Can a tare become saved?

[grafted branch]

Holy goodness, dude. Disagreeing with people is treating them worse than tares? This is a forum where debate is expected. Sharing my opinions is not a case of mistreating people. If things get personal, sure, that's wrong. And I have admitted as such and have been making an effort to cut down on that type of thing.

Well yea, if you don’t allow a brother or sister to increase their view while a tare is allowed to increase their view then that is how I perceive you. But now I see you are claiming you wouldn’t allow a tare to increase either, so I have to ask you this now, are you a servant or not? The servants of the householder are told to allow the tares to grow/increase in Matthew 13:27-30.

(This conversation is like pealing an onion back layer by layer folks, I never know what I’m going to find at the core) Who do you think the servants are in Matthew 13:27-30?

 

[Scott Downey]

Well yea, if you don’t allow a brother or sister to increase their view while a tare is allowed to increase their view then that is how I perceive you. But now I see you are claiming you wouldn’t allow a tare to increase either, so I have to ask you this now, are you a servant or not? The servants of the householder are told to allow the tares to grow/increase in Matthew 13:27-30.

(This conversation is like pealing an onion back layer by layer folks, I never know what I’m going to find at the core) Who do you think the servants are in Matthew 13:27-30?

Likely the angels of God.

 

[grafted branch]

Likely the angels of God.

Well in Matthew 13:30 the servants are told that the reapers will gather at the harvest, then in vs 41 the angels are the ones gathering. It doesn’t seem likely that the servants are the reapers/angels by the way the parable is written.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well yea, if you don’t allow a brother or sister to increase their view while a tare is allowed to increase their view then that is how I perceive you.

Why in the world are you comparing a parable that contrasts children of the kingdom with children of the wicked one (saved people with unsaved people) with contrasting Amills and Premills and/or Postmills (all who are saved)? This makes no sense whatsoever. It's insane.

But now I see you are claiming you wouldn’t allow a tare to increase either,

Huh? Where does the parable say anything about allowing tares to increase? What does that even mean? Tares growing in the same field as wheat has nothing to do with allowing the ones who are represented by the tares, which are the children of the wicked one (Matt 13:38) to spread false teaching without any resistance. You are contorting the parable to be about something entirely different than what it's actually about.

so I have to ask you this now, are you a servant or not? The servants of the householder are told to allow the tares to grow/increase in Matthew 13:27-30.

You are completely misinterpreting what it means for the tares to grow in the field. Remember, the tares represent the children of the wicked one. Are you suggesting that we should just allow children of the wicked one to spread falsehood without making any effort to defend the truth and refute their falsehood that comes from their father, the devil?

(This conversation is like pealing an onion back layer by layer folks,

This conversation is like watching an episode of The Twilight Zone as far as I'm concerned. You're just taking the parable where it was never intended to go. Making it about Amills vs. Premillls instead of saved people in the kingdom being contrasted with unsaved people of the devil and nonsense like that. Unbelievable.

I never know what I’m going to find at the core) Who do you think the servants are in Matthew 13:27-30?

This is a very easy question because Jesus explained who they are so that we don't have to guess. Observe...

Matthew 13:27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

Here is Jesus's explanation of what everything in the parable represents, including the servants/harvesters who separate the wheat from the weeds/tares.

Matthew 13:36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

There it is. The servants/harvesters who separate the wheat (people of the kingdom) from the weeds/tares (people of the evil one/devil) are angels.

 

[grafted branch]

Huh? Where does the parable say anything about allowing tares to increase? What does that even mean? Tares growing in the same field as wheat has nothing to do with allowing the ones who are represented by the tares, which are the children of the wicked one (Matt 13:38) to spread false teaching without any resistance. You are contorting the parable to be about something entirely different than what it's actually about.

Are you serious? Matthew 13:30Let both grow together until the harvest:

Is there something you don’t understand about that? The word “grow together” <4885> means to grow together, to increase together.

Context: The Greek verb συναυξάνω appears in the New Testament to convey the idea of growth in unity, particularly within the body of Christ. This term emphasizes the collective increase or development of believers as they mature in faith and love. The concept is rooted in the understanding that spiritual growth is not merely an individual endeavor but a communal one, where believers are interconnected and mutually edify one another.

