Can salvation be lost

[kcnalp]

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

Now of course you presume "depart from the faith" means that born again believers depart from saving faith in Christ and lose their salvation, but that is inconclusive.

You can't "depart from the Faith" unless you're in the Faith.

 

[charity]

'Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes,
that they may also obtain the salvation
which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
It is a faithful saying:
For if we be dead with Him, we shall also live with Him:
If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him:
if we deny Him, He also will deny us:
If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful:
He cannot deny himself.'
(2 Timothy 2:10-13)

 

[mailmandan]

'I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away:
and every branch that beareth fruit,
He purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.'
(Joh 15:1-2)

Hello @mailmandan,

Thank you, I can only deal with one aspect at the moment, and that is in relation to John 15. For which I sought help from a study book that I have, entitled, 'Life Through His Name', by Charles Welch, so I cannot take credit for what follows, though it is not a direct quote:-

In John 15:1-2, the Lord Jesus states that He is the'True Vine', not the 'type' and 'shadow' of the TRUE, but 'The True Vine'. The 'Type 'in the Old Testament represented Israel (Psalm 80:8; Isaiah 5:1-7). Israel failed to fulfil the glorious purpose of their calling, but in this as in all else Christ is the answer and the fulfilment. He is The True Vine of which failing Israel was but the shadow. The husbandman(The Father) who in Isaiah 5 cried, 'What could have been done more to My vineyard, that I have not done in it?' now tends the True Vine, and Scripture testifies that He was 'well pleased', and 'well-pleasing' is associated with 'fruitfulness' in Colossians 1:10 and Romans 15:26-28 and Hebrews 15:15-16.

In John 15:1-17, the illustration of the Vine and the branches finds its realisation in the Lord and His chosen, and in both sections the concept of fruitfulness leads on to answered prayer. The 'branches' that 'abide' are called 'disciples', while those 'chosen ones' who 'abide' are called'friends'.

The words translated, 'branch', in John 15 occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, it is the Greek word,'klema', and is used in the Septuagint for the vine (Ezekiel 17:6-7), the word is derived from 'klao' 'to break' and suggests the frailty of the branches. Ezekiel 3-5 suggests that the vine if it bears no fruit is useless for much else.

'And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Son of man, What is the vine tree more than any tree,
or than a branch which is among the trees of the forest?
Shall wood be taken thereof to do any work?
or will men take a pin of it to hang any vessel thereon?
Behold, it is cast into the fire for fuel;
the fire devoureth both the ends of it, and the midst of it is burned.
Is it meet for any work?
Behold, when it was whole, it was meet for no work:
how much less shall it be meet yet for any work,
when the fire hath devoured it, and it is burned?'
(Ezekiel 15:1-5)

The disciples would have been familiar with this reference to the vine in Ezekiel and would see the Lord's insistence upon 'fruit' or 'failure'.

It is said that the Husbandman treats the branch that bears no fruit, 'He taketh (it) away' (John 15:2), Does it mean that the unfruitful branch is cut out? The Greek Lexicon suggests from the usage of the word in Scripture that the word means 'to lift' 'raise' or 'take up'. The idea is not necessarily that the husbandman cuts away the unfruitful branch, it rather suggests patient care: raising the branch, training it, lifting it unto the air and sunshine, so that He can say at the end, 'what could have been done more?' (Isaiah 5:4). This attitude, too, is in the spirit of Isaiah 42:3, 'A bruised reed shall He not break'. The Husbandman also gives attention to those branches that do bear fruit, 'and every branch that beareth fruit, He purgeth (kathairo - cleanse) it, that it may bring forth more fruit.' The spiritual interpretation of this 'pruning' or 'purging' is supplied by the Lord Himself, 'Now (ie., already) ye are clean (katharos) through the word which I have spoken unto you' (John 15:3).

