean, if you do trust in Christ to keep us saved, then you do actually believe in "OSAS."

See...

<chuckles>

...there is Trust in Christ to keep you saved, that is REAL FAITH...

Right, but Who is the Author of that trust, Behold? I think you agree... Jesus is the Author and Perfector (or Finisher in other English translations, but there is no difference) of our faith (Hebrews 12:2), right? So again, fortunately, the Bible ~ God, actually, the Spirit ~ defines 'faith' for us, so none of us can really argue about what it is; faith is of God, His "assurance of things hoped for..." and by the Spirit, the "conviction" worked in us by the Spirit "of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). So, gifted to us by God, because as Paul says, "by grace you have been saved through faith, (a)nd this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8), and Paul is also sure to say that faith is a gift of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12... "varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit... God empowers them all in everyone," specifically in verse 9... "to another faith by the same Spirit..."

, and then there is trust in anything else to try to stay saved, that is false faith. False faith, is always legalistic, because its based on SELF Righteousness, vs "Christ's Righteousness".

Absolutely agree. This is exactly what James calls a dead faith in chapter 2 of his letter.

See...

<chuckles>

...no one on the day they Trusted in Christ, believes they have to keep themselves saved.

Well, I hope not, but we can't be sure of that, really. I would say that all of us, at least to some small degree, think that we have to keep ourselves saved, which is to say we don't perfectly trust in Christ... precisely because we are still sinners and fall short of the glory of God... even though we know to trust fully in Christ. In this life, we cannot fully be free of sin.

But later, they begin to believe this, and that is when their legalism is born...

Maybe so, yes.

that will soon replaces any type of real faith in Christ.

If we have true faith, nothing can displace it. See above. However, yes, we can... oh... cloud things up for ourselves, for sure. But still, the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Paul told all Christians to "be a follower of ME, as i follow Christ", and that means.......lifestyle, ministry, and doctrine.

Sure. Absolutely.

You've not learned this yet, and thats not something to "smile" about, actually.

<eyeroll> Sigh...

I dont post theological opinions.

In... your opinion. Well, okay, I mean, I would say the same thing, and you can very much likewise call that my opinion.

I only teach "Pauline Theology".

Okay, well, me, too... <smile> And Peter's, and James's, and... well, the writer of Hebrews... and Matthew's, Mark's, Luke's, and John's... and Jesus's, of course, I'm not suggesting you don't, but, yeah.

The evidence is, that if you accuse me falsely, you get corrected on the forum.

I'm not accusing you or anyone else of anything, Behold.

Its happening a lot in our discussion, so far.

Oh, im not mistaken about you...

You are. I think we actually agree on quite a bit here, which is the really strange thing...

...little one.

LOL! Ahhh, yeah, your thoughts betray you (Darth Vader; a "Return of the Jedi" reference) <smile>. So, yes, puffed up, as I said... Hm. But again, I think we actually agree on quite a bit here, which is the really strange thing...

Grace and peace to you.