There it is. The servants/harvesters who separate the wheat (people of the kingdom) from the weeds/tares (people of the evil one/devil) are angels.

Ok fair enough, then would you say it’s ok for the wheat to block the tares from growing together?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I don't accept any of the above either. But you left two things out that the majority of Christendom has adopted and that are based on tradition as opposed to scripture. And both of them your church accepts. Sunday sacredness and an earthly paradise at the second coming. You aren't that different or unique after all.

Let me just correct you there….we have no “Sunday sacredness” at all. Sunday is the first day of the week so not what Jews would have observed as a Sabbath. That is entirely a Catholic invention and follows the pagan Romans in sun worship….a day dedicated to their god…..with Pontifex Maximus ruling over the “faithful” and controlling their beliefs and conduct, always with the fear of “hell”….which does not even exist as a place of ECT.

We do not observe a Sabbath either as the Sabbath law applied only to Jews….those Jews who became Christians did not have to observe the Sabbath because there is no instruction from Jesus to do so once the law was abolished…his death ended the law. (Romans 10:4)

It was part of the law which applied to no other nations. Please find me a Scripture where Christians are instructed to observe the Sabbath.

And the “earthly paradise” is scripturally correct because not all Christians are chosen for a position in God’s Kingdom as “kings and priests”….because that would negate the fact that they are chosen for that role in heaven. (Rev 20:6) Kings need subjects and sinners need priests to guide them in worship. There are no sinners in heaven…only on earth who, under the rulership of God’s Kingdom, will be brought back to sinless perfection at the end of the 1000 years so that redeemed mankind can finally be rid of satan and sin forever. During the 1000 years of its tenure, humans will be led back to the life that Adam stole from them.

Just out of curiosity, are you an Seventh Day Adventist, Brakelite?
Do you subscribe to all of their doctrines?

As for my testimony. It was real. No-one can argue against that. I was literally born again of the Spirit of God and became a new creature. As have all other true believers. Our experiences may be different. But then result is the same. Union with Christ and His Father. There are things of course we all need to learn. Truth doesn't come in one gulp else we be overwhelmed. But my experience...my past... The way God led me throughout my life and provided for every contingency along the way, I cannot deny. It has nothing to do with theology, philosophy, or doctrine. It was always about relationship.
"I know Him in Whom I believe".

Your experience is yours to respond to as you wish. Yet all those who claim to be “born again” have had different experiences, and it has not drawn them together at all, because you all support different truths. (1 Cor 1:10) where is the unity? The “born again” are as divided as everyone else.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are you serious?

Yes, of course. Are you?

Matthew 13:30Let both grow together until the harvest:

Is there something you don’t understand about that?

No. There seems to be something you don't understand about that, though.

The word “grow together” <4885> means to grow together, to increase together.

That is the only verse where that Greek word is used, so are you willing to be honest enough to acknowledge that we have to speculate at least to some extent about what it means since we have no other verse we can look at to help us see what the word means exactly?

Context: The Greek verb συναυξάνω appears in the New Testament to convey the idea of growth in unity, particularly within the body of Christ. This term emphasizes the collective increase or development of believers as they mature in faith and love. The concept is rooted in the understanding that spiritual growth is not merely an individual endeavor but a communal one, where believers are interconnected and mutually edify one another.

Where did this nonsense come from? Why do you constantly forget that the tares are described as "the children of the wicked one"? You think "children of the wicked one" are "within the body of Christ"? Get serious. The wicked one is, of course, the devil, so the tares are children of the devil. Remember that we agreed that the parable should be looked at from God's perspective? So, these are people that God Himself would call children of the devil. The same ones who end up being cast into the fire at the end of the age. You think such people are "within the body of Christ"? Seriously?

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

You expect me to believe that those who are "of the devil", which is the evil fallen angel dude who "sinneth from the beginning", and are those who are not of God and "doeth not righteousness" and "loveth not his brother" are within the body of Christ. Please tell me you are not being serious.

Ok fair enough, then would you say it’s ok for the wheat to block the tares from growing together?