The word translated 'now' is better translated 'already' as in John 3:18; 11:17; 19:33, and as kathoros occurs nowhere else in this Gospel other than 13:10-11, it is most evident that chapter 15 must be read in the light of that previous passage. There we learn that there was a cleansing which was once and forever finished, a cleansing that was continuous and experimental, and a cleansing in which one at least of those who sat with the Lord (Judas) had no share. So in the figure of the vine and the branches: the fact that the Husbandman did not cut away the unfruitful branch is parallel with the fact that every believer is once and forever clean; the fact that even a fruitful branch was pruned or purged is parallel with the subsequent washing of the disciples feet, cleansed though they were once for all, and the further fact that Judas was not reckoned among those thus cleansed is set forth in figure:- 'If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a (the) branch, and is withered' (15:6). 'The branch' here looks especially to Judas.

There is so much more said concerning this passage of Scripture which would be lovely to share with you, but time will now allow. I hope you enjoy reading this. There are other things which I would like to consider which you included in your entries, but I will have to content myself with this.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Thank you for sharing, but I'm a bit confused on where you stand. Do you understand branches that abide and don't abide as both representing believers? How do you understand cast out as a branch and is withered, thrown into the fire, and burned?

 

[mailmandan]

You can't "depart from the Faith" unless you're in the Faith.

Those who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith can certainly depart from it, without having saving faith in Christ.
See 1 John 2:19.

 

[kcnalp]

'
if we deny Him, He also will deny us:

Amen!

 

[kcnalp]

Those who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith can certainly depart from it, without having saving faith in Christ.
See 1 John 2:19.

What? lol

 

[mailmandan]

What? lol

I did not expect you to understand.

 

[kcnalp]

I did not expect you to understand.

It's amazing how OSASers can bend and twist Scripture to fit their doctrine.

Luke 13:23-24 (NKJV)
23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them, 24 "STRIVE to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

People don't have to STRIVE to be saved. They STRIVE to stay saved!

 

[Amazed@grace]

Those who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith can certainly depart from it, without having saving faith in Christ.
See 1 John 2:19.

True. The scriptural support for , "nominal" apostles, or Christians.

 

[Amazed@grace]

'Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes,
that they may also obtain the salvation
which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
It is a faithful saying:
For if we be dead with Him, we shall also live with Him:
If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him:
if we deny Him, He also will deny us:
If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful:
He cannot deny himself.'
(2 Timothy 2:10-13)

Amen!

 

[mailmandan]

It's amazing how OSASers can bend and twist Scripture to fit their doctrine.

Luke 13:23-24 (NKJV)
23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them, 24 "STRIVE to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

People don't have to STRIVE to be saved. They STRIVE to stay saved!

Jesus is not teaching type 2 works salvation here. Strive to enter through the narrow gate signifies a struggle against conflict. Christ was not suggesting that anyone could merit eternal life by striving or working hard enough to earn it. No matter how rigorously people labor, sinners could never save themselves by works. Entering through the narrow gate is nonetheless difficult because of it's cost in terms of human pride and desire for sinful living which prevents them from choosing to repent and believe the gospel. Salvation through faith in Christ is the narrow gate.

 

[Amazed@grace]

Jesus is not teaching type 2 works salvation here. Strive to enter through the narrow gate signifies a struggle against conflict. Christ was not suggesting that anyone could merit eternal life by striving or working hard enough to earn it. No matter how rigorously people labor, sinners could never save themselves by works. Entering through the narrow gate is nonetheless difficult because of it's cost in terms of human pride and desire for sinful living which prevents them from choosing to repent and believe the gospel. Salvation through faith in Christ is the narrow gate.

I see the wide gate as the world and the ways of the material, carnal, world. Lots of room to make it through because anything goes.
While the narrow gate is Jesus. The way, the truth, and the life.
Jesus said, no one comes to God but through him.

There is also that story about this being a parable related to the Jerusalem wall.The wide gate there was the main entrance into the city.Merchants,visitors,pilgrims.

The wide gate was locked at night to secure all inside. While, those who dwelt in Jerusalem knew of that narrow gate located at a different part of the wall. Narrow enough so that the usual traffic wouldn't be able to pass through.

As I recall it's likened unto the parable of the eye of the needle, and the rich man entering into heaven.

 

[Josho]

Can Salvation be lost? I was chatting with a friend about this today, I think the truth is God only really knows the answer to this question. We know God's grace is great, but how great? To what extent is God's great grace? Only God knows the full measure of His grace.

For those that turn their backs on God, we must remember the story of the Prodigal Son, and we must remember while they may give up on God, God has not given up on them, remember the parable of the Shepherd leaving the 99 sheep to find the 1 lost sheep, even though some Christians do backslide, God does not give up on them.

 

[Truman]

Oh, there is my hairbrush! I'd better use it while I still have something to use it on.

 

[Curtis]

Why didn’t he have the power to love his brother?

Absolutely.


Paul warns the church at Corinth to make sure they aren’t reprobates.


2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


He warns that some of the church that think they’re in the faith can actually have become reprobates.


The word reprobates is ADOKIMOS in the Greek, which becomes important in the verse where Paul himself says he has to subjugate his flesh (the flesh is worldly desires to sin) daily, lest after preaching salvation to others, he end up a castaway.


1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring itinto subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a CASTAWAY.


The word castaway is ADOKIMOS in the Greek.


Paul said he would end up a reprobate if he didn’t subjugate his flesh with its sinful desires, daily.


Paul never taught unconditional eternal security - in fact he taught the opposite.


Paul makes clear that AFTER we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and Paul warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:


Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,


Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.


Paul warns us over and over, that if we believers choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind isENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Verse 8:7 Paul warns above, that having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.


Will God let His enemies into heaven?


Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.


The verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.


Will God welcome His enemies into heaven?

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Will God welcome His enemies into heaven?

A: Yes, IF God Will Welcome HIS Chosen apostle Of GRACE, who Before WAS "God's WORST enemy," whom God HIMSELF "Saved By HIS GRACE And
MERCY," Because Of The Merits Of The Precious BLOOD Of Reconciliation,
Of HIS SON, The LORD JESUS CHRIST, Then:

Yes, All of God's former enemies, Saved By GRACE Through faith, ARE Welcome!
Amen?

 

[Curtis]

A: Yes, IF God Will Welcome HIS Chosen apostle Of GRACE, who Before WAS "God's WORST enemy," whom God HIMSELF "Saved By HIS GRACE And
MERCY," Because Of The Merits Of The Precious BLOOD Of Reconciliation,
Of HIS SON, The LORD JESUS CHRIST, Then:

Yes, All of God's former enemies, Saved By GRACE Through faith, ARE Welcome!
Amen?

No. Using examples of former enemies of God does not mean God will welcome current enemies into heaven -

 

[Gary Urban]

Paul never taught unconditional eternal security - in fact he taught the opposite.


Paul makes clear that AFTER we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and Paul warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:

Paul would most likely agree with Paul inspried from above .

Philipians 1: 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

In chapter 2 he expands on the understanding of the work of Jesus Christ's faith or called labor of love. ( our confidence) .as he works in us to both will and empower us to do his good pleasure . Some murmur like Jonah who wanted to die. He was spit out and dragged to perform the work of God, that worked in others like the Son of man Jesus. . . he did it with delight .

Philipians 1:13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

 

[thelord's_pearl]

Matthew 5:19, NIV: "Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

I don't know about you, but I would like to know what least in "the kingdom of heaven" looks like and I wouldn't want to be there and I like following God's goodness.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

For those of you who are concerned about breaking the least of the commandments, I would say that if you tried but failed it wasn't intentional but intentionally doing it without a care would bring about true breaking of the commandment. I'm not sure though but I would say we all have weaknesses. May there be discussion on this scripturally.