Them growing together does not mean children of the kingdom and children of the devil grow together in unity. My goodness, how can that make any sense? Do you feel unity with people who reject Christ and love to sin? Do you grow in unity with them? Of course not, man. Come on. Wheat and tares growing together in the field just means that you allow the wheat and tares to grow from being seeds until the harvest and waiting to pull them up until then. That's it. Don't read any more into it than that. It has nothing to do with them being in unity, but rather has to do with letting them continue to be in the field without pulling the tares up before the wheat, and instead pulling them up at the same time at the harvest (end of the age).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't accept any of the above either. But you left two things out that the majority of Christendom has adopted and that are based on tradition as opposed to scripture. And both of them your church accepts. Sunday sacredness and an earthly paradise at the second coming. You aren't that different or unique after all.

Please do not say things like this that are not true. There are MANY things that are different between Jehovah's Witnesses and "the majority of Christendom" or should I say "Non-Seventh day Adventists?". Is that what you really mean? Anyway, "the majority of Christendom" believes that Jesus is God and JWs do not. That's a HUGE difference. The majority of Christendom believes that Jesus's death paid for our sins and not that we pay for our own sins by our own deaths like JWs believe. I could go on and on with the differences between JWs and "the majority of Christendom".

 

[Scott Downey]

Well in Matthew 13:30 the servants are told that the reapers will gather at the harvest, then in vs 41 the angels are the ones gathering. It doesn’t seem likely that the servants are the reapers/angels by the way the parable is written.

The first time Jesus tells the story, it is a parable, and it uses different words than when Christ gives the explanation of what the parable means.

The disciples later ask Christ what does the parable mean, explain to us the parable, and He directly tells them without the story element.

The second time, Christ is more specific about what is happening at the end of the world

Angels don't all do the same things, they have different job assignments, in my opinion.
God delegates authorities to various ones, and there are angelic hierarchies.
And there are a whole lot of angels. Likely as many as there are people on the earth, innumerable numbers of angels.

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the [j]general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

From what I understand, a third of the angels fell and rebelled with Satan, that left 2/3 to remain as the holy angels.

Mark 8:38
For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

 

[grafted branch]

Where did this nonsense come from?

Biblehub

You think "children of the wicked one" are "within the body of Christ"? Get serious.

They were in the kingdom.

Them growing together does not mean children of the kingdom and children of the devil grow together in unity. My goodness, how can that make any sense?

I already explained that. The tares were people who continued to rely on the old covenant requirements for their sins. That is why we see them in the church up until 70AD, which was a harvest at the end of that age. They were treated with brotherly love as seen in the book of Acts.

You do realize there are two harvests in Revelation 14, right?

Do you feel unity with people who reject Christ and love to sin? Do you grow in unity with them? Of course not, man. Come on.

Right, and that’s why I have to reject your view, it doesn’t added up with what the parable says. You not only have to make the tares all the unsaved in general, you then have to have tares being able to change into wheat, then you have to change the meaning of “growing together”to something other than what some of the Greek experts say, you have to deny a harvest in 70AD, and who knows what else you have up your sleeve.

It’s been fun having this conversation but I’m going to call it here and keep my view, I am more convinced than ever that the tares do not represent all the unsaved.

 

[grafted branch]

The first time Jesus tells the story, it is a parable, and it uses different words than when Christ gives the explanation of what the parable means.

The disciples later ask Christ what does the parable mean, explain to us the parable, and He directly tells them without the story element.

The second time, Christ is more specific about what is happening at the end of the world

Angels don't all do the same things, they have different job assignments, in my opinion.
God delegates authorities to various ones, and there are angelic hierarchies.
And there are a whole lot of angels. Likely as many as there are people on the earth, innumerable numbers of angels.

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the [j]general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

From what I understand, a third of the angels fell and rebelled with Satan, that left 2/3 to remain as the holy angels.

Mark 8:38
For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

I don’t think it really matters that much about who the servants were, most of the commentaries I looked at say the servants are elders or those in authority in the church. I did see one commentary that suggested it could be the angels but also thought they could be elders.

The point I was trying to make with SI was that a command went out to allow both the tares and wheat to grow together and that command was to a higher authority than the wheat. It would stand to reason that the wheat would also want to obey that